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Drevan

Drinking caffiene is not against Word of Wisdom

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Nope, because you can get the same health benefits of the 'one glass of wine' from drinking the same amount of 100% grape juice.

Well, yes and no. Yes, if red wine truly is the path to health then grape juice has the same flavenoids (sp?) that wine does. On the other hand, many studies have shown that it may just be alcohol in general since it seems that a beer and/or white wine offers the same increase in health, statistically. They don't really know. Food Science is all about warm fuzzies and giving people options. Whether or not it helps, science has certainly shown that alcohol in moderation does not hurt (again, talking moderation). Other hand - oysters on the half shell can be shown to be a pretty good risk, yet I don't know a single Mormon who would place them on the "do not" list.

You can say "Well, just use common sense". OK. Common sense tells me there's nothing wrong with a beer with dinner (maybe even it's good for me), yet eating this pile of lard fried meat is going to leave some rather nasty deposits in my arteries. If I followed common sense I would be healthier. Yet it doesn't mean I would be incompliance with the WOW. Common sense and WOW are not mutually exclusive...but they are not always mutually supportive either.

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WOW Drevan. Look what you started!

Divide and conquer, right?

<_<:P

what do you mean? Divide and conquer?

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I would like to ask a few things here, If your not allowed to drink wine, why did Jesus. please dont say it was non-alcoholic because he was accused of being a drunk, as were some of the people in the book of acts. also in the BOM there is a case in Alma chapter 55 where the lamanites use their wine to get the enemies drunk in order to win. so they use wine which was alcoholic, but did it all of a sudden change. I thought in the book of acts it said (or God) said, All things are clean, even animles because he said arise peter kill and eat.

Then over in colossians 2:16 it says let no one judge you in food or in drink. yet your judged to see how worthy you are if you eat or drink. then over in 1st Timothy 4 :3 it says and commanding to abstain from foods which god created to be recived with thanksgiving.

the lds church does just this. Rick b.

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Back in the days before refrigerators and health inspectors, people often got sick and died from what they ate. God didn't want his people dying on him, so he gave them a strict set of dietary rules to keep them strong and healthy:

Pigs and certain other livestock carried diseases that made people sick. So no pork chops, bacon, rabbit stew or barbecued camel (Leviticus 11:3-7).

It's hard to believe that God had to tell the people not to eat roaches, horse flies and daddy long leg spiders, full of venom and bacteria. But it's equally hard to believe that he told the people they could eat locusts, katydids and grasshoppers, of which are very nutritious. Would you like yours with or without chocolate sprinkles? (Leviticus 11:20-23).

Don't get caught eating snakes, caterpillars and centipedes. Things mentioned had loads of toxins. God said that any creature that drags its belly along the ground, with or without legs, would make you dirty. When you were dirty on the inside, you had to go to the priest for cleansing. That was worse than being grounded (Leviticus 11:41-44).

Word of Wisdom Today

Latter-day Saints, unlike many other churches, claim divine authority with modern revelation, because the Bible's wasn't written for our time and we know about germs and stuff. But we are now exposed to even more bad habits that many are unaware of. Nearly 200 years under the direction of God, we have knowledge that beat science by a century on the harms of coffee, tobacco, alcohol and the need of a healthy diet of grains and low meat.

Where, coffee, tobacco and alchohal is unhealthy and addictive, we can't encourage addictions, we are to suport free agency. Not encourge people under the power of an addiction, to allow even a little dose of these substances.

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Back in the days before refrigerators and health inspectors, people often got sick and died from what they ate. God didn't want his people dying on him, so he gave them a strict set of dietary rules to keep them strong and healthy:

Pigs and certain other livestock carried diseases that made people sick. So no pork chops, bacon, rabbit stew or barbecued camel (Leviticus 11:3-7).

