Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Rob Bowman

Is the LDS Church really led by prophets?

404 posts in this topic

In another thread, Charles Dowis argued (as he often does) that orthodox Christianity made a serious mistake by replacing

Edited by Rob Bowman
5

Share this post


Link to post

John Taylor's revelation calling Heber J. Grant and George Teasdale to the Twelve, Wilford Woodruff's revelations on sealings and on plural marriage, Lorenzo Snow's revelation on tithing, Joseph F. Smith's vision of the redemption of the dead, Spencer W. Kimball's revelation on priesthood, Gordon B. Hinckley's revelation on smaller temples -- off the top of my head, that's seven more revelations than mainstream Christendom received during the same post-Brigham period.

2

Share this post


Link to post

Please understand

0

Share this post


Link to post

In another thread, Charles Dowis argued (as he often does) that orthodox Christianity made a serious mistake by replacing

0

Share this post


Link to post

The dirty little secret is that the contemporary LDS Church has replaced prophets with bureaucrats

0

Share this post


Link to post

John Taylor's revelation calling Heber J. Grant and George Teasdale to the Twelve, Wilford Woodruff's revelations on sealings and on plural marriage, Lorenzo Snow's revelation on tithing, Joseph F. Smith's vision of the redemption of the dead, Spencer W. Kimball's revelation on priesthood, Gordon B. Hinckley's revelation on smaller temples -- off the top of my head, that's seven more revelations than mainstream Christendom received during the same post-Brigham period.

After reading that list, I'm not sure which side you're arguing for. :P

1

Share this post


Link to post
After reading that list, I'm not sure which side you're arguing for. :P

After reading your response, I have no idea what your point is.

Do you think that they're unworthy as revelations? I don't.

No more than Peter's revelation on taking the gospel to the Gentiles, or one of Paul's revelations summoning him to go to preach in a certain place.

Salvation for the dead not a worthy topic?

0

Share this post


Link to post
The dirty little secret is that the contemporary LDS Church has replaced prophets with bureaucrats
0

Share this post


Link to post

The dirty little secret is that the contemporary LDS Church has replaced prophets with bureaucrats

0

Share this post


Link to post

Dan,

Hi there. I am honored that you took time to comment.

Comparing LDS revelations since Brigham to non-LDS Christian revelations since Brigham is irrelevant; the point I made was that alleged revelation in the LDS religion slowed quickly from a flood to a trickle. But if you really want to do the comparison, you should consider all of the alleged revelations that various Pentecostals and charismatics have claimed to receive in the past century. The number probably runs into the thousands. Of course, I don't put any stock in the prophetic claims of such men as Kenneth Hagin or Benny Hinn, either. The issue is whether such claims are true, not merely whether they are being made.

Your quick list off the top of your head rather proves my point, especially when they are examined with some care. The only alleged revelation in your list that is in the league of what Joseph claimed to get on almost a daily basis is Joseph F. Smith's vision. The rest of these items are difficult to take seriously as anything but pragmatic decisions. The most recent two "revelations" you list are especially good examples. It's been nearly a century since JFS's vision, and those two decisions are the best that came to your mind off the top of your head. An American in the late 1970s, a decade after Martin Luther King's assassination, decides that people of color can hold the LDS priesthood. That's a revelation?! Now, if he had come up with that in the 1870s, you'd have something of a more plausible argument.

John Taylor's revelation calling Heber J. Grant and George Teasdale to the Twelve, Wilford Woodruff's revelations on sealings and on plural marriage, Lorenzo Snow's revelation on tithing, Joseph F. Smith's vision of the redemption of the dead, Spencer W. Kimball's revelation on priesthood, Gordon B. Hinckley's revelation on smaller temples -- off the top of my head, that's seven more revelations than mainstream Christendom received during the same post-Brigham period.

0

Share this post


Link to post

John Taylor's revelation calling Heber J. Grant and George Teasdale to the Twelve, Wilford Woodruff's revelations on sealings and on plural marriage, Lorenzo Snow's revelation on tithing, Joseph F. Smith's vision of the redemption of the dead, Spencer W. Kimball's revelation on priesthood, Gordon B. Hinckley's revelation on smaller temples -- off the top of my head, that's seven more revelations than mainstream Christendom received during the same post-Brigham period.

Is the Proclamation on the Family a revelation?

Edited by Bunk
0

Share this post


Link to post

Ahab, I'm not putting down seniors. I'll be one myself in a few years. My point is a much more serious one.

The Holy Spirit works with seniors, too, and also with people who have a lot of experience working with the Holy Spirit, and The Church of Jesus Christ, as an organized body of believers, just keeps getting better and better.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Is the Proclamation on the Family a revelation?

Perhaps what needs to be defined, then, in this thread is what is a revelation? What do you mean by revelation?

0

Share this post


Link to post

The dirty little secret is that the contemporary LDS Church has replaced prophets with bureaucrats

0

Share this post


Link to post

Perhaps what needs to be defined, then, in this thread is what is a revelation? What do you mean by revelation?

It would be out of place for me to say, since I am not LDS.

However, the Proclamation has frequently been referred to as an example of modern revelation. Boyd K. Packer called it a revelation in his recent conference address, but in the published address this was edited so as to refer to the proclamation as a "guide". Add to this the fact that Daniel Peterson did not include the proclamation in his list... I thought I would ask where it ranks.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Lurker,

You wrote:

I am curious, what was the average age of the prophets in the Bible?

I don't know an exact figure, but most of the prophets began their ministry as prophets as young men. Jeremiah makes a point of telling us that he was a youth when the Lord called him (Jer. 1:5). Daniel was also evidently a very young man, if not a teenager, when he began serving as a prophet; he was a youth when God enabled him to interpret Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Dan. 2, cf. Dan. 1:3-4; 2:1). In the NT, Jesus' apostles evidently included several younger men when they were called to be apostles; John the son of Zebedee was apparently a teenager.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Is the Proclamation on the Family a revelation?

