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Drevan

Drinking caffiene is not against Word of Wisdom

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Eat Drink and be merry for tommorow we die! Great philosophy. Enjoy this life all you want. Hit a few strip clubs, do a few lines. Cause what the hell, im enjoying life. Fine by me. You wont enjoy the next.

It's interesting that Mormons get all upset at assumption and conjecture and then throw all of the same whenever it suits them.

When did I say the above? Never. I don't go to strip clubs. I don't do a few lines. I don't do any lines. But I do drink beer. *gasp*....I drink the same substance that Joseph smith and Brigham Young drank!?!? 'To Hell for me' is right!

What part of my life do you think would offend God? Alcohol? Green Tea? Clubs that play live local music? Maybe it's owning pugs. They are ugly.

I have no problem with "eat, drink and be merry". And if you've ever been to a Mormon pot luck thrown by chubby singles you'd admit that Mormons don't either (I went to a few before I realized all anyone brings are casseroles and, well, I don't like casseroles). But the next part, which implies we toss our life away at the expense of the next - I do have a problem with. I don't agree that enjoying this life means God tosses us from the next. In fact - I think God would have a problem with that line of thinking. "Live life to the hilt.". Jacob d. Jaegar. Great speaker and genuinely warm and funny man. Is he still alive, btw?

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Heh...did you read that study??

Pros

Moderate alcohol consumption may provide some health benefits. It can:

vs.

Cons

Excess alcohol consumption can lead to serious health problems, such as:

Did you catch that? Moderate vs. excessive. This does nothing for your point. Again, the same warnings would be issued for food consumption. Moderate vs. excessive.

---

I've not read the entire thread, so I apologize for interloping.

Not at all. Like I said - it would be tortuous to try. Just that there are lots of studies out there. antioxidants vs. flavenoids (sp?). Do they both have both? And why does a glass of beer give you the same results? Who knows. Either way - no one has shown that moderate alcohol consumption hurts the body in the least.

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Eat Drink and be merry for tommorow we die! Great philosophy. Enjoy this life all you want. Hit a few strip clubs, do a few lines. Cause what the hell, im enjoying life. Fine by me. You wont enjoy the next.

It's interesting that Mormons get all upset at assumption and conjecture and then throw all of the same whenever it suits them.

When did I say the above? Never. I don't go to strip clubs. I don't do a few lines. I don't do any lines. But I do drink beer. *gasp*....I drink the same substance that Joseph smith and Brigham Young drank!?!? 'To Hell for me' is right!

What part of my life do you think would offend God? Alcohol? Green Tea? Clubs that play live local music? Maybe it's owning pugs. They are ugly.

I have no problem with "eat, drink and be merry". And if you've ever been to a Mormon pot luck thrown by chubby singles you'd admit that Mormons don't either (I went to a few before I realized all anyone brings are casseroles and, well, I don't like casseroles). But the next part, which implies we toss our life away at the expense of the next - I do have a problem with. I don't agree that enjoying this life means God tosses us from the next. In fact - I think God would have a problem with that line of thinking. "Live life to the hilt.". Jacob d. Jaegar. Great speaker and genuinely warm and funny man. Is he still alive, btw?

Hmm...interesting i don't recall quoting you nor citing anything you said. Just making fun of the lame attitude. Oh, and prove BY and JS drank beer.

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t2t2,

The URL I gave you wasn't a study but was a simplified overview of pros and cons. Yes, I was aware of the excess versus moderation verbiage on the page, but I'm sure you read all the way down the page where it discusses the numerous risks of drug interactions, how age (weight also is critical) affects how the body handles alcohol, risks of exposing a heritable predisposition for alcohol addiction, and so on. Those issues are independent of moderate or excessive use. Then there is the final statement:

Above all, don't feel pressured to drink. Few medical experts, if any, advise nondrinkers to start drinking. But if you do drink and you're healthy, there's no need to stop as long as you drink responsibly and in moderation.

Sort of reminiscent of the tobacco refrain -- If you don't smoke, don't start, but if you do, try our brand! That is, if you smoke "and you're healthy". I wonder why insurance companies penalize people for using alcohol, given the many benefits.....

