109 replies to this topic

[Pa Pa]

Sevenbak, on 21 October 2010 - 05:58 PM, said:

Ironically, I heard this same Elder Packer, while giving a talk at the MTC, while I was there in the mid-80's answer a question posed to him by a missionary.  I remember this, having written it in my journal.

It was the entire MTC, mission presidents, sr. couples, the MTC president and all the other young missionaries in attendance.  After his talk, he opened it up to questions.  A missionary asked him.  "What does it mean to be a 'son of perdition'?

To which Elder Packer, in his no nonsense demeanor replied.  "There is only one person in this room who need worry about that.  And I don't plan to fail."


Elder Scott, in Conference last year had a great talk on receiving spiritual guidance.  I was impressed there was some reading between the lines to what he said.  It's a great read on the subject.

http://lds.org/confe...-1117-2,00.html

I see nothing scandalous in what Elder Packer said…tiss a straw man augment Rob makes. Everyone who has ever told the world they saw Christ has been killed…nothing has changed in the world. BTW…does not matter what religion, in fact EV Christians more than any other do not believe you can see God, or Christ and live. Although many have.

[zerinus]

Rob Bowman, on 21 October 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

A recent thread that I started was closed without warning on the basis that a CFR was allegedly not answered. Presumably this was Vance's CFR for me to support my claim that LDS apostles are not required to have seen the risen Christ. I gave two references from LDS sources, in response to that CFR, that did illustrate the point that seeing the risen Christ is not a required qualification for apostles in the LDS Church. Vance, however, gave no references in response to my CFR to him.

In an effort to go the extra mile, I have done further research and will here produce additional references that I should think will definitely satisfy anyone who sincerely wants to know the answer to the question. This comes from the Teachings of the Living Prophets Student Manual, available online, in the section on "Apostles Are Special Witnesses of Christ."



Now, the above curriculum material quotes two LDS authorities, Packer and Smith, and affirms what they say. The above material makes it clear in at least three ways that LDS apostles are not required to have seen the risen Jesus. (1) It is considered generally inappropriate even for other apostles to ask someone if he has had this experience. This makes it clear that the existing apostles do not ask prospective apostles if they have seen the risen Jesus. If it is not asked, then it is not required. (2) Joseph Fielding Smith states that apostles may have the privilege of seeing the risen Jesus "if occasion requires." This is another way of saying that not all apostles see the risen Jesus; only some see him if the occasion requires. (3) The apostles are said to have "a stronger witness than seeing a personage," and that this kind of witness ("of the Holy Ghost") is one that every LDS Church member can and should receive. This statement would be unnecessary and misleading if LDS apostles were expected to have had the witness of seeing the personage of Jesus.

Another reference that further confirms what I am saying comes from President Harold B. Lee. He reported that when he was sustained as a member of the Twelve, he was told, "Now you understand that you are now to be a special witness of that great event, meaning the resurrection of the Lord." Lee went on to say that in response to this charge, he closeted himself in a room and read the Gospels and also read about Christ's appearance to the Nephites in the Book of Mormon. He said that as he read these things the people in those books became more real to him than ever before. Lee concluded that he had as sure a witness as the apostle Paul had because "a witness more perfect than sight is the witness which the Holy Ghost bears to one's soul so that he knows these things are true. I witness to you with all my soul that I know, as the Spirit has born witness to my soul, that the Savior lives" (quoted in Bruce E. Dana, The Apostleship [Springville, UT: Cedar Fort, 2006], 176-77; see pp. 177-79 for additional references). Similar statements from Lee are found in Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee, chapter 5 (see here).

It troubles me that any Mormon would issue a CFR on this point when it would seem, from this documentation, that the position of the LDS Church on the subject is clear. It troubles me even more that not a single Mormon acknowledged that what I had said was correct. Other Mormons on this forum should have been quick to point out to Vance that LDS apostles indeed need not claim to have seen the risen Christ. They should have cited these references, or other references like them. Did you really need a non-Mormon to point these things out?

