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Greg Smith

Will Schryver's Book of Abraham talk

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I don't usually do this, but I think this occasion merits it.

I won't be making it to the FAIR conference this year due to other commitments.

Knowing my interest, Will Schryver was kind enough to let me see his slides and presentation on the Book of Abraham "Kirtland Egyptian Papers."

I am not an expert on the Book of Abraham; I follow it with interest but from a distance.

Schryver has, I think, pretty much killed, buried, and nailed the coffin shut on the idea the KEP are the "translation documents" of the Book of Abraham, and then thrown the coffin into Mount Doom, before dropping Mt Doom under the continental plates.

I suspect that it will soon be historically indefensible to claim that at least the first three chapters of the BoA were translated later than between 4-17 July 1835. And, what Will has discovered/concluded also has some broader implications for the history of that period that will be quite interesting--some of the implications are obvious to me immediately; others more deft than me will doubtless see other things.

The only question I had at the end was, "Why have the critics (esp those with access to photos of the papers) not figured this stuff out already? The 40-year assumptions that the papers were translation docs are clearly false. Even Nibley bobbled this one.

But, more mature reflection tells us why the critics haven't dug any deeper. They will have to now, if they're going to be taken at all seriously. But, it's not bad to eviscerate the foundation of most critical approaches in a stroke. That may sound like hyperbole, but in this case I think it's deadly accurate.

So, if you're on the fence about going to the conference, I think Will's presentation alone is worth your time.

Congrats on a job well done, and I look forward to seeing what others think when the data all becomes "public." And, my thanks to Will for allowing me a "sneak peak." I hope no one asks me about the issue between now and then, because I'd be hard pressed to keep my mouth shut. :-)

Best to all,

Greg

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I won't be able to go either, but I hope the live streaming will work really well this year. I subscribed last year and there were some technical difficulties. You tech guys, please make it do able this year!

Oh, yes, Greg, when did truth, even obvious truth stop a critic?

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Can't wait to hear it.

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Hi Greg,

Thanks for the teaser. I have been anxiously awaiting Will's presentation for months now--and this ever since he and I actively participated together on a couple of BoA threads where we had come independantly to similar conclusions (me by way of historical analysis and he by way of yet to be disclosed analysis).

I wasn't priviledged enough to get more than a hint of what his analysis entailed, but just enough to have confidence that he would deliver on his public promises.

Be sure to also tune into Gee's presentation because it is supposed to dovetail nicely with what Will has to say.

And, from what I have surmized, both presentations are but a preview of a far more extensive, game-changing analysis to be published in a book by Schryver, Gee, and Haglid. Great stuff!

Please know, though, that no matter how pursuasive the presentations, good folks and non-professionals like Kevin Graham will easily be able to shred them to pieces and sweep them into the dustbins of failed apologetics. :P

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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A comment before hearing his magnum opus.

I have previously commented that the KEP was perhaps only an attempt to understand and perhaps duplicate the process of translation by the associates of JS.

So, it is interesting, but no big deal. And, before getting your panties in a wad, it does not disprove this PROCESS of translation, including the use of the BOD manuscript.

Once again, I predict that Tvedtnes's research and theory in this area will be generally accepted when all other theories fail (the Sherlock Holmes principle).

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If Will can pull all that off, it will be quite monumental. I guess time will tell.

Does the FAIR conference have "respondents" to allow someone to provide a critique of the presentation afterward? That would probably be extremely helpful as well.

The only question I had at the end was, "Why have the critics (esp those with access to photos of the papers) not figured this stuff out already? The 40-year assumptions that the papers were translation docs are clearly false. Even Nibley bobbled this one.

The only question I have is why aren't high quality photos made available to everyone, believer and critic alike? Will they be available in an upcoming edition of the Joseph Smith papers?

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The only question I have is why aren't high quality photos made available to everyone, believer and critic alike? Will they be available in an upcoming edition of the Joseph Smith papers?

If they are, would you have to have two copies?

:P

Lehi

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From what Will has told me, most of his findings were a result of his using the bad photocopies and transcriptions of the KEP that were published back in the late 70s by Michael Marquardt. I think they are available online, but I don

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If Will can pull all that off, it will be quite monumental. I guess time will tell.

Does the FAIR conference have "respondents" to allow someone to provide a critique of the presentation afterward? That would probably be extremely helpful as well.

The only question I have is why aren't high quality photos made available to everyone, believer and critic alike? Will they be available in an upcoming edition of the Joseph Smith papers?

Brent Metcalfe kept the photos private. Ironically, it will be the church that finally gives access not the critics.

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What I would like to see is a public debate on this stuff. Kind of like Ashment and Nibley did back in the 70s. I

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What would a public debate accomplish? They need to publish their findings just like Will is doing. However, the usual procedure when something comes to light that doesn't support them is to just stop talking about it and move on to the next talking point as if nothing ever happened.

