Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Drevan

Drinking caffiene is not against Word of Wisdom

Recommended Posts

Ok, I should have read my original post before i posted it. I was in hurry is my only excuse. According to the official church approved discussions for the missionaries to teach investigators you can not be baptised in the church if you smoke, drink alcohol, drink tea (with the exception of herbal non-black tea) or use illegal drugs (aka marjuana, cocaine, etc). Nothing else is asked or can be asked. To the members who have said we are to avoid addictive substance. Now, who can define addictive substances? ANYTHING can be addictive ANYTHING! Chocolate, sweets, meat, vegetables (vegetarians), ANYTHING can be addictive. I know people who stay wired on a can of coke for an hour. Me on the other had, can drink a coke before i go to bed and not have any problems, coke, doesnt effect me. My mother in law is allergic to eggs, so in her circumstance, the word of wisdom for her personally means...AVOID EGGS. My point is something that personally applies to you, does not apply to ALL unless it is specifically indicated and approved by the general authorities.

Now, i dont know anything about these wards that let people smoke and drink or whatever. My friend has not been able to be baptised into the church cause he can kick his smoking/weed habit even though he believes all the doctrine. And this is not just a problem with a region, like a specific bishop or stake president. He's lived in 3 different states, had the discussion in every state, been to a dozen wards, and the message is the same. Kick your habits (smoking/drugs) and you can be baptised.

Now, as far as the Temple recommend and temple worthiness. I just had my interview and the only thing that was asked is if i obeyed and followed the guidelines in the WoW (dont remember the specific wording of the question). I asked for clarification, and the counselor responded: Coffee, Tea, Smoking, Drugs. Nothing more nor less.

So, drinking Coke initself is not a sin or against the word of wisdom. IT MAY WELL BE AGAINST YOUR PERSONAL WORD OF WISDOM BUT DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE PREACH IT AS A DOCTRINE FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.

Share this post


Link to post

I don't want to derail this WoW thread, but...

How do we justify the strict enforcement of the four proscriptions of the WoW, but when it comes to obesity... nary a word, at least nary any enforcable actions to TR worthiness.

The medical and health problems of smoking are bad enough, but I hear that health officials are predicting that obesity has or will eclipse smoking's detrimental effects on public health.

Many in the church view the WoW as related to health... you know "The Lord's Health Code". I never have.

Earl

Share this post


Link to post

Many in the church view the WoW as related to health... you know "The Lord's Health Code". I never have.

Obesity is a result of 2 things, genetics and addictions to food. As i just posted, if you have a personal problem with food, it is just that personal. Me, i have been very blessed with incredible genetics, im not boasting, i have gained maybe 10 pounds in the last 10 years, im like 175 pounds and i eat whatever i want. Now, i do try eat a health meal, like buying the most fat free meat etc, and watching my sweet consumption. However, if you have weight issues, then the WoW personally for you means, diet, or control yourself.

Share this post


Link to post

I think the question is more - if a temple president smells alcohol on your breathe it's likely he might take you aside and ask if you are living the WOW before he admits you in. On the other hand, if an obese man or woman walks up they receive a smile and wave and no one thinks anything of it.

Heart disease being the number one killer - and obesity being a major contributor to such - you would think that a health law would be as concerned about "health" as it is anything else. But such is not the case. You can be an obese Bishop and enjoy large unhealthy dinner every night and be considered a great faithful member (I've certainly known a few). If that same Bishop drank a glass of wine each night he would not - even though many studies say that such is good for you. If I were god, which admittedly I'm not, I would try and present rules that made sense. But that's just me.

Share this post


Link to post

I don't disagree with your post, but as to...

However, if you have weight issues, then the WoW personally for you means, diet, or control yourself.

...or what?

In response to one of the last questions in the TR interview... Should those who are obese (and I am no twig), mention their weight problem and deny themselves entry to the temple? That is, worthy in every way, but as to significantly excessive weight disqualify themselves? What would a bishop or SP say?

Earl

Share this post


Link to post

The prohibition is against coffee and tea not caffine. Now, I can decide that Caffine is not good for me personally and choose to stop drinking it in my personal attempt to keep the spirit of the law. I have no right however to tell you that you would be breaking the spirit of the law if you drank caffine. I have no right to set myself up as your judge in this matter, even were I your Bishop.