I don't really care whether you have answered anybody's CFR or not. The only thing that I am interested in is answering the fallacies of your arguments. Your criticism of the LDS requirement of Apostleship is like someone criticizing some county's driving laws because it allows you to drive a truck without having a car driving licence; whereas in fact to drive a truck you need a truck driving licence which is a more stringent requirement than having a car driving licence. You demand a physical encounter with the resurrected Jesus Christ. We claim that being a "special witness of Jesus Christ" is a more stringent requirement which may or may not include a physical encounter with the resurrected Jesus Christ.

[Pa Pa]

zerinus, on 22 October 2010 - 06:56 AM, said:

I don't really care whether you have answered anybody's CFR or not. The only thing that I am interested in is answering the fallacies of your arguments. Your criticism of the LDS requirement of Apostleship is like someone criticizing some county's driving laws because it allows you to drive a truck without having a car driving licence; whereas in fact to drive a truck you need a truck driving licence which is a more stringent requirement than having a car driving licence. You demand a physical encounter with the resurrected Jesus Christ. We claim that being a "special witness of Jesus Christ" is a more stringent requirement which may or may not include a physical encounter with the resurrected Jesus Christ.

      

[ERMD]

Some things are too sacred to relate, depending on the circumstance:

From Alma 12--

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
  10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
  11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.


I was in the MTC over Christmas.  Elder McConkie spoke to us that day.  I remember the talk and also recorded much of it in my journal.  He said, "It just so happens that I have a perfect knowledge that He (Jesus Christ) is the Son of God."

[Pa Pa]

ERMD, on 22 October 2010 - 07:39 AM, said:

Some things are too sacred to relate, depending on the circumstance:

From Alma 12--

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
  10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
  11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.


I was in the MTC over Christmas.  Elder McConkie spoke to us that day.  I remember the talk and also recorded much of it in my journal.  He said, "It just so happens that I have a perfect knowledge that He (Jesus Christ) is the Son of God."

I know he is not very PC these days but I loved Elder McConkie, and I believe he did.

[Rob Bowman]

Pa Pa,

You wrote:

Pa Pa, on 22 October 2010 - 05:52 AM, said:

Everyone who has ever told the world they saw Christ has been killed…nothing has changed in the world.

CFR that everyone who has ever told the world they saw Christ has been killed.

[Pa Pa]

Rob Bowman, on 22 October 2010 - 07:50 AM, said:

Pa Pa,

You wrote:



CFR that everyone who has ever told the world they saw Christ has been killed.

OK "Rob" lets say those who were not written off as mental patients. But if you want an example lets say…wait for it…Joseph Smith. The only thing that saved the others (of LDS Prophets, and attempts were made) was going west a living only among their own people. In fact anyone in today's world who would say they saw Christ would be considered a mental patient; such is the world of religion today. In fact if one of our Apostles said this it would launch 10,000 threads. So you can see why no one speaks of it. It was not the irreligious who killed Christ, but the religious leaders of his day. Today it is the same…the "counter-cult" movement of which you and others are a part.

Honestly aren’t you dealing that CFR card a bit much?

[Rob Bowman]

Pa Pa,

I didn't ask for an example. I asked for support for your statement that everyone who has claimed to see Christ has been killed.

Also, as you should well know, Joseph Smith was not killed for his testimony that he had seen the risen Jesus.

This would be, to the best of my recollection, only the second time I have issued a CFR on this forum.

So, do you retract your statement?

I take exception and offense to your comparing me to the people who killed Christ.

Pa Pa, on 22 October 2010 - 08:11 AM, said:

OK "Rob" lets say those who were not written off as mental patients. But if you want an example lets say…wait for it…Joseph Smith. The only thing that saved the others (of LDS Prophets, and attempts were made) was going west a living only among their own people. In fact anyone in today's world who would say they saw Christ would be considered a mental patient; such is the world of religion today. In fact if one of our Apostles said this it would launch 10,000 threads. So you can see why no one speaks of it. It was not the irreligious who killed Christ, but the religious leaders of his day. Today it is the same…the "counter-cult" movement of which you and others are a part.

