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Drevan

Drinking caffiene is not against Word of Wisdom

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In LDS history strong drinks was also meant to include hot chocolate

Source please, or are you just making this up just like everthing else you say?

If people live longer its probably due to health reasons, such as not eating too much sugar, and having a balanced diet. Nothing related to the WoW.

Step away from the key board and remove the foot from your mouth.

Sometimes you say the most ludicrous things and I think "There is no way this can be topped". Well you've topped yourself again, I am going to have to make a collection of the things you say and call it "the irrational thoughts of MU"

I take it you have never read the WoW have you? It not only talks about what isn't good for you but also what is. Anyone with the reading skills of a second grader could tell you it endorses a balanced diet.

**shakes head** "nothing related to the WoW" LOL!

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In LDS history strong drinks was also meant to include hot chocolate

Source please, or are you just making this up just like everthing else you say?

If people live longer its probably due to health reasons, such as not eating too much sugar, and having a balanced diet. Nothing related to the WoW.

Step away from the key board and remove the foot from your mouth.

Sometimes you say the most ludicrous things and I think "There is no way this can be topped". Well you've topped yourself again, I am going to have to make a collection of the things you say and call it "the irrational thoughts of MU"

I take it you have never read the WoW have you? It not only talks about what isn't good for you but also what is. Anyone with the reading skills of a second grader could tell you it endorses a balanced diet.

**shakes head** "nothing related to the WoW" LOL!

:P:unsure:<_< took the words right out of my mouth

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All I know is that I'm still waiting on the report that shows Mormons living to the age of 93, on average. Who was looking that up for us?

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Hello t2t2, Drevan said:"I could probably dig up the studies and post the sites or the info" Notice the word PROBABLY, which I personnaly think we will be waiting awhile but please remind him you never know. Rick b.

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I never said 93, read my post a little more closely please. And why does it matter? you wont believe it if i do.

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Jeff Lindsay has an exerpt from the associated press about the middle of the page on Enstrom's study of mormon health.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/WWisdom.shtml

You can also do a search on James Enstrom, who is the one that did the study, and you will find plenty of links on his study of mormon health.

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Hello t2t2, Drevan said:"I could probably dig up the studies and post the sites or the info" Notice the word PROBABLY, which I personnaly think we will be waiting awhile but please remind him you never know. Rick b.

after reading your post i just did a quick search on the internet and came up with a dozen sites about studies of the average life span of a LDS (86) member being the highest even above the Japanese (83). And it was even talked about and confirmed on Mike Wallace's 60 minute interview.

This is a quote from the Larry King interview confirming the UCLA research.

"Yes, this man I met here not too long ago at UCLA, Inkstrom (ph), I think his name is, who has conducted a study for some 14 years, taking a peer group of Latter-day Saints, a peer group of the other population, and reached a conclusion that because of the degree to which we observe the word of wisdom, Mormons have a life expectancy of from eight to 11 years longer.

Now, who in the world wouldn't give almost anything for eight to ten years of life? I have here with me, right now, a statement from "The Los Angeles Times" on this very fact. "The study conducted by UCLA tracks the morality rates and health practices of nearly 10,000 California high priests and their wives for 14 years. As a follow up to research Inkstrom published in 1989, the study confirms that the healthiest active Mormons have a life expectancy that is eight to 11 years longer than that of the general white population in the U.S.,"

8 to 11 years longer than the general white population..hmm...average life span of a male in the USA is what 75? 83 to 86 years old. Just like i said.

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Okay guys ice cold Frapachino coffees on me!!!

Its my treat!! You won't be violating the WOW since the coffee is not hot!

Tomorrow morning at the Starbucks on 16th and Wisconsin Ave here in Milwaukee.

MU Eagle

Drumroler- Yours might be spiked with hot coffee :P

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The study was done by James E. Enstrom of UCLA. His findings have been used to bolster the LDS WOW....but let's look at it in context.