Share this post


Link to post
The prohibition is against coffee and tea not caffine. Now, I can decide that Caffine is not good for me personally and choose to stop drinking it in my personal attempt to keep the spirit of the law. I have no right however to tell you that you would be breaking the spirit of the law if you drank caffine. I have no right to set myself up as your judge in this matter, even were I your Bishop.

Glory Halleluha some is listening with a brain. Thank you. Now we just need to get your quote published in every media possible so we can reach each member who think they have the right to call me a bad person for drinking a coke.

Share this post


Link to post

Two things I dont understand here, it does not say in the WoW caffine, or Coffee. So how do you get caffine or coffee out of "hot drinks". Also if you drink cold coffee unless it is decaf it has caffine. Rick b

Share this post


Link to post
Guest TJane
Two things I dont understand here, it does not say in the WoW caffine, or Coffee. So how do you get caffine or coffee out of "hot drinks". Also if you drink cold coffee unless it is decaf it has caffine.

We get coffee and tea out of "hot drinks" because that is what our leaders have said it means - because at the time of the revelation, hot drinks pretty much were tea and coffee. I've met some LDS who don't drink anything hot, be it soup or herbal tea or whatever. I personally like lots of things hot, but I do tend to burn my mouth and throat sometimes, which is not healthy - not to mention hurts like the ****ens.

As far as obesity being against the Word of Wisdom, I will try hard to not start a major diversion here with those who think that control and dieting are the way to lose weight, except to say that from what I've learned in my nutrition class, as well as my own personal experience, dieting and control are the quickest way to put yourself into starvation mode and thus creating a chemical reaction in your body that makes your body into a fat-storing machine. Feeding your body what it needs, as much as it needs, is the way to lose weight permanently.

So do not go judging a fat book by its cover. It is partly genetics and partly the uninformed masses who cut out so much food, and thus nutrients, that their body stores fat to survive.

Now, back to Word of Wisdom interviews - most temple interviews I've had have just asked me if I obey the Word of Wisdom, and leave it at that. I've had some just ask if I abstain from the "big no-no's" meaning alcohol, tea, coffee and tobacco. But I have also had some ask about the "yes-yes's" meaning eating herbs and vegetables and fruits, meat 'sparingly' and what not. I suppose that each person giving the interview can be as detailed as they want, past the standard list of questions.

(Aside: "in season" to me means eat food that hasn't spoiled. Thus canned or frozen food is just fine - frozen being more full of nutrients, according to my nutrition teacher, but that's not the discussion here. Again, remember the time the revelation was given - there wasn't a lot of ways to store fruits and veggies back then.)

As far as those who pooh-pooh the way the revelation was asked for and received - I would imagine if Joseph were to make up a revelation to help Emma with her cleaning the rooms, I don't think it would be as totally encompassing and full of promise as the Word of Wisdom is. The Lord seems to give people what they are ready for when it comes to revelations, and Joseph asked the right question and got the amazing revelation that the Word of Wisdom is. It is so much farther reaching than just avoiding a few things to get into a temple. It's a revelation on how to have an incredibly healthy body, not just to avoid things that make a mess.

Jane

Share this post


Link to post
Guest The Headless Laban

The WoW is the biggest mess in all of church doctrine, because it is so strongly enforced, perhaps more strongly than any other policy, yet it has such flimsy doctrinal backing. There is no mention of coffee ot tea, only hot drinks. What are hot drinks? Mormons drink hot chocolate, but not coffee or tea. Is it the caffeine? No, because mormons drink pop and eat chocolate. So what is the deal with coffee and tea. Surely coffee and tea are much healthier than Kool-Aid, which is just sugar water.

Also, the word of wisdom seems to allow for beer:

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground

Share this post


Link to post

Eating meat sparingly is relative. Here in the south it means not having BBQ pork more than twice in one day.

This strikes me as one of those word of law discussions. Once you get to the spirit of the law it is up to a person to use their good judgement along with the Holy Spirit and some common sense to decide what a law means to them.

With the WoW a diabetic would be wise to avoid lots of sugar, while all people should avoid potentially addictive or harmful substances.

In the end it is the individual who answers if they are living the word of wisdom to get their Temple recommend. No one else makes that judgement.

Share this post


Link to post

Gimme a break, the WoW does not allow for beer. last time i checked All beer, including "non-alcoholic" beer contains alcohol. Thus making it agianst the WoW.