Honestly aren’t you dealing that CFR card a bit much?

Edited by Rob Bowman, 22 October 2010 - 08:19 AM.

[Pa Pa]

Rob Bowman, on 22 October 2010 - 08:18 AM, said:

Pa Pa,

I didn't ask for an example. I asked for support for your statement that everyone who has claimed to see Christ has been killed.

Also, as you should well know, Joseph Smith was not killed for his testimony that he had seen the risen Jesus.

This would be, to the best of my recollection, only the second time I have issued a CFR on this forum.

So, do you retract your statement?

I take exception and offense to your comparing me to the people who killed Christ.

Oh that’s right he was killed for breaking a press…I know we disagree on religious maters but that is just disingenuous. He was killed for declaring himself a Prophet of God. This was the cause of sorrow for his entire life…well at least from 14 years on. He was beaten, tarred and feathered, imprisoned…but on that day in June of 1844, it was something else…give me a break!

[Pa Pa]

Rob Bowman, on 22 October 2010 - 08:18 AM, said:

I take exception and offense to your comparing me to the people who killed Christ.

I am sorry but you would agree that according to the Bible (in which you have complete faith) it was the established religious leaders of his day who labeled him as a heretic of the true faith. How is your role any different…once again it is the religious majority labeling the religious minority a cult. This is what has driven everything from Christ's death to the inquisition to the death of our Prophet and will remain so until Christ returns in power and glory.

I am sorry if that hurts.

[David T]

Pa Pa, on 22 October 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

Oh that’s right he was killed for breaking a press…I know we disagree on religious maters but that is just disingenuous. He was killed for declaring himself a Prophet of God. This was the cause of sorrow for his entire life…well at least from 14 years on. He was beaten, tarred and feathered, imprisoned…but on that day in June of 1844, it was something else…give me a break!

Well, strictly speaking, Jesus was killed by the Romans for political reasons. It was instigated by the religious leaders based on his teachings that were damaging to their establishment, true, but Jesus' actual immediate execution was pronounced by the Romans as a peace offering so to say in order to quell a potential uprising, not because of his prophetic/Messianic claims.

Strictly speaking, Joseph wasn't killed because he claimed to have seen Jesus. He did, however, teach doctrines and principles (such as the gathering) which led the local establishment to fear for their sovereignty. A key part of the mobbings in Missouri were based on a misreading of the local paper that they thought said they were inviting freed slaves to come into the community. They certainly would have thought he was crazy for his visions and claims, but in the end, since they didn't believe him, he and his group were viewed as more of a threat to their way of life than anything.

Joseph was killed due to the inevitable results of his living out what he believed, which includes direct communication with and direction and commandments from God. The visions in and of themselves do not need to be direct immediate cause of his death for them to have been a driving force as to what eventually brought him to that point.

Edited by nackhadlow, 22 October 2010 - 08:38 AM.

[Pa Pa]

nackhadlow, on 22 October 2010 - 08:36 AM, said:

Well, strictly speaking, Jesus was killed by the Romans for political reasons. It was instigated by the religious leaders based on his teachings that were damaging to their establishment, true, but Jesus' actual immediate execution was pronounced by the Romans as a peace offering so to say in order to quell a potential uprising, not because of his prophetic/Messianic claims.

Strictly speaking, Joseph wasn't killed because he claimed to have seen Jesus. He did, however, teach doctrines and principles (such as the gathering) which led the local establishment to fear for their sovereignty. A key part of the mobbings in Missouri were based on a misreading of the local paper that they thought said they were inviting freed slaves to come into the community. They certainly would have thought he was crazy for his visions and claims, but in the end, since they didn't believe him, he and his group were viewed as more of a threat to their way of life than anything.