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. . . the numerous risks of drug interaction

Yes well there are numerous risks of drug interactions with detergents and cleaning solutions, should we all walk around dirty too? No, you just be aware of those interactions and don't allow them to happen, simple. At worst just never mix drugs and alcohol (very good advice in general).

how age (weight also is critical) affects how the body handles alcohol

All this is saying is that what is moderate and what is excessive is different for different people. Its absurd to give that as a reason for not drinking. Its just a matter of discovering your own limits very slowly (a single glass is not going to be "excessive" for ANYONE).

This is all very calculatable, its not like this is some kind of "wild card" that makes it too risky to drink. Its just that what is excessive varies from person to person.

risks of exposing a heritable predisposition for alcohol addiction, and so on. 

This is just silly. Come on. Alcohol addiction is actually very much like fat and sugar addiction, its not so much a physical addiction until its very late stages. This is like saying that no one should eat cake, or french fries, or hamburgers, ever, because they may expose a predisposition for fat and sugar addiction! Oh no, how dangerous! :P

I wonder why insurance companies penalize people for using alcohol, given the many benefits.....

This is simply not true.

Insurance companies do not penalize people for using alcohol, but I imagine you wouldn't have a reason to know that. Insurance companies ask people if they use alcohol at all so that they can use this information to understand other risk factors. For example, if someone has regular fender benders at night and they regularly use alcohol they may believe that they might be crashing because they have been drinking all night. If they have a history of violence they might assume that it could be related to regular alcohol consumption.

They penalize you for DWIs, car accidents, and all the usual things, NOT alcohol consumption. Knowing that your client consumes alcohol is simply part of understanding the client.

This is like saying that insurance companies penalize you for your race or gender, which is simply not true. They ask you about race and gender to get a fuller picture of you so that they can more accurately determine how much of a risk you are.

As always, I suggest that people stop trying to argue for the WoW on issues like alcohol consumption from a health perspective. Its simply going to be a draw for both sides of the argument.

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Bottom line is that the lord won't bless us if we don't obey. And you can't get a temple recommend for partake of the "don't" substancs.

I guess people will not learn the lesson of Samson.

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It's times like this that I am glad I can trust God on the no alcohol/coffee/whatever rule without needing to begin to justify anything.

I drink caffine on occasions. I breath in second hand smoke(my family smokes). I am obese. I have a nasty addiction to Kraft Singles.

All of us are weak against somthing. Many people in the church do struggle with keeping the Word of Wisdom. I find it touching that a person who struggled with smoking all their life was still temple worthy in all other areas of his life, and was able to hear from the Lord that his weakness was not enough to nullify the atoning grace of Jesus Christ.

We keep talking about the "letter of the law", and the "spirit of the law". You cannot recieve the latter without first being capable of listening to the Holy Ghost, which first of all explains why many in this thread do not understand, and promptly reject, the Word of Wisdom; stating that there are seemingly endless contridictions, or maybe confusions, or somthing else.

If beer doesn't hold any sort of devilish power, why then do people keep justifying trying to drink it? I first tasted beer when I was 3 years old. For a little toddler, I sure liked me booze(don't ask, I've got Irish and Scottish blood). I kept stealing my dad's beer for a long time. I continued to drink, while being underage mind you, and I never ever got drunk. When I first heard about the church, and Word of Wisdom, I decided that in order to better emulate my best friend, I wouldn't drink anymore. It wasn't untill after a party a few years ago that I had my final drink, and after that I've been dry ever since. Of course I still wanted to know if the non-alcoholic beer was okay, even though it had 0.5 percent alcohol in it. I finally decided that I will avoid, as much as possible, anything with alcohol. I had a bit of a problem, mainly concerning alcohol and coffee flavoured desserts, and I am still unsure about that. I have decided that non-alcoholic beer isn't right for me.

In this case, I went beyond the letter of the law and looked at the spirit of the law. Perhaps the more important thing than just abstaining from certain substances is also the sacrifice element. If you love God so much, would you give up beer if He asked you to? Well God did ask me to give up beer, and coffee, and tea(but not Ka-tea(inside joke). I have done what He asked of me. It's not sacrificing my only begotton son, like Abraham did, but it's a start.

We can stand here and fight over this issue, and never resolve it. In the end it's the "Why should I's?" Vs the "Why not's?". If you ask me, people who go out of their way to harass somebody because they made a choice not to partake in certain substances, is seriously misguided, and possibly even wicked. Rightous God fearing people do not tempt others to break promises they made to God, no matter whatever difference between doctrines the two might have. I woudln't tempt a Jehovah's Wittness with a blood transfusion, or to celebrate a birthday. I wouldn't go out of my way to try and offer a Jewish person some bacon or ham. I wouldn't start arguing with an athiest about the existance of God, and turn around and call them a heathen. I don't walk up to people and tell them they are going to hell. I don't think other people should even be questioning a mormon for abstaining from coffee and tea and the like. In fact, I don't think people have the right to question a person's decision to abstain from certain things.