1. His synopsis: "of almost 10,000 non-smoking, non-drinking, moderately active Mormons was a testament to the power of clean living: Middle-aged Mormon men had only 34 percent of the normal cancer death rate and only 14 percent of the normal cardiovascular-disease death rate."

2. Wanting to know if he could duplicate these results he: "analyzed a comparable group of white, non-smoking churchgoing men and women of all religions in Alameda County, California. He found similar health gains," (notice - these will be people who drink alcohol, tea, etc.)

3. However, Dr. Joseph Lyon, an epidemiologist from the University of Utah Medical Center, arrived at a different conclusion. "Utah LDS are 85 percent less likely to suffer from lung cancer than the national average, while non-LDS are 26 percent less likely and the less-active (LDS are only 17 percent less likely). "The most startling difference is in kidney cancer, where Utah LDS are 29 percent less likely to contract the disease and non-LDS are 30 percent less likely, but less-active LDS are 64 percent more likely," (Latter-day Sentinel, May 3, 1989 p. 11; emphasis mine).

4. "Mormons form a really good model because there's a large number who are really adhering to this doctrine," Enstrom said. (10,000 that he used)

You can extrapolate anything from these studies that you'd like (I've tried to find the most relevent quotes I could). I found several places that mentions this study was criticized by Mormons and others alike because it uses only 10,000 people to represent Mormons and stresses exercise - which says nothing about either the WOW or whether the average member actually exercises. Until a study is done on Mormons - and that's it - just Mormons, of whom many do not exercise or eat healthily, we will not know if the results of this study everyone touts means anything about the WOW. For all we know right now - it just means that those who exercise and don't smoke gain a lot of years and a huge bump in health - regardless of their religion.

About the 93 - sorry. I was meaning 83. 73 (which is where I thought the life expectancy was - it's actually 75) +10. Don't know why 93 was in my head.

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To me this is the way I see it, if your gonna die and go to hell it would be better to be here another 10 or so years. Hey MU Eagle just remember If I ever make it down your way I am gonna hit you up for that coffee. I love just plain black super strong coffee. Rick b.

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There goes Rick pretending to have some kind of authority and damning Christians who have faith in Jesus Christ. His self controdictions astound me.

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T2

They have had several studies about people who attend church, do not drink, smoke etc.. They have found that evangelicals also have a longer life span as compared to non-church going people. The LDS are not the only ones who can make that claim.

MU Eagle

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MU:

That was really the point of my post. People who are active and don't smoke live much longer lives. Since the UCLA study only focused on physically active Mormons we can conclude that anyone who does not smoke and is active will lead a much healthier life.

As I said - if someone wants to show that the WOW helps "Mormons" live a longer life they need to do a study with a much larger sample size that covers all Mormons, those physically active and not.

Honestly - we can all conclude that a if I drink moderate quantities of alcohol, work out, jog, eat right and don't smoke I will statistically (as far as we now know) live as long as a Mormon who does all the same yet also drinks no alcohol or tea.

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Say whatever You will TF, I never said any group will go to hell, I said If you are going their you might as well try and stick around longer. But I do believe one thing that makes hell so bad, is you will be tormented by the fact that you heard the truth and rejected it, and that will torment you for all of eterinty. Rick b.

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Guest Just Curious
the fact that you heard the truth and rejected it, and that will torment you for all of eterinty.

What if by the slight and cunning of man the truth only confused you, even though you sincerely were looking for the truth?

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Say whatever You will TF, I never said any group will go to hell, I said If you are going their you might as well try and stick around longer. But I do believe one thing that makes hell so bad, is you will be tormented by the fact that you heard the truth and rejected it, and that will torment you for all of eterinty. Rick b.

The Truth? :P<_< Mainstream "christians" such as yourself and MU know very little about truth. Going to be a very hot day when you wake up in spirit prison because YOU rejected the truth and even spent hours reading about it. Going to to be a sad day.