Joseph was killed due to the inevitable results of his living out what he believed, which includes direct communication with and direction and commandments from God. The visions in and of themselves do not need to be direct immediate cause of his death for them to have been a driving force as to what eventually brought him to that point.

Only because by Roman law the Jews were not allowed to enforce the death penalty at that time. You needed the permission of the Roman ruler in that area. But Joseph knew at Liberty Jail he would one day have to give his life for his beliefs so to me they are linked. In fact once Hyrum convinced him to got back to Carthage and turn himself in…he knew was going to die. I think it was very telling that Joseph even though the Prophet asked his older brother what he should do, just as Moses took counsel from his father-in-law. But those endearing qualities about Joseph are lost in the anti-Mormon debate.

[BCSpace]

Quote

It troubles me that any Mormon would issue a CFR on this point when it would seem, from this documentation, that the position of the LDS Church on the subject is clear. It troubles me even more that not a single Mormon acknowledged that what I had said was correct. Other Mormons on this forum should have been quick to point out to Vance that LDS apostles indeed need not claim to have seen the risen Christ. They should have cited these references, or other references like them. Did you really need a non-Mormon to point these things out?

Not all of our systematic theology is in a handy alpabetized list.  Nor is it a common question among us.  I don't recall reading the thread or posts you are refering to else I might have answered similarly.  Not that someone else wouldn't have.

[randy]

Tarski, on 21 October 2010 - 07:24 PM, said:

When David B. Haight became an apostle he spoke in a conference. I heard him say with my own ears that he had not seen.

He used these words "I have not seen but...". What followed those words was too unremarkable to recall precisely.
I do not know how the printed version turned out but I remember being shocked when I realized he had not seen Jesus.
Frankly, he seemed a little apologetic about it.

Tarski,

This would seem to be at odds with the testimony that I heard him bear himself, when I was 19yrs old. The occassion was at a "regular" sacrament meeting in our Ward in Independence, Mo. What was supposed to be a regular Sacrament meeting turned out to be anything but.  Our "speakers" that day were nine Mission Presidents (who each bore their testimony) Elder Paul H. Dunn and Elder David B. Haight...who had only recently been called as an Apostle a few weeks earlier.

Elder Haight gave a wonderful talk..but like most talks we're privileged to hear...we forget most of them. His "talk" was no different, but it was his Apostolic testimony that he bore after his talk that even at 53yrs old now..I remember it as if it was one minute ago.


He began his testimony by setting the scene of his Apostolic ordination in the Temple. He related in very limited and general terms the words of the blessing pronounced upon him by Pres. Kimball...then he related this:  "After the ordination the Brethren were coming up and extending their love, support and well wishes...and we were all slowing making our way out of the door, the other Brethren having other commitments etc. to attend to..I myself having one with my family.

When it became clear to Pres. Kimball that it appeared that I also was preparing to leave the room..Pres. Kimball came up to me and lovingly said "Bro. David I think it would be a good idea if you stayed a little while and ponder and pray..just by yourself, about what has just taken place."  I told Pres. Kimball that I had a previous family activity planned and that I really need to be leaving so as not to be late.  Pres. Kimball then took me aside..cupped my face in his hands, kissed my cheek and said "David..I love you, but I am not asking you to stay..I am telling you NEED to stay."

After this very brief setup of the scene Elder Haight then bore this testimony..."Brother's and Sister's...I want you to know that I did follow Pres. Kimballs direction and stayed in that room in the Temple, by myself to pray and ponder over my Apostolic calling, (and with great emotion and almost tearful)..I bear my Apostolic witness that I KNOW without doubt that Jesus Christ lives! That he has a resurrected and glorfied body of flesh and bones as tangible as yours and mine...that he is my Savior and Redeemer, and your Savior and Redeemer!