It's hard to believe that God had to tell the people not to eat roaches, horse flies and daddy long leg spiders, full of venom and bacteria. But it's equally hard to believe that he told the people they could eat locusts, katydids and grasshoppers, of which are very nutritious. Would you like yours with or without chocolate sprinkles? (Leviticus 11:20-23).

Don't get caught eating snakes, caterpillars and centipedes. Things mentioned had loads of toxins. God said that any creature that drags its belly along the ground, with or without legs, would make you dirty. When you were dirty on the inside, you had to go to the priest for cleansing. That was worse than being grounded (Leviticus 11:41-44).

Word of Wisdom Today

Latter-day Saints, unlike many other churches, claim divine authority with modern revelation, because the Bible's wasn't written for our time and we know about germs and stuff. But we are now exposed to even more bad habits that many are unaware of. Nearly 200 years under the direction of God, we have knowledge that beat science by a century on the harms of coffee, tobacco, alcohol and the need of a healthy diet of grains and low meat.

Where, coffee, tobacco and alchohal is unhealthy and addictive, we can't encourage addictions, we are to suport free agency. Not encourge people under the power of an addiction, to allow even a little dose of these substances.

Great post thank you very much for that. :P

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in the oldtestment, God told the JEWS not to eat certain things, this did not apply to the gentiles. Also in the book of acts God told peter to Arise KILL and EAT. HE said He made all things clean, even pork is now clean. And that ignores the verses I gave about judging other people food and denying the eating of meant in the last days. Rick b.

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Where, coffee, tobacco and alchohal is unhealthy and addictive, we can't encourage addictions, we are to suport free agency. Not encourge people under the power of an addiction, to allow even a little dose of these substances.

Do you think food or the above could be considered more addictive? Are more people obese or alcoholics?

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i dont know there t-force. down here in az we tend to have rattlers on abundance and always wind up killing a couple to eat on scout trips. and yes they 'taste like chicken'. :P

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HI TF,

Is that a offical answer from the church as to why it's OK to break the WOW? If it's OK to eat meat every day why doesn't the prophet say so? As to the dietery law the Jews could eat meat, they just couldn't eat certain types, it had nothing to do with refrigerators or health inspectors, in fact they did have inspectors, they were called levitical priests. Lamb, Goat, Deer and other animals were eaten daily. This is a perfect example of "no matter what is taught, the survival of the church will trump any scripture."

Mark

John 1:12

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Is that a offical answer from the church as to why it's OK to break the WOW?

I dont think he claimed to be a General Authority or a church official spokesman. Are you an official for the Christian religion?

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Hi Drevan,

I didn't imply TF was, I asked ..."Is that a offical answer from the church as to why it's OK to break the WOW?" In other words, "does the church teach its OK to eat meat now because of health inspectors and refrigerators?" Your implying something I never said.

Mark

John 1:12

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Personally, I think the point of the Word of Wisdom is to get people to think about what they put into their bodies or what they do to their bodies. Given all the discussion there is on this board about it, I think it does that quite well. I view the prohibition on coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, and drug abuse as a minimum standard set by the Church for baptism and temple attendance.

I don't have a problem with folks encouraging others to take it further, but I do have a problem with the folks who try to lay a guilt trip on the anyone who chooses not to take it further (you're only in compliance with the letter of the law, not the intent, so you're really not in compliance, etc.). It is very clear what the minimum standard of compliance with the Word of Wisdom is. Demanding that people do more is straining at gnats. Perhaps the ones who demand more of others should think about casting a few beams out of their eyes before they worry about the motes in their brothers' and sisters' eyes...particularly when the Church teaches that what their brothers and sisters are doing is sufficient; perhaps their brothers and sisters would rather focus on developing faith, charity, humility, etc., which I think are more to the point than what else they consume or don't consume at that point.

From Matthew 19:

16

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Historian Lester Bush helped illluminate the origins of the Word of Wisdom, as well as explaining some similar health beliefs that were popluar in the 1830's. His article was in the Fall 1981 Dialogue; as usual, I have a copy for anyone who would like one.

