• Announcements

    • Nemesis

      Contact Us Broken   09/27/2016

      Users, It has come to our attention that the contact us feature on the site is broken.  Please do not use this feature to contact board admins.  Please go through normal channels.  If you are ignored there then assume your request was denied. Also if you try to email us that email address is pretty much ignored.  Also don't contact us to complain, ask for favors, donations, or any other thing that you may think would annoy us.  Nemesis

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

DonBradley

"Dating Fanny Alger"

100 posts in this topic

"Dating Fanny Alger: The Nature, Timing, and Consequences of an Early Polygamous Relationship"

Presenter: Don Bradley

Fanny Alger left Joseph and Emma Smith

0

Share this post


Link to post
"Dating Fanny Alger: The Nature, Timing, and Consequences of an Early Polygamous Relationship"

Presenter: Don Bradley

Fanny Alger left Joseph and Emma Smith

0

Share this post


Link to post

Sounds interesting. Will this be published anywhere?

Thanks,

Pahoran

X2

0

Share this post


Link to post

I strongly expect it will, but first I need to get it into publishable shape and submit it! It would likely be a piece for the Journal of Mormon History.

This paper covers the narrative of events--what happened when and after Emma discovered the relationship, and what implications this has for whether it was a marriage and the like. It doesn't primarily address the marriage issue. However...I have a paper that does, and it will be published by the end of September. It is titled "Polygamy before Nauvoo? The Case of Fanny Alger" and will serve as the lead essay of the John Whitmer Historical Association's three-volume set on Mormon polygamy.

Both essays have never-before-used evidence and will be (imho) groundbreaking. The Sunstone piece will narrow the window for Emma's discovery of Joseph's relationship with Fanny Alger to a two-week window. It didn't happen when anyone has thought it did, and when it did happen has surprisingly significant implications both for understanding the nature of the relationship and for solves other puzzles of the Kirtland era, including one that is particularly juicy.... :P

Don

0

Share this post


Link to post

"Dating Fanny Alger: The Nature, Timing, and Consequences of an Early Polygamous Relationship"

Presenter: Don Bradley

Fanny Alger left Joseph and Emma Smith

0

Share this post


Link to post

Was there ever any DNA tests done on the descendants of the child? I don't recall reading about it; the ones I have read about have all proved that Joseph Smith was not the father.

Ah, I'll need to address that in the paper. Perhaps after the presentation I can post about it. (I don't want to steal my own thunder, a phrase which for some reason now reminds me of Percy Jackson.) I have evidence on what happened there.

Don

0

Share this post


Link to post

Ah, I'll need to address that in the paper. Perhaps after the presentation I can post about it. (I don't want to steal my own thunder, a phrase which for some reason now reminds me of Percy Jackson.) I have evidence on what happened there.

Don

It doesn't seem that Fanny's reputation was harmed by the relationship. In fact, both the father and mother of fanny seemed proud that fanny was sealed to Joseph Smith when they were settled in utah. And fanny went on to be a wife and mother of several children when she married after she left the mormon settlement. And to my knowledge she never had a bad word to say about joseph smith.

But of course, I could be wrong about all this. :P

0

Share this post


Link to post

Was there ever any DNA tests done on the descendants of the child?

Yes. He wasn't Joseph's:

In 2005, Perego said DNA testing also ruled out three other alleged male descendants
0

Share this post


Link to post

Interesting that, according to Chauncy Webb, Emma 'drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house,' yet Fanny was carrying a child who has been proven not to have been fathered by the Prophet.

It is interesting that the more facts we have, the worse Joseph's detractors look, and those who rely upon them.

Glenn

0

Share this post


Link to post

Was there ever any DNA tests done on the descendants of the child? I don't recall reading about it; the ones I have read about have all proved that Joseph Smith was not the father.

DNA results confirmed that Orrison Smith,who was the first child of Fanny, was in fact NOTa descendent of Joseph Smith.

0

Share this post


Link to post

I see this as a possible scenario -- Joseph is sealed to Fannie to overcome the shame that she is an unwed mother, Emma is outraged and drives her out.

0

Share this post


Link to post

It is interesting that the more facts we have, the worse Joseph's detractors look, and those who rely upon them.

Glenn

Interesting comment, Glenn. Has Don shared his facts with you to allow you to reach this judgment so far ahead of the rest of us?

0

Share this post


Link to post

It doesn't seem that Fanny's reputation was harmed by the relationship. In fact, both the father and mother of fanny seemed proud that fanny was sealed to Joseph Smith when they were settled in utah. And fanny went on to be a wife and mother of several children when she married after she left the mormon settlement. And to my knowledge she never had a bad word to say about joseph smith.

But of course, I could be wrong about all this. :P

When was the sealing power restored?

0

Share this post


Link to post

I see this as a possible scenario -- Joseph is sealed to Fannie to overcome the shame that she is an unwed mother, Emma is outraged and drives her out.