I don't recall much after those words because I was to overcome with what I had just heard and felt. Even as I type this experience out I get very emotional. To be honest...I haven't had all that many "mountain top" type of spiritual experiences, but this was one that I did have..and as a 19yr old, married with 3 kids already...I was in desperate need of a granite foundation moving forward in my life.  I have looked back on this experience a million times in my life since that day....and EACH time it has renewed my faith and my testimony that this Church is in fact what it claims to be, and that there are in fact Apostles and Prophets on the earth today.  I needed that assurance then, and I am grateful that I continue to receive that assurance each time I am moved upon to share that experience.

Just wanted to share that with you.

[Pa Pa]

randy, on 22 October 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

Tarski,

This would seem to be at odds with the testimony that I heard him bear himself, when I was 19yrs old. The occassion was at a "regular" sacrament meeting in our Ward in Independence, Mo. What was supposed to be a regular Sacrament meeting turned out to be anything but.  Our "speakers" that day were nine Mission Presidents (who each bore their testimony) Elder Paul H. Dunn and Elder David B. Haight...who had only recently been called as an Apostle a few weeks earlier.

Elder Haight gave a wonderful talk..but like most talks we're privileged to hear...we forget most of them. His "talk" was no different, but it was his Apostolic testimony that he bore after his talk that even at 53yrs old now..I remember it as if it was one minute ago.


He began his testimony by setting the scene of his Apostolic ordination in the Temple. He related in very limited and general terms the words of the blessing pronounced upon him by Pres. Kimball...then he related this:  "After the ordination the Brethren were coming up and extending their love, support and well wishes...and we were all slowing making our way out of the door, the other Brethren having other commitments etc. to attend to..I myself having one with my family.

When it became clear to Pres. Kimball that it appeared that I also was preparing to leave the room..Pres. Kimball came up to me and lovingly said "Bro. David I think it would be a good idea if you stayed a little while and ponder and pray..just by yourself, about what has just taken place."  I told Pres. Kimball that I had a previous family activity planned and that I really need to be leaving so as not to be late.  Pres. Kimball then took me aside..cupped my face in his hands, kissed my cheek and said "David..I love you, but I am not asking you to stay..I am telling you NEED to stay."

After this very brief setup of the scene Elder Haight then bore this testimony..."Brother's and Sister's...I want you to know that I did follow Pres. Kimballs direction and stayed in that room in the Temple, by myself to pray and ponder over my Apostolic calling, (and with great emotion and almost tearful)..I bear my Apostolic witness that I KNOW without doubt that Jesus Christ lives! That he has a resurrected and glorfied body of flesh and bones as tangible as yours and mine...that he is my Savior and Redeemer, and your Savior and Redeemer!

I don't recall much after those words because I was to overcome with what I had just heard and felt. Even as I type this experience out I get very emotional. To be honest...I haven't had all that many "mountain top" type of spiritual experiences, but this was one that I did have..and as a 19yr old, married with 3 kids already...I was in desperate need of a granite foundation moving forward in my life.  I have looked back on this experience a million times in my life since that day....and EACH time it has renewed my faith and my testimony that this Church is in fact what it claims to be, and that there are in fact Apostles and Prophets on the earth today.  I needed that assurance then, and I am grateful that I continue to receive that assurance each time I am moved upon to share that experience.

Just wanted to share that with you.

That was a great story...thank you.  

[Sevenbak]

randy, on 22 October 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

Tarski,

This would seem to be at odds with the testimony that I heard him bear himself, when I was 19yrs old. The occassion was at a "regular" sacrament meeting in our Ward in Independence, Mo. What was supposed to be a regular Sacrament meeting turned out to be anything but.  Our "speakers" that day were nine Mission Presidents (who each bore their testimony) Elder Paul H. Dunn and Elder David B. Haight...who had only recently been called as an Apostle a few weeks earlier.

Elder Haight gave a wonderful talk..but like most talks we're privileged to hear...we forget most of them. His "talk" was no different, but it was his Apostolic testimony that he bore after his talk that even at 53yrs old now..I remember it as if it was one minute ago.