Share this post


Link to post
Gimme a break, the WoW does not allow for beer. last time i checked All beer, including "non-alcoholic" beer contains alcohol. Thus making it agianst the WoW.

I believe what Laban is pointing out is that the WoW is consistently a point of confusion for people (and thus "a mess") because of its very vague and obscure wording. Its not clear at all how the WoW is meant to be interpreted just by reading it, *especially* when you juxtapose it against what the modern leaders have stated.

The whole "hot drinks" thing has been interpreted to mean both "no heated drinks" as well as simply "no coffee and tea", which has further been interpreted to mean "no caffeine so decaf is ok!" or "no coffee and tea so decaf is not okay!"

All in all, its a mess and its never consistent how it is interpreted from person to person. Thus, the actual "letter of the law" isn't really given all that much consideration anymore as people have basically made up their own mind as to the "spirit of the law" on this particular situation.

In this vein, you may notice that the actual letter of the WoW never specifically prohibits alcohol. However, the line about barely being used in "mild drinks" could (very) easily be interpreted to mean that beer is ok.

Of course, no modern Mormon actually considers beer ok, which further elucidates the discontinuity between the modern interpretation of the WoW and its original writing.

Interpret that discontinuity as you will, its certainly given as an evidence against the church from time to time (though it doesn't need to be taken that way), but it is definitely present.

Share this post


Link to post
Eating meat sparingly is relative. Here in the south it means not having BBQ pork more than twice in one day.

<_< Having lived in the south now for well over a decade, I truly understand this concept :P

Share this post


Link to post
Guest The Headless Laban
Gimme a break, the WoW does not allow for beer. last time i checked All beer, including "non-alcoholic" beer contains alcohol. Thus making it agianst the WoW.

Alcohol is not against the WoW, wine and strong drink are. Mild drinks made out of barley are specifically mentioned in the WoW as being good. What drinks are made with barley?

Here's one mormon's interpretation:

http://wordofwisdom.ldsteach.com/strong/

Because of its low alcohol content and because it's made with barley, would beer be one of the mild drinks in verse 17?

Yes, it is likely. The Word of Wisdom was not given as a commandment at first, and many early members of the Church probably drank beer. Currently, however, prophets have considered beer to be against the Word of Wisdom.

Stay away from those things proscribed in the Word of Wisdom-no alcohol, no beer, no tobacco." (Gordon B. Hinckley, regional conference, Montreal, Quebec, 6 Aug. 1998)

thus the WoW is a confusing mess.

Share this post


Link to post

I can't believe we are still taking about his. There must be children here or something, these people just don't seem to understand anything.

1830 hot drinks were spacifically coffee and tea, if you are capable of thinking logically. Why anyone can't understand that is beyond me. Why not coffee. We aren't told, but modern science has said caffine isn't good in high doses and is also addictive. AGAIN, we don't know why coffee isn't to be drank.

We are told that we can drink herbal tea, just not conventional tea. We can also drink mild drinks, just not strong drink. The fermentation of wine is also not good. Clearly alcohal is being identified in this manner.

Tobacco is also not good for you. The Prophet beat science by 100 years.

The word of wisdom evolves, we are told to avoid addictive substances and drugs unless a docter perscribes it.

Of course there's was a WoW in the Bible, some items confusing, but other are genious for its time.

Share this post


Link to post

not trying to sound stupid, but if hot drinks is defined as coffee or tea then what about if you drink iced coffee or tea, they are no longer hot. I say this because the WoW does not say coffee or tea, but hot drinks. rick b.

Share this post


Link to post

Think. It was written in the 1830s, there was no iced tea then. Tea and coffee, hot drinks served cold, is still "hot drinks" which meant coffee and tea. I'm afraid I don't understand your mis-understanding.

Share this post


Link to post

HI TF,

I'll use your same logic here, in the 1830's there was a need to eat meat, especialy in the winter months, today you don't have to. Wht do LDS eat so much meat?

Mark

John 1:12

Share this post


Link to post
HI TF,

I'll use your same logic here, in the 1830's there was a need to eat meat, especialy in the winter months, today you don't have to. Wht do LDS eat so much meat?

Mark

John 1:12

Why does everyone eat so much meat? dont just accuse us, everyone eats to much meat be it catholic, LDS, or athiest. and the answer is lack of eductaion i suppose.

Share this post


Link to post

Why does everyone eat so much meat? dont just accuse us, everyone eats to much meat be it catholic, LDS, or athiest. and the answer is lack of eductaion i suppose.