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(a single glass is not going to be "excessive" for ANYONE).

Sorry to contradict you, but a single serving of alcohol is excessive for me, and not because of the Word of Wisdom. Let's just say I lost more inhibitions than I care to and showed extremely poor judgement. I quit drinking before I ever had contact with anyone from the LDS church.

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Have not read all post - but there is a great problem with covenants. For example there is a commandment "Keep the Sabath day holy". What is the covenant to keep the Sabath day holy? Usually this breaks down to a list of do's and don't's followed with a bunch of what if's. The problem is that there are principles that guide us in understandint but covenant is a promise between an individual and G-d.

I suggest that when a person (saint) is introduced to a princile that they make a covenant promise with G-d as to what they will do. Example: having learned about tything a person will then study tything (including asking others questions). Then in their private moments with G-d they will make a promise. "I will give $___ dollars from each pay check on the following Sunday - Please accept this offering as a token of my covenant and manifest by thy spirit thy aproval?"

Two things happen with such a covenant. First is what is known as the trial. This is a test allowed by G-d to determine one's conviction to G-d and their covenant. The second follows the trial and is the blessing and aproval of G-d.

Concerning the word of wisdom. My personal promise and covenant with G-d is to avoid all sources of caffene (among other things). This I have done according to my promise for more than 40 years. I have had many trials and tests allowing me to demonstrate to myself and to G-d my promisses. I have also had many times that G-d has demonstrated his aproval - for which I am thankful (one even saved my life). This is according to my promise for my covenant.

Each of us can promise G-d as to our covenants according to our understanding. To those that are given greater understanding - greater promisses are expected. "To whom much is given much is expected". It is also according to wisdom in G-d that we learn and grow - "line upon line, precept upon precept.

The promisses of other concerning their covenants may be of interest but there is nothing more important to your eternal happyness than the promisses you make and keep with G-d. As a frend and servant I encourage all to live by covenant and promise with the good things that G-d grants to us that we might come to understand and do as his spirit directs.

The Traveler

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Juxtaposed said:

Insurance companies do not penalize people for using alcohol, but I imagine you wouldn't have a reason to know that. Insurance companies ask people if they use alcohol at all so that they can use this information to understand other risk factors. For example, if someone has regular fender benders at night and they regularly use alcohol they may believe that they might be crashing because they have been drinking all night. If they have a history of violence they might assume that it could be related to regular alcohol consumption.

They penalize you for DWIs, car accidents, and all the usual things, NOT alcohol consumption. Knowing that your client consumes alcohol is simply part of understanding the client.

This is like saying that insurance companies penalize you for your race or gender, which is simply not true. They ask you about race and gender to get a fuller picture of you so that they can more accurately determine how much of a risk you are.

Precisely my point. Alcohol use determines your rates, just as gender does. Gender is indeed a risk factor, as your life insurance rates tend to be higher if you are a male -- males are penalized with higher rates. But gender we can't control. Alcohol use is indeed suggestive of various other risks, and your insurance rates are adjusted accordingly. You use, you pay more -- Isn't that a penalty? Rather simple. By the way, how many DWI's occur in the absence of alcohol? :P

Your first comment about simply not mixing drugs and alcohol is good advice, but certainly limits your drug options if you are a drinker, and may particularly put you at risk if you are using new drugs with which interactions may be very poorly known, or with which long-term interactive effects may emerge.

You also added, in reference to alcohol addiction:

This is just silly. Come on. Alcohol addiction is actually very much like fat and sugar addiction, its not so much a physical addiction until its very late stages. This is like saying that no one should eat cake, or french fries, or hamburgers, ever, because they may expose a predisposition for fat and sugar addiction! Oh no, how dangerous!

Uh, no. Not even close. Alcohol addiction has a strong heritability, with estimates that 40-60% of the addiction is genetically based, for example:

Reich T, Edenberg HJ, Goate A et al. (1998), Genome-wide search for genes affecting the risk for alcohol dependence. Am J Med Genet 81(3):207-215

Tsuang MT, Bar JL, Harley RM, Lyons MJ (2001), The Harvard twin study of substance abuse: what we have learned. Harv Rev Psychiatry 9(6):267-279.