I'll just cut and paste some of the most interesting excerpts:

Early nineteenth-century medical orthodoxy held that most of what we now know to be different diseases were manifestations of one basic underlying condition--merely different "symptoms," as it were, of a single disease state. This underlying condition, to oversimplify, was an imbalance in the vital nervous energy believed to determine the health of an individual. An excess of this energy could be brought about by over-stimulation from a variety of sources, and this led to something vaguely analogous to what we now call hypertension. Among the common manifestations of this internal tension were "fevers," "inflammations" (especially of the stomach) or simple "dyspepsia." Depletion of the vital nervous energy led, not surprisingly, to debility. The practical implications of this perspective are not hard to guess. Acutely ill individuals--especially if fever or signs of inflammation were present--needed a reduction in stimulation through dietary adjustment and such relaxing or energy dissipating measures as massive blood-letting, purging with large doses of mercury, and blistering--all to relieve excessive internal pressures. Conversely, those in a debilitated state needed dietary medicinal stimulation.

Challenging this traditional view was a subtly different notion originally advanced by the dean of American physicians, Benjamin Rush. Late in the eighteenth century Rush concluded that over-stimulation was in fact the only significant cause of disease. Debility was merely the final stages of an unanswered, co-existing over-stimulation. Many, but not all of America's leading physicians eventually subscribed to this notion, and accordingly treated patients with the theoretically "de-stimulating" depleting measures which became the hallmark of the so-called "heroic" orthodox practice. (The physicians termed their measures heroic; critics thought the term applied more appropriately to the patient.)

The implication of both these orthodox perspectives went beyond treatment, for it was reasonably enough assumed that the ill-advised consumption of stimulants by even those in good health could lead to disease. A full appreciation of this point is essential to any modern understanding of how the LDS health code would initially have been understood--by physicians or Mormons. Immoderate use of even mildly stimulating foods and drink was likely to result in symptoms ranging from dyspepsia to nervous debility, and this was especially so in the many individuals of "delicate," "nervous

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Oh, and the last two paragraphs are good as well...

Because of the decimating effects on the early Saints of such water-borne diseases as cholera, dysentery, infant diarrhea and typhoid fever alone, one wonders why there was no guidance about the more important subjects (from the mortality standpoint) of clean water and waste disposal. It almost seems that those pioneers who drank coffee and tea would have fared better than their obedient brethren; at least they heated their water (several minutes of boiling would have eliminated the risk of infectious diseases). Some alcoholic beverages, for that matter, would surely have been safer than the alternatives available to the pioneers in Winter Quarters.59 We obviously can't know all the answers, but this seems strong circumstantial evidence at least for the notion that the Word of Wisdom represents a response to more specific circumstances than we often assume today.

Two concluding points should be made. The first, which almost goes without saying, is that the last medical word is still not in on the relative value of many Word of Wisdom guidelines, making firm conclusions risky if not foolish.60 The second point is that whatever merit or function the Word of Wisdom had for the nineteenth century Mormons, in retrospect we know that circumstances changed around the turn of the century in such a way that its guidelines could unquestionably promote better physical health (i.e., there was more cigarette smoking, and less serious infectious disease). That this development--the implications of which were not apparent to the medical scientists for decades--coincided with a decision by the church leadership to require firm adherence to the Word of Wisdom is quite remarkable. It may well represent their most demonstrably prescient insight to date in helping assure that the "destroying angel" of disease will "pass us by."

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What it really comes down to over the fact is coffee addictive or not is this, BONDAGE!. if we obey the WoW then the church is putting us in bondage that God never intendid. We are told all food is clean and if we choose to drink coffee or tea or wine we can. We can drink it and use moderation and not be addicted. yet if we dont obey we cannot get into the temple and theirfore be denyed the chance of exaltaion therefore no salvation, comes down to the church putting a yoke upon the people that God did not put on the people. the bible teaches, Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light, not within all the laws of mormonism. Rick b.