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I think we're trying to dig too deep here. If you accept Joseph Smith was a prophet then you will obey the Word of Wisdom. It doesn't matter if science now says a little wine is good for you. Maybe it is. But you are in violation of the word of God if you choose to drink it.

The church member who eats steak 3 times a day may be unwise and may kill himself faster than a heavy smoker, but he is not in direct violation of any requirement for church membership. Parts of the W of W are just good advice while other parts are required for good standing in the church. If someone chooses to break the required part, he is subject to possible restriction or discipline in the church. If he chooses to go against the part that was meant for good advice, he is just stupid.

In my opinion, there is a valid reason for this. First, obedience to God is one of the key tests of this life. God wants to know if we are going to obey him regardless of what our own will is. Will we be humble enough to follow his councel or will we rationalize and seek after our own understanding? ( Example) Experts say it is healthy to drink a little wine so I will start doing that and to heck with the W of W.

Second, it is not meet that we are commanded in all things. From a health perspective, some parts of the word of wisdom that are not required may be more critical than some that are, For instance-- eating a diet heavy in fat is more unhealthy than eating a mostly vegetarian diet but drinking a little coffee. So we are not specifically required to eat healthy, we most suredly will reap the benefits if we do and suffer the consequences if we don't.

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If a doctor suggests having a glass of wine with dinner to help your heart condition, you might consider it, rather than throwing it out completely because it is against the WoW.

Actually, it's the antioxidants in the grapes that confer the benefits of wine, and these can be obtained at least as readily from conventional grape juice (or even more from..... hot chocolate!!). No need for the alcoholic component. I'm waiting for my doctor to prescribe chocolate :P

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I think we're trying to dig too deep here. If you accept Joseph Smith was a prophet then you will obey the Word of Wisdom. It doesn't matter if science now says a little wine is good for you. Maybe it is. But you are in violation of the word of God if you choose to drink it.

The church member who eats steak 3 times a day may be unwise and may kill himself faster than a heavy smoker, but he is not in direct violation of any requirement for church membership. Parts of the W of W are just good advice while other parts are required for good standing in the church. If someone chooses to break the required part, he is subject to possible restriction or discipline in the church. If he chooses to go against the part that was meant for good advice, he is just stupid.

In my opinion, there is a valid reason for this. First, obedience to God is one of the key tests of this life. God wants to know if we are going to obey him regardless of what our own will is. Will we be humble enough to follow his councel or will we rationalize and seek after our own understanding? ( Example) Experts say it is healthy to drink a little wine so I will start doing that and to heck with the W of W.

Second, it is not meet that we are commanded in all things. From a health perspective, some parts of the word of wisdom that are not required may be more critical than some that are, For instance-- eating a diet heavy in fat is more unhealthy than eating a mostly vegetarian diet but drinking a little coffee. So we are not specifically required to eat healthy, we most suredly will reap the benefits if we do and suffer the consequences if we don't.

Wonderful post thank you for your input :P

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If you read this whole thread, which I admit would have been a chore, you would see that there are studies that cast doubt on your claim. Moderate consumption of alcohol in general, be it wine, beer or liquer, seems to offer the same health benefits found from wine. The grape fruit studies that I've seen offer mainly conjecture and have not been as aggresively pursued as those for wine.

Granted...your point being that you can get the same results without drinking wine is probably valid. As is the reverse - moderate wine consumption won't hurt you and, instead, actually helps your body.

Bottom line - if you're Mormon and you think God will bless you for following this relatively open-ended and widely interpretted law - great. Do it. But for all those that cling instead and/or only to common sense....there are many other things in life that can be enjoyed without hurting your health. Wine is one. A 25 year Scotch is another. And warm saki with sushi....drooling.....is another.

Then there are the joys of beer. Beer is good. When I left the church I assumed that I'd never start drinking alcohol. My dad had given us neerbeer as kids and I thought it was aweful. So I just thought I'd be one of those not Mormons who don't drink. I was wrong. Beer can be very good. Hoeggarden with lemmon. Yummy.