Tsuang MT, Lyons MJ, Meyer JM et al. (1998), Co-occurrence of abuse of different drugs in men: the role of drug-specific and shared vulnerabilities. Arch Gen Psychiatry 55(11):967-972

among numerous other references. There is no such evidence for genetically-based addiction to cake or french fries. Your family may have a genetic history of alcohol addiction that surfaces in you when you try the stuff. Excessive use is certainly a problem (especially when one considers sociological costs in abuse, crime, family breakups, traffic and other accidents, lost work or reduced production quality, health care costs, stc.), but there are risks at all levels of use that can be easily avoided. Hence, the Mayo Clinic recommends that if you don't drink, don't start.

Finally, I am not defending the WOW based on its health benefits, but pointing out some of the risks associated with general alcohol use, and that the benefits that are often trumpeted for alcohol consumption are at least as accessible elsewhere through other, less risky products. There are numerous personal benefits that the WOW provides besides the health aspects, but I am aware that those elements become the focus of mockery by those who don't accept them, so there is little point in discussing them.

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I forgot.....

I also meant to ask Juxtaposed for some references on the statement that

...l there are numerous risks of drug interactions with detergents and cleaning solutions, should we all walk around dirty too?

Would you provide a number of examples, and suitable references, please? You can just email them to me. A part of my job entails ecotoxicology and environmental risk assessment, and I would be interested in the references. I am aware of very few such interactions. Are you referring only to dermal drugs, or internal compounds, as well?

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If beer doesn't hold any sort of devilish power, why then do people keep justifying trying to drink it?

If sushi were against the word of wisdom I would do the same.

Let's take your own case. Cheese. Devilish power? To some, obviously. :P Let's suppose it were against the WOW. OK....you believe, so you don't eat. But would you understand someone else who sits around talking about the joys of cheese? I bet you would. My wife could sit for days and talk about warm brie and crackers. Me? Cheese IS against my personal WOW since I have lactose issues. I love, no LOVE pizza....yet I have to eat it on rare occasions as a special treat. My loss. As a disclaimer - I write all this with a 1/2 eaten Krispy Kreme staring at me.

Should alcoholic beverages be against some people's WOW? Even if they're not Mormon? Sure. As another pointed out...alcoholism is hereditary. But so is obesity. Should McDonalds be off limits to someone with fat genes? Draw your own line. There are plenty of people with alcoholic parents who, because of that, watch what they drink. They know where it could lead...so they imbibe little, if at all. I have friends like that. I also have friends who come from overweight parents who watch what they eat for that reason only. Probably smart. I come from bigger parents, both of whom eat poorly, do not exercise and have each developed Type II diabetes. Yet they both have temple recommends. And I guess they should. They're good, honest, very devoted Mormons. Only...they're not healthy and it makes me sad to think that they likely won't live as long as they could have.

My point is that you can condemn alcohol all you want - for you. You believe that not only do you not need it in your life...God will bless you for it. I think that's great for you. But it is not THE path to health. And there are things that are fun, safe and enjoyable that you will miss out on. Again - fine for you. Just don't suppose your way is better. It's just better for you.

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Hence, the Mayo Clinic recommends that if you don't drink, don't start.

This is a misnomer. They are not recommending that you do not drink. They are recommending that you do not start drinking specifically for health reasons. Since moderate consumption of alcohol carries no specific risks they would never suggest that you will be healthier if you don't drink at all - and therefor, don't ever start.

As for insurance - if you and I are the same in every way (both healthy adults of the same age) except that I list myself as a moderate drinker - you will NOT recieve a lower insurance premium. That is false. The only place that is used is if you are a drinker AND have a history of tickets or accidents. Or if you are a drinker AND are diabetic. Etc.

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"Keep the Sabath day holy". What is the covenant to keep the Sabath day holy?

A lot of it has been left to personal judgement. What has been made clear, we've be told to try not to work on the Sabbath, try not to buy anything making others work on the Sabbath.

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John Russell, I am appreciating your intelligent comments and especially your effort to provide the references. Glad you decided to join the board.

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I heard that some bishop or stake president in Japan wasn't letting people in the temple because they drank soda. So, the current president of the church went down there an met with this person. When he sat down at this meeting, he pulls out a Pepsi, opens it, takes a drink, and askes, "Now what's the problem?"