Pure entertainment value! Plain and simple.

I agree with you totally about the formal process of publishing findings. I look forward to that, too. Still, I think it would be fun to see a debate.

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If they are, would you have to have two copies?

:P

Lehi

Not at all. We can share.

jekyll_hyde.jpg

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Brent Metcalfe kept the photos private. Ironically, it will be the church that finally gives access not the critics.

CFR

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The only question I have is why aren't high quality photos made available to everyone, believer and critic alike? Will they be available in an upcoming edition of the Joseph Smith papers?

Really? The only question? Talk about a lack of imagination. :-)

The short answer is that "high quality photos" are not needed for Will's solution. At all.

But, yes, I understand that everything will be published by 2011, so that will no longer be an excuse. But, it won't make any difference about Will's basic insights and argument, unless I have grossly misunderstood it.

GLS

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A comment before hearing his magnum opus.

I have previously commented that the KEP was perhaps only an attempt to understand and perhaps duplicate the process of translation by the associates of JS.

I think you will find that explanation is both (a) not necessary and, more importantly (b) extraordinarily unlikely, once you see what Will has.

Honestly, I think everyone involved is going be to saying (to themselves, if not publicly), "Dang, why didn't I notice all that?"

It's the sort of thing that once someone points it out, it is manifestly obvious and true.

A good example of how amateur (in the best sense of the word) scholarship can actually advance the discussion very well by someone who is persistent and dedicated. There aren't a lot of areas where that is possible, but LDS studies happily remains one of them.

Greg

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But, yes, I understand that everything will be published by 2011, so that will no longer be an excuse.

In a privately published book for profit? If this is the case, this just seems wrong to me.

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I won't be able to go either, but I hope the live streaming will work really well this year. I subscribed last year and there were some technical difficulties. You tech guys, please make it do able this year!

Streaming???? Where can I sign up?

If Will can pull all that off, it will be quite monumental. I guess time will tell.

Does the FAIR conference have "respondents" to allow someone to provide a critique of the presentation afterward? That would probably be extremely helpful as well.

Youtube comments??

I will play prophet and make a prediction. The replies will take one or more of the follow forms:

a) a studied silence

b) extensive reference to what a horrible guy Will Schyrver is, and the nasty things he has said or written

c) ignoring Will all together, and continuing to make the same old arguments (after all, when has a decisive rebuttal ever penetrated the inbred, one-inch deep pool that is written anti-Mormonism?

d) a marked failure to understand or follow the argument.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong. But will I? Stay tuned, gentle reader....

GLS

e) all of the above <--- this one

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In a privately published book for profit? If this is the case, this just seems wrong to me.

Why? Printing books costs money, to say nothing of the time needed to prepare the material by the editors/authors. [The laborer is worthy of his hire, after all.]

I expect this will be more involved than your average paperback, since it will have color reproductions.

Think of the calibre of the Joseph Smith Papers Project books; they aren't cheap, but they're lovely and good scholarly tools (check out the Revelations Vol 1 book on the early D&C stuff to see what I mean).

But, there are things like inter-library loans if one wants to check something--the Marquardt/Tanner volume from the 1970s will give you most of what you need anyway, and you can then borrow the new volume to check any small details.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Church eventually also release digital images on-line or DVD like they did for some of their other holdings. I understand that an expanded digital presence if on their to-do list. When the Church does such things, it may take time, but they usually do it nice and do it right.

GLS

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CFR

:P They were published for all to see? Where do I get a copy?

(and to spare off-topic nitpicking, I should have specified his photos, meaning those he does have, rather than saying "the" photos as if he has photos of everything. There is just an element of hypocrisy in insisting one side should publish what they have in their possession when the other isn't expected to.)

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In a privately published book for profit? If this is the case, this just seems wrong to me.

Are you aware of a publishing house that will publish scholars work for free? Just be glad they won't be going to Brill.

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I will play prophet and make a prediction. The replies will take one or more of the follow forms:

a) a studied silence

b) extensive reference to what a horrible guy Will Schyrver is, and the nasty things he has said or written

c) ignoring Will all together, and continuing to make the same old arguments (after all, when has a decisive rebuttal ever penetrated the inbred, one-inch deep pool that is written anti-Mormonism?

d) a marked failure to understand or follow the argument.

I predict that Greg, Wade and Nomad will experience their own personal rapture during Will's presentation.

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I predict that Greg, Wade and Nomad will experience their own personal rapture during Will's presentation.

Too late, I just experienced it with your predictably edifyng contribution to this thread.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Are you aware of a publishing house that will publish scholars work for free? Just be glad they won't be going to Brill.

yes I am.

mobipocket free epub software.

OpenOffice

peer2peer network.

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I predict that Greg, Wade and Nomad will experience their own personal rapture during Will's presentation.

Nah, I'm a post-tribulationist, so I haven't had near enough tribulation on this topic yet.

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