The difference is that these other religions do not have a law telling them NOT to eat it. It would be like a JW saying "Don't get mad at ME for celebrating birthdays - millions of people in other religions do it too!!". Yes - that's true. But a Mormon has not been told it's wrong to do so.

Tobacco is also not good for you. The Prophet beat science by 100 years.

This is common Mormon myth. Tobacco was widely discouraged even then. Maybe not so much in the old west where the Mormons were. I can't remember which, but one of the Kings of England forbade it at one point because he was disgusted by it. And if the stories are to be believed, it was Emma who was grossed out and "hint hint"ed Joseph to ask God to get rid of it.

The word of wisdom evolves, we are told to avoid addictive substances and drugs unless a docter perscribes it.

Interesting point. Thank you for making it for us. What if your doctor suggests a glass of wine each night? He says it's healthy and will help your heart. Studies back this up. Are you allowed then? What if you suffer from Cancer and your doctor believes the one thing that might help ease your suffering is smoking marijuana. That OK?

See, this is where people rightly question whether this law is about health or about control. Some things that might be healthy are forbade. Some things that are not healthy are widely (pun intended) consumed by Mormons.

Share this post


Link to post

See, this is where people rightly question whether this law is about health or about control.  Some things that might be healthy are forbade.  Some things that are not healthy are widely (pun intended) consumed by Mormons.

Yeah it is about control SELF CONTROL. This whole myth that the LDS religion brain washes it's members and has them under control is a total lie not to mention the lamest accusation i've ever heard of. The Word of Wisdom is a guideline to live a healthy life. Wine is alcohol. Alcohol is forbidden in the WoW. and so is beer if you dont think so ask your bishop or a GA and i hope you feel really stupid asking them that question because it's totally obvious why you cant drink it. But i'll save you the embarresment ITS A HIGHLY ADDICTIVE DESTRUCTIVE SUBSTANCES. It kills more and more people each year from things like kidney failure and drunk driving. Wine is included under alcohol. One drink is too much i dont care if doctors says it's good for the heart GOD says no, so that's good enough for me. And besides there always the idiot who thinks if one is good for me 2 is even better and then you have a drunk on your hands. And the whole meat topic going on here, i thought this was a Coke/caffiene topic not a word of wisdom forum. Besides limiting you meat content means eating a Jr cheeseburger instead of the triple cheese burger. It means be conscious of what you're doing to your body. It means don't eat Serloin steak for dinner 7 days a week, it means eat beef 1 night, maybe chicken the next, maybe fish the next etc. It means take care of your meat by properly storing it cleaning it and getting rid of as much excess fat as possible. It means you dont have to be a vegitarian but watch your intake of meat.

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah it is about control SELF CONTROL.

Is that what the kids are calling it these days? :P

But i'll save you the embarresment ITS A HIGHLY ADDICTIVE DESTRUCTIVE SUBSTANCES.

I don't embarass that easily. Nor do I believe as you do. As a guy who has the occasional beer I give you my testimony that beer is no more addictive than food. Can it be addictive? Sure. But people who have addictive personalities, or turn to alcohol as a means to an oblivious end, are the types that are going to find themselves an addiction one way or another. If they are not allowed beer, say they're a Mormon, they'll turn to food. Or they'll turn to chocolate. Or newsgroups - or whatever. With obesity in America being an epidemic problem I would say that food is as "highly addictive" as alcohol. If you overeat you will be unhealthy. If you drink too much you will be unhealthy. If you eat sensibly you will be healthy. If you drink sensibly you will be healthy. Barring any other non-related issues, of course.

A law of health? I doubt you are any healthier than I am and I drink alcohol, drink tea on occasion and even have an occasional iced coffee. But I eat sensibly and excersise regularily.

Call it what it is - it's a Mormon rule and you believe you will be blessed for following it. It's not some univeral truth that should be obvious to all humans. And since it's such a subjective piece of work, one must assume that for each member, as long as THEY feel they are following it, one much assume they will be looked at by God as being sincere in their pursuit of obedience.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest TJane
What if your doctor suggests a glass of wine each night? He says it's healthy and will help your heart. Studies back this up. Are you allowed then?

Nope, because you can get the same health benefits of the 'one glass of wine' from drinking the same amount of 100% grape juice. Sans alcohol. So says my nutrition teacher who has a Masters in the topic.

Jane

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...