That's pretty funny. :P

But probably not true. <_< Remember Paul's admonition about eating meat laid before idols. There was nothing wrong with it, but he wasn't going to do it if it offended anybody.

(I can also believe that church leaders in Japan can be overly literal. I lived there for many years, and saw it in action. True saints just laughed it off and did what they wanted. And no one got banned from the temple.)

Beowulf

Along the lines of this topic -- The WofW was for long treated as just a recommendation, and many Saints could not follow it. But as the 20th century progressed, it became increasingly enforced. Pres. Grant is the one who made it a pre-requisite for temple attendance, and talked often about it in General Conference. My favorite quote (from memory -- so don't quote me :unsure: ): "I was going to talk about something else (besides the WofW) at this conference, until I received some letters from brethren asking that I lay off this topic. It appears that you have not gotten the message, so I will have to talk about it again!"

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still waiting on reliable non anti-mormon proof BY and JS drank beer.....dont think whoever was talking about it, i wont name names, will produce it though.

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t2t2 said:

This is a misnomer. They are not recommending that you do not drink. They are recommending that you do not start drinking specifically for health reasons. Since moderate consumption of alcohol carries no specific risks they would never suggest that you will be healthier if you don't drink at all - and therefor, don't ever start.

Not a misnomer. You missed the point. If the benefits of alcohol are clear, as some have suggested on this thread, why would the Mayo Clinic NOT recommend starting to drink for health (or any other) reasons? As the Mayo recommendation pointed out "Few medical experts, if any, advise nondrinkers to start drinking."

Forgive my denseness, but I didn't follow the logic in your last sentence. It seems to be a concatenation of not-necessarily-linked ideas:

1. The Mayo Clinic would never suggest that you will be healthier if you don't drink at all (this point could be easily argued),

2. There are no specific risks associated with moderate alcohol use (again, highly debatable -- what is moderate for you may not be moderate for someone else; risks vary from person to person based on age, weight, genetic background, medical history, and so forth, even in orders of magnitude in difference), and

3. Don't ever start drinking (We're agreed). :P

What was it that you were actually saying in that last line? I honestly couldn't follow it.

t2t2 said:

As for insurance - if you and I are the same in every way (both healthy adults of the same age) except that I list myself as a moderate drinker - you will NOT recieve a lower insurance premium. That is false. The only place that is used is if you are a drinker AND have a history of tickets or accidents. Or if you are a drinker AND are diabetic. Etc.

Precisely. I never said that alcohol consumption was a stand-alone risk factor -- this position was imposed on me by others. However, alcohol consumption exacerbates many other risk factors, and penalizes the drinker when associated risks are realized. I think we are agreed on this. If I don't consume alcohol, and am involved in an accident, my insurance rates will be less severely affected than those of someone who drinks the stuff.

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Calmoriah,

Thanks for your kind posting and compliments (*blush*). I've been away from the boards for a few years, and it is fun to be back again. Lots of good folks here.

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Does anyone know where we can find the caffiene levels in Coke? How does it compare to the levels in like Coffee, medications, and chocolate?

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For the caffine content, if I had to guess I bet you could Email a coffee company like starbucks or something and maybe even the coke company itself. rick b.

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Well, it really depends on the type of coffee you have. But sodas are around 55 mg for 12 oz and coffee around 80-100 for 7 oz. It may be closer to 3 to 1, but I'm talking the same amount, not servings (one serving of coffee is around two 'servings' of pop).

If you check out the link at the bottom of the page there are several listings for various items.

As far as meds, check the label. They are required to have the amount on it. add-on, just checked excedrin-65 mg per caplet

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Well, it really depends on the type of coffee you have. But sodas are around 55 mg for 12 oz and coffee around 80-100 for 7 oz. It may be closer to 3 to 1, but I'm talking the same amount, not servings (one serving of coffee is around two 'servings' of pop).

If you check out the link at the bottom of the page there are several listings for various items.

As far as meds, check the label. They are required to have the amount on it. add-on, just checked excedrin-65 mg per caplet

:P Man, i gotta be drinking the equivalant of a pot of coffee a day sometimes then <_< . Just imagine the combo, working all day, slamming a six pack of coke at work, eating halloween candy, then an Alieve for the headache my employees give me at work...whoooo weeee no wonder i go to bed at like 2 am!! J/K. That rarely happens.

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