But then....if you're Mormon you get blessings and such. So good for you too.

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But for all those that cling instead and/or only to common sense...

Common sence, thats cute. I bet you are an Old Testament pig-eatter then? I guess I should masterbate cause its common sence that it prevents prostate cancer.

I do not heed to the "common sence" of the world over the wisdom of the Lord. With promises that the angel of death will pass us by, hence noticing Latter-Day Saints live 10 years longer than the average person. My common sence is to obey the Lord and receive the blessings he gives the Saints in abondance, as those who have experiance of obeying, then receiving the blessings, then a testamony of these things. How fathers are not alcoholics beating their children, my mother isn't dieing of lung cancer.

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Beer is Bad. Just ask the 200,000 or so people who die of alcohol related accidents. Oh wait they're dead.

Smoking is Bad. Cancer kills last time i checked. Smoking causes cancer. Smoking is Bad.

Drugs are Bad...mmmkay. Don't believe me? Ask lead singer Kurt Cobain, lead singer of Sublime, Jimmy Hendricks, Janet Joplin, the Ramones. Oh wait, :P they're dead, we can't.

Coffee is bad. Ulchers, burnt taste buds, addictions, yellow teeth, bad breath, reduced stomach lining. Sounds like a winning product. SIGN ME UP!

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Food is bad. Just ask the 1/2 a million who die from heart disease each year.

Food is bad. Just ask the over 30 million type II diabetics.

Food?

Sure. Obesity is the quickest way to death by heart disease. Heart disease is the number 1 killer in America each year. Not beer. Not alcohol related deaths. Heart disease.

Which one are you going to tackle? Food? Or Beer? Which one is more likely to be abused? Obviously food.

You can abuse anything. I abuse my hands by typing and designing all day and then going home and typing and designing and playing guitar all night. Arthritis at age 38 is the destiny I'm rushing towards.

I drink a few beers a week. I do not smoke (we all agree on that one) though I get a bit of second hand in clubs. I don't drink coffee. Have a coke each day at lunch. I'm 6'2" and weigh 170 lbs. I coach soccer and play off and on on both a basketball team and a volleyball team. My doctor says I'm in great shape. I can do this my whole life, eating sensibly and drinking moderate alcohol and statistically I'm much more likely to live to a ripe old age than a Mormon who never exercises and eats poorly...yet never drinks a beer. And I've known a whole lot of those in my life.

Common sense. Following it will keep both of us healthy. Only I will also enjoy a few more things in life than you will. And there's nothing you enjoy that I do not - unless you fall back on "well...blessings". Fine. I think God blesses me for taking care of my body too. We're even.

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Eat Drink and be merry for tommorow we die! Great philosophy. Enjoy this life all you want. Hit a few strip clubs, do a few lines. Cause what the hell, im enjoying life. Fine by me. You wont enjoy the next.

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If you read this whole thread, which I admit would have been a chore, you would see that there are studies that cast doubt on your claim. Moderate consumption of alcohol in general, be it wine, beer or liquer, seems to offer the same health benefits found from wine. The grape fruit studies that I've seen offer mainly conjecture and have not been as aggresively pursued as those for wine.

Granted...your point being that you can get the same results without drinking wine is probably valid. As is the reverse - moderate wine consumption won't hurt you and, instead, actually helps your body.

I will assume that you were replying to me, although I would have to disagree about the grape "conjecture". I'm rather familiar with many of the studies, and the grape"conjecture" has been clearly proven, as has the work with hot chocolate (about 5 times the antioxidants as equivalent amounts of most wines). The benefits of alcohol alone are at best questionable, although if you drink enough you may get a discount from the mortician for reduced preservative use. Further, moderate wine consumption also has risks (see http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=SC00024 for a simple overview provided by the Mayo Clinic). The "wine won't hurt you" mantra is, unfortunately, not entirely true, and by no means a given.

I've not read the entire thread, so I apologize for interloping.

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