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What it really comes down to over the fact is coffee addictive or not is this, BONDAGE!. if we obey the WoW then the church is putting us in bondage that God never intendid. We are told all food is clean and if we choose to drink coffee or tea or wine we can. We can drink it and use moderation and not be addicted. yet if we dont obey we cannot get into the temple and theirfore be denyed the chance of exaltaion therefore no salvation, comes down to the church putting a yoke upon the people that God did not put on the people. the bible teaches, Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light, not within all the laws of mormonism. Rick b.

<_<:P

Come on give me a break. Coffee, Alcohol (of any kind, wine included), tobacco, teas, and drugs all kill the body, they all damage the body. They prematurely age us, they weaken us. AND ALL OF THEM ARE ADDICTIVE. I dont care who you are, they are addictive. You say use in moderation, whose to say what is moderation? All these substances, the body gradually becomes gets use to them. you have to consume more and more eventually. I have a friend that can drink a 12 pack and still not be legally drunk. He has to drink beer and cherrios just to wake up. He's only be drinking alcohol for 6 years. To get drunk it's a 24 pack. Me, when i was inactive, after 2 i was layed out on the ground. Why? because he had a tolerance, moderation for him is a six pack. To others it's a single. God just simplified things by saying NO to all of the above. I baptised a lady in brasil that had to drink a pot of coffee by her self just to wake up in the morning. It took her WEEKS to get off of her addiction to coffee. She had to go see doctors to help her. It gave her ulsers, it ruined her taste buds, it stained her teeth and made them so weak she had to have expensive dental work on them. Coffee also burns the throat. Im not going to even get into tobacco or drugs, if you dont think we need a spirtual law from heavenly father about not using tobacco you've been living in a hole for the last 50 years or more. You say Bondage, PLEASE, i say freedom, I say GLORIA thank you Father for your revalation and counsel.

Tell me this, if this is bondage, if this law is a lie and should be ignored, tell me this, why do members of the LDS faith live 10 years ON AVERAGE longer than the rest of population? Why is the average life span of an LDS member like 85 to 90??? Because we follow God's counsel, we listen to Him and we have been for the last 180 years.

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Guest The Headless Laban
What it really comes down to over the fact is coffee addictive or not is this, BONDAGE!. if we obey the WoW then the church is putting us in bondage that God never intendid. We are told all food is clean and if we choose to drink coffee or tea or wine we can. We can drink it and use moderation and not be addicted. yet if we dont obey we cannot get into the temple and theirfore be denyed the chance of exaltaion therefore no salvation, comes down to the church putting a yoke upon the people that God did not put on the people. the bible teaches, Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden is light, not within all the laws of mormonism. Rick b.

<_<:P

Come on give me a break. Coffee, Alcohol (of any kind, wine included), tobacco, teas, and drugs all kill the body, they all damage the body. They prematurely age us, they weaken us. AND ALL OF THEM ARE ADDICTIVE. I dont care who you are, they are addictive. You say use in moderation, whose to say what is moderation? All these substances, the body gradually becomes gets use to them. you have to consume more and more eventually. I have a friend that can drink a 12 pack and still not be legally drunk. He has to drink beer and cherrios just to wake up. He's only be drinking alcohol for 6 years. To get drunk it's a 24 pack. Me, when i was inactive, after 2 i was layed out on the ground. Why? because he had a tolerance, moderation for him is a six pack. To others it's a single. God just simplified things by saying NO to all of the above. I baptised a lady in brasil that had to drink a pot of coffee by her self just to wake up in the morning. It took her WEEKS to get off of her addiction to coffee. She had to go see doctors to help her. It gave her ulsers, it ruined her taste buds, it stained her teeth and made them so weak she had to have expensive dental work on them. Coffee also burns the throat. Im not going to even get into tobacco or drugs, if you dont think we need a spirtual law from heavenly father about not using tobacco you've been living in a hole for the last 50 years or more. You say Bondage, PLEASE, i say freedom, I say GLORIA thank you Father for your revalation and counsel.