He began his testimony by setting the scene of his Apostolic ordination in the Temple. He related in very limited and general terms the words of the blessing pronounced upon him by Pres. Kimball...then he related this:  "After the ordination the Brethren were coming up and extending their love, support and well wishes...and we were all slowing making our way out of the door, the other Brethren having other commitments etc. to attend to..I myself having one with my family.

When it became clear to Pres. Kimball that it appeared that I also was preparing to leave the room..Pres. Kimball came up to me and lovingly said "Bro. David I think it would be a good idea if you stayed a little while and ponder and pray..just by yourself, about what has just taken place."  I told Pres. Kimball that I had a previous family activity planned and that I really need to be leaving so as not to be late.  Pres. Kimball then took me aside..cupped my face in his hands, kissed my cheek and said "David..I love you, but I am not asking you to stay..I am telling you NEED to stay."

After this very brief setup of the scene Elder Haight then bore this testimony..."Brother's and Sister's...I want you to know that I did follow Pres. Kimballs direction and stayed in that room in the Temple, by myself to pray and ponder over my Apostolic calling, (and with great emotion and almost tearful)..I bear my Apostolic witness that I KNOW without doubt that Jesus Christ lives! That he has a resurrected and glorfied body of flesh and bones as tangible as yours and mine...that he is my Savior and Redeemer, and your Savior and Redeemer!

I don't recall much after those words because I was to overcome with what I had just heard and felt. Even as I type this experience out I get very emotional. To be honest...I haven't had all that many "mountain top" type of spiritual experiences, but this was one that I did have..and as a 19yr old, married with 3 kids already...I was in desperate need of a granite foundation moving forward in my life.  I have looked back on this experience a million times in my life since that day....and EACH time it has renewed my faith and my testimony that this Church is in fact what it claims to be, and that there are in fact Apostles and Prophets on the earth today.  I needed that assurance then, and I am grateful that I continue to receive that assurance each time I am moved upon to share that experience.

Just wanted to share that with you.

Thanks for that Randy! Elder Haight's sacred experience was given as promoted by the sprit, among believers, at a small level, in a sacrament meeting, as opposed to a General Conference or published in the Ensign.  These sacred things aren't shared with the world at large, as they mock and set at naught.

I feel the same way about the very specific warnings given by Elder Packer in his own ward. (the controversial talk)  It was not to go out to the world at large.  I think we can also liken apostolic warnings to this conversation.  Even at the Regional Conference the week before GC, which is not published, the warnings tended to be more spelled out than at GC, about what is to come.  It's not going to be pretty.

Edited by Sevenbak, 22 October 2010 - 12:24 PM.

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 21 October 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

It troubles me that any Mormon would issue a CFR on this point when it would seem, from this documentation, that the position of the LDS Church on the subject is clear. It troubles me even more that not a single Mormon acknowledged that what I had said was correct. Other Mormons on this forum should have been quick to point out to Vance that LDS apostles indeed need not claim to have seen the risen Christ. They should have cited these references, or other references like them. Did you really need a non-Mormon to point these things out?

As usual, Rob gets it wrong.

The CFR was for this statement.

Quote

That is, in the NT Jesus Christ handpicked his apostles and prophets, and each apostle had to be an eyewitness of the risen Jesus. That isn't the case with your LDS apostles.

To address this CFR and support this statement Rob has to prove that not a single LDS apostle has seen Christ. Which he cannot do.

And to repeat the point Lehi made, there is no record of either Barnabus, or James the Lord brother being "an eyewitness of the risen Jesus".

[Obiwan]

I haven't been following the threads much, but in all my years in the Church having lived in many wards and in apologetics, I've known almost NO LDS who has said an LDS Apostle "must" see Christ to be an Apostle.  Even in this thread there are barely any arguing such.  Those who do seem to be arguing more that as LDS Apostles most actually seem TO at some point see the Christ.

Frankly there is no hard and fast "rule" for or against this Rob Bowman.  The Apostles in the Church who see Christ is a mystery.  But, there does seem plenty of evidence which indicates that most have seen Him.  The rare comment, hints, and even sometimes directly saying so, though often to a select group or conference while traveling, not generally in LDS publications.