Perhaps. Let me add one then -- Joseph was caught *comforting* the newly pregnant teenage Fanny in the barn when Emma spied on them. Emma never really saw the details and only assumed the worst, this because of her natural jealousy. Joseph's motives were simply to console the poor girl, not to conduct an intimate "transaction". Also, polygamy had not been introduced by Joseph yet and there was never any sealing or marriage between them. The reason Fanny stayed loyal to the saints and refused to discuss the details of the situation later in life is because Joseph treated her so humanely when others wouldn't and the details were embarrassing.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Was there ever any DNA tests done on the descendants of the child? I don't recall reading about it; the ones I have read about have all proved that Joseph Smith was not the father.

The Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation did a full study on all the descendants of those claiming to be sired by Joseph. None were his outside the Emma line. I have the published paper at home, but am gone until the end of the week.

0

Share this post


Link to post

DNA results confirmed that Orrison Smith,who was the first child of Fanny, was in fact NOTa descendent of Joseph Smith.

Which "Smith" is he a descendant of then?

0

Share this post


Link to post

hey DonBradley,

Does your paper reconcile these two items?

1. polygamy as loop-holed in the Book of Mormon was supposed to be for raising up righteous seed unto the Lord:

http://scriptures.ld...g/en/jacob/2#30

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up aseed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

2. Joseph Smith had upwards of 33 wives, but no children <removal of accidental rhyme> came from his own polygamy (*pointing at statements above which show that Joseph only had 9 children with Emma*) . Why was Joseph following a different rule for polygamy with the other 30-something-something women than the other saints like Heber & Brigham just doing what their prophet said God wanted them to do? :question through analogy on agriculture removed: And when you look at the openness and helpful nature of the sister-wives in other polygamous families (even today with the FLDS) compared to Joseph's <edited> method you can't justifiably say that Joseph's wives were in any way *helpful* to Emma. Too many discrepancies.

0

Share this post


Link to post

We ought to keep in mind and see the type of good reputation Emma had by the fact that after Josephs death she married Lewis Bidemon who had an affair and Emma did not react the way described, in fact Emma took in the child and raised it as her own.

0

Share this post


Link to post

The Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation did a full study on all the descendants of those claiming to be sired by Joseph. None were his outside the Emma line. I have the published paper at home, but am gone until the end of the week.

Just to clarify, their research have not confirmed any children outside of Emma as of yet, but the two most likely children have not been tested. Josephine Lyon hasn't been confirmed one way or another because DNA technology has not advanced to the point where they can trace female genes yet (Ugo Pergo, the expert doing the research, is hopeful that will be soon). The other child, Olivia Gray Frost, died on the trek west, so we may never know. For more on this, see Brian Hales's info here. So, while the quoted statement above is largely correct, it still should have a small asterisk.

But, regardless of proven children, it should not be assumed that no confirmed kids means that JS's polygamous marriages were "consummated," or that at least some purpose for them didn't involve procreation. Contemporary documentation argues there was, and, if that wasn't convincing enough, many of Smith's plural wives admitted that there were sexual relations. See documentative evidence here. (Brian Hales has really done a great service in making his research available online.)

Don: this looks fascinating. I really wish I could attend your session.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Oh, and I should add, that the research linked to above that is found on Brian Hales's site is in large part due to Don, as well. A prince, I tell you!

0

Share this post


Link to post

Josephine Lyon hasn't been confirmed one way or another because DNA technology has not advanced to the point where they can trace female genes yet (Ugo Pergo, the expert doing the research, is hopeful that will be soon).

You heard from Ugo that DNA technology cannot trace female genes? I doubt it.

Google "maternity test" to find dozens of companies who do it for less that $100. People have been doing this for years, including Ugo's mentor Scott Woodward who has even done it on Egyptian mummies.

1

Share this post


Link to post

You heard from Ugo that DNA technology cannot trace female genes? I doubt it.

Google "maternity test" to find dozens of companies who do it for less that $100. People have been doing this for years, including Ugo's mentor Scott Woodward who has even done it on Egyptian mummies.

I don't know how it works, I'm just repeating what he said, and I trust he knows what he's talking about. See here and here.

0

Share this post


Link to post

Perhaps. Let me add one then -- Joseph was caught *comforting* the newly pregnant teenage Fanny in the barn when Emma spied on them. Emma never really saw the details and only assumed the worst, this because of her natural jealousy. Joseph's motives were simply to console the poor girl, not to conduct an intimate "transaction". Also, polygamy had not been introduced by Joseph yet and there was never any sealing or marriage between them. The reason Fanny stayed loyal to the saints and refused to discuss the details of the situation later in life is because Joseph treated her so humanely when others wouldn't and the details were embarrassing.

As long as we are speculating -- If Fanny was already pregnant then she was clearly willing to have sex outside of marriage. Why wouldn't she have sex within a spiritual (if not legal) marriage? She wasn't visibly pregnant at the time Emma caught them in the barn and pregnant teenagers can still have sex. The great part about that (if you are a married man) is that you can't get her pregnant.

0

Share this post


Link to post

As long as we are speculating -- If Fanny was already pregnant then she was clearly willing to have sex outside of marriage.

How do you know she was willing!? Was there no such thing a rape in 1800s? (and I'm speaking to the cause of her pregnancy)

0

Share this post


Link to post
How do you know she was willing!? Was there no such thing a rape in 1800s? (and I'm speaking to the cause of her pregnancy)

She shouldn't have been showing so much ankle.

USU "They've got it coming when they do that" 78

0

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.