Tell me this, if this is bondage, if this law is a lie and should be ignored, tell me this, why do members of the LDS faith live 10 years ON AVERAGE longer than the rest of population? Why is the average life span of an LDS member like 85 to 90??? Because we follow God's counsel, we listen to Him and we have been for the last 180 years.

There may have been some good counsel in the WoW, and if it works for you great. But when it comes to taking care of your body, who are you going to trust more: Joseph Smith, or a doctor? Your bishop, or your personal trainer? I wouldn't take the WoW as anything more than nutrition advice from a 19th century religious leader. Don't put it above nutrition experts. If a doctor suggests having a glass of wine with dinner to help your heart condition, you might consider it, rather than throwing it out completely because it is against the WoW.

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There may have been some good counsel in the WoW, and if it works for you great. But when it comes to taking care of your body, who are you going to trust more: Joseph Smith, or a doctor? Your bishop, or your personal trainer? I wouldn't take the WoW as anything more than nutrition advice from a 19th century religious leader. Don't put it above nutrition experts. If a doctor suggests having a glass of wine with dinner to help your heart condition, you might consider it, rather than throwing it out completely because it is against the WoW.

No actually, im not going to follow a doctor's or a physical trainer's opinon at all. Im going to follow GOD'S COUNCIL.Which is something i've noticed you could careless about.

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The bible says not to judge another when it comes to food or drink, and Jesus and the people drank wine. Also it is bondage because If I dont follow the WoW I cannot enter the temple and attain Godhood. In that sence it is bondage, not about healthy verses unhealthy eating.

Also God said peter arise kill and eat, God said all was clean and good. But I agree we should not use tabacco or drugs, even the bible condemes drug use. As to claiming the LDS live longer by 10 years because of following the WoW show me real studies that prove people living to 90 or longer on avrage are lds while the rest are of another faith. Rick b.

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Guest Just Curious

I think the bible has a few passages by Jesus that would address what He thinks about things such as the word of wisdom...frankly I also consider Jesus own words as the last word on any subject...whoever doesn't ----well good luck in the next life :P

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As to claiming the LDS live longer by 10 years because of following the WoW show me real studies that prove people living to 90 or longer on avrage are lds while the rest are of another faith. Rick b.

I could probably dig up the studies and post the sites or the info, but what good would it do? You wouldn't believe it anyway. With the exception of maybe God himself appearing to an antimormon, there is little use in trying to show or prove anything. They always find excuses or say something like that example doesnt apply in this circumstance.

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Find us the studies and we'll believe. I want to see where Mormons live, on an average, to 93.

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I really dont believe you could dig up solid evidence. But I do agree that lds twist the facts as you claim we do, and I would agree to some degree if you eat healither you "COULD" live longer. that is not really the case with everyone. because our lives and time of death are in Gods hands and when he decides we go we go. No matter whhat food we eat. But please do dig up proof, other wise I will assume another LDS is incorrect again. Not that lds care I believe they are incorrect. Rick b.

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I had an interesting arguement with a co-worker about the Mormon (utah) myth that it's against the Word of Wisdom to drink anything with caffiene (with the exception of Coffee). I mean items such as Coke, Dr. Pepper, Mountain Dew, or sports drinks such as Red Bull. This doctrine though it is discouraged by certain leaders in the church, is not cannonized doctrine and certainly not included in the Word of Wisdom. Post your thoughts plz. Have a good evening (as i slam a 2 liter of Coke).

Drevan

In LDS history strong drinks was also meant to include hot chocolate :P

To me that's a crime <_<

MU Eagle

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If people live longer its probably due to health reasons, such as not eating too much sugar, and having a balanced diet. Nothing related to the WoW.

MU Eagle

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