I would suspect that in order to ensure the Church remains HIS, rather than mans, many if not most of the Apostles DO in fact see the Christ at some point.  I'm sure of it in fact.

[Obiwan]

Vance, on 22 October 2010 - 04:36 PM, said:

As usual, Rob gets it wrong.

The CFR was for this statement.



To address this CFR and support this statement Rob has to prove that not a single LDS apostle has seen Christ. Which he cannot do.

And to repeat the point Lehi made, there is no record of either Barnabus, or James the Lord brother being "an eyewitness of the risen Jesus".

What's new....???  Another anti-mormon strawman.  Misrepresenting mormonism and LDS statements creating a big addoo about nothing from it.  

When will they learn???

[Tarski]

randy, on 22 October 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

Tarski,

This would seem to be at odds with the testimony that I heard him bear himself, when I was 19yrs old. The occassion was at a "regular" sacrament meeting in our Ward in Independence, Mo. What was supposed to be a regular Sacrament meeting turned out to be anything but.  Our "speakers" that day were nine Mission Presidents (who each bore their testimony) Elder Paul H. Dunn and Elder David B. Haight...who had only recently been called as an Apostle a few weeks earlier.

Elder Haight gave a wonderful talk..but like most talks we're privileged to hear...we forget most of them. His "talk" was no different, but it was his Apostolic testimony that he bore after his talk that even at 53yrs old now..I remember it as if it was one minute ago.


He began his testimony by setting the scene of his Apostolic ordination in the Temple. He related in very limited and general terms the words of the blessing pronounced upon him by Pres. Kimball...then he related this:  "After the ordination the Brethren were coming up and extending their love, support and well wishes...and we were all slowing making our way out of the door, the other Brethren having other commitments etc. to attend to..I myself having one with my family.

When it became clear to Pres. Kimball that it appeared that I also was preparing to leave the room..Pres. Kimball came up to me and lovingly said "Bro. David I think it would be a good idea if you stayed a little while and ponder and pray..just by yourself, about what has just taken place."  I told Pres. Kimball that I had a previous family activity planned and that I really need to be leaving so as not to be late.  Pres. Kimball then took me aside..cupped my face in his hands, kissed my cheek and said "David..I love you, but I am not asking you to stay..I am telling you NEED to stay."

After this very brief setup of the scene Elder Haight then bore this testimony..."Brother's and Sister's...I want you to know that I did follow Pres. Kimballs direction and stayed in that room in the Temple, by myself to pray and ponder over my Apostolic calling, (and with great emotion and almost tearful)..I bear my Apostolic witness that I KNOW without doubt that Jesus Christ lives! That he has a resurrected and glorfied body of flesh and bones as tangible as yours and mine...that he is my Savior and Redeemer, and your Savior and Redeemer!I don't recall much after those words because I was to overcome with what I had just heard and felt. Even as I type this experience out I get very emotional. To be honest...I haven't had all that many "mountain top" type of spiritual experiences, but this was one that I did have..and as a 19yr old, married with 3 kids already...I was in desperate need of a granite foundation moving forward in my life.  I have looked back on this experience a million times in my life since that day....and EACH time it has renewed my faith and my testimony that this Church is in fact what it claims to be, and that there are in fact Apostles and Prophets on the earth today.  I needed that assurance then, and I am grateful that I continue to receive that assurance each time I am moved upon to share that experience.

Just wanted to share that with you.

He did not say he had seen did he now.
I bet he had said hundreds of times before that he knew this or that based on the same twinkly feelings that drives hundrds of Bishops and missionaries to say similar things.

He said to me and all that were there and paying attention that he had not seen. I'll take his word on that.
If he wants to say that nevertheless he somehow knows anyway then fine. He can say it.
I don't think he does any better than I did as a young big mouthed emotional missionary.

Edited by Tarski, 22 October 2010 - 04:50 PM.