Do you know the definition of scripture? Holy men writing as they are moved upon by the Holy Spirit.

So, yeah, the Proclamation on the Family certainly qualifies, based upon the fact that it was written by holy men as they were moved upon by the Holy Spirit.

Edited by Ahab
0

Share this post


Link to post

Ahab, I'm not putting down seniors. I'll be one myself in a few years. My point is a much more serious one.

I think your point was, and still is, the Church ain't what it used to be, and my point is that we, as an organized body of believers, just keep getting better and better.

1

Share this post


Link to post

Lurker,

You wrote:

I don't know an exact figure, but most of the prophets began their ministry as prophets as young men. Jeremiah makes a point of telling us that he was a youth when the Lord called him (Jer. 1:5). Daniel was also evidently a very young man, if not a teenager, when he began serving as a prophet; he was a youth when God enabled him to interpret Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Dan. 2, cf. Dan. 1:3-4; 2:1). In the NT, Jesus' apostles evidently included several younger men when they were called to be apostles; John the son of Zebedee was apparently a teenager.

So when they got old they were no longer prophets?

0

Share this post


Link to post

The OT prophet Samuel went as a small child to live with the prophet Eli and be taught all he would need to take on the mantle of prophet. It was understood that he would be the prophet. This is similar to Latter-day prophets who are called as young men to offices in the councils of the church which will give them training and preparation to preside over the church. Even Moses, who was called directly by God, still received council from his father-in-law. With age comes wisdom and when the mantle of prophet is bestowed we can be sure that our latter-day prophets have been through the gristmill and refined.

1

Share this post


Link to post

stem,

Yes, God can do as he pleases. But you're ignoring the overall, big picture. If your leaders claim to be Spirit-led leaders, but act like bureaucrats except once every fifty years or so, the claim that they are prophets is merely hypothetical, not practical.

If God can do anything he wants, he can have the church led by apostles for its first generation and afterward have no more apostles, which is what God seems to have done at the end of the first century. I'm comfortable with that. Why aren't you?

0

Share this post


Link to post

kolipoli,

I was careful to make clear that the drying up of new additions to the canon was only one piece of the evidence.

If you're going to include mission calls, then you will have to do so on the evangelical side as well (fair is fair!). Tens of thousands of evangelicals affirm every year that God has called them to missions. If that's what you mean by continuing revelation, we got it covered!

While I thank you for your assessment as you see it, I see a number of moments where you've perhaps misunderstood Mormon thought.

Your definitions of "charismatic" and "spirit-driven" are inseparable connected with the term "open canon." Latter-day Saints accept that God continues to reveal His will through His Prophets just as He did in ancient times. When conditions are such that a new revelation is required, we believe that God speaks to His living oracle. You may misunderstand the fact that not everything considered "revelation" has been canonized, but is still considered a belief or doctrine in the Church. Not everything spoken in General Conference should be characterized as "platitudinous speeches." In fact, some of the most "charismatic" and "spirit-driven" experiences of my life have been while listening to many of these sermons.

Revelations include mission calls (though not canonized as many D&C mission calls are). That accounts for well-over 25,000 calls issued by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve each year. In my own experience, I know my call came from the Lord, precisely because of the experiences I had on that mission that confirmed to me that the call was inspired.

Policy changes and First Presidency statements are commonplace. Where I have seen the most impact has been through the Church Educational System, where students from around the world who would otherwise have little post-high school education are able to receive it in an environment where both the spiritual and the secular are harmonized like a modern version of the School of the Prophets.

0

Share this post


Link to post

My friend, I am sorry that my words have brought you to this point.

May I suggest that you read the proclamations -- Proclamation for the Family, and The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles. Listen to Bruce R. McConkie's last talk in General Conference on his personal witness of Christ. Pres. Bentley's speech on Pride (and Elder Uchtdof's recent talk on the same subject.

Read the talk on how missionaries are called and assigned their missions through revelation in the last conference. I will look it up if you are interested.I have had personal experiences with those church leaders, both general authorities and local leaders. I can tell you that I know that I have indeed seen, and know the church is lead by revelation. Perhaps not dramatic events like the First Vision, but the Lord is leading the church.

I also believe that Christian churches are lead by inspiration as well. But doctrine and ordinances are important. If we want to go into the kingdom of heaven, Christ was very pointed that there is a narrow, straight path. Paul taught us that the church would require prophets and apostles indefinitely, as well as the other offices.

If we want to have the church that Christ organized, the scriptures make clear that it is lead by those who have the authority, by those who have the keys on earth and in heaven.

The church has indeed grown up, and its not the church of our pioneer fathers, but with a membership of 13 million. Some of the responsibilities have changed, but the basics are still there -- lead by Christ through prophets and apostles as Paul told us it would be.

Edited by cdowis
1

Share this post


Link to post

DeepThinker,

Perhaps, instead of sarcasm, you might offer something of substance. Just how do you think the current apostles and prophets are selected? When is the last time one of them claimed to have had anything like either a Damascus Road or Sacred Grove experience? Do any of the current apostles and prophets claim that Christ appeared to them and called them to their offices?

Wow ! You really have some exclusive insight into how the current apostles and prophets were selected !

Didn't realize that our Church leaders had taken you into their confidence.

Congratulations !

0

Share this post


Link to post

Lurker,

Are you trying to obscure the issue, or do you not even realize you are doing so?

The issue is when and how the alleged prophets are called, as part of the larger picture of whether they even act or function like prophets. Try to get the big picture of what I'm arguing.

So when they got old they were no longer prophets?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.