Abraham Lied

[William Schryver]

One of the interesting things is that Abraham seems certain that if Pharoah/Abimilech want Sarah for his harem, they will kill Abraham if they find out they are married. But in both accounts, Pharoah/Abimilech is put out with Abraham for lying to him and Abimilech says that Abraham almost caused him to sin by having relations with a married woman.

I told the class that the accounts make Pharoah/Abimilech out in a better light than Abraham. (There was a bit of disgruntlement at this observation, but it was hard to argue against.)

Also, somebody in class mentioned that Sarah was Abraham's half-sister, and so it was not technically a lie. I said that there are two schools of thought on this. First, we have to note that nowhere does the narrator of the story say that this is the case, and that it only comes up when Abraham is backing-and-filling for his behavior in the Abimilech story.

One school of thought is that Abraham is telling the truth here, regardless of the fact that it is not corroborated in the narrative.

The other school of thought is that Abraham is continuing to come up with excuses to justify his behavior.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. Something that occurred to me after class is that Abraham who comes from the Shemite land of Ur, might mistakenly think that he would be killed under those circumstances, but it appears that when he gets to Canaan lands, including Egypt (Pharoah) and Gerar (Abimilech), he finds out things are different there.

In this way, not only does the text make Canaanite rulers look better than the Shemite Abraham, but it appears that the Canaanite culture may be more advanced in this respect than the "chosen" Shemite line.

I think your interpretations of these things are completely out in left field. Your understanding of the narrative is fragmentary, at best.

It's almost as though you intentionally set out to identify elements you believe are shocking and controversial, in order to focus on those things in your lesson. What a profound disservice you are doing to yourself and your class.

[Joseph Antley]

Incidentally, withholding truth is not the same as lying. The notion that people have a right to truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is mistaken, and certainly inconsistent with the wisdom and economy of God. I realize that is a difficult concept for some, but it is nonetheless true.

The couple's clear goal was to deceive him into thinking that they weren't married. Sarah told him that she was Abraham's sister so that he would think that they weren't married. If you don't consider that lying, your definition is strangely narrow.

Do you disagree with Brother Matthews?

"Even sharing the truth can have the effect of lying when we tell only half-truths that do not give a full picture. We can also be guilty of bearing false witness and lying if we say nothing, particularly if we allow another to reach a wrong conclusion while we hold back information that would have led to a more accurate perception. In this case it is as though an actual lie were uttered." (Robert J. Matthews,

[William Schryver]

What do we have a bigger problem with - lying or incest?

In many cultures, at many points throughout history, marrying one's half sister was not only accepted, but common, especially in royal lines.

[Joseph Antley]

In many cultures, at many points throughout history, marrying one's half sister was not only accepted, but common, especially in royal lines.

And that should make incest preferable in our minds than believing that Abraham lied?

[Anijen]

I am not a fan of lying, but I can see its advantages in certain situations. I believe that Abraham and God thought this was one of those situations. Morningstar made the comment also about a stranger in her house. There are other times also, say one of Captain Moroni's spys certainly lied hiding his loyalty etc. I have to agree with those that lying is bad but the reality it happens and in certain situations is condoned.

[volgadon]

Yes but nobody would think that if he said she is my sister that means she is his wife.

[consiglieri]

Don't hold back, Consig, how did the lesson go?

Class went splendlidly, thanks in large measure to you. I told the class at the outset that I was going to try to give a bird's-eye view of the entire Abraham cycle, focusing in on the main theme of God's promise to Abraham of an heir and the tension throughout the cycle that the heir never materializes, in spite of three attempts by Abraham and Sarah to "help God out" with his promise by putting forward their own alternatives (Lot, Eliezer and Ishmael).

The story of good, decent folk trying to help God keep his word when God doesn't seem to be taking it seriously, is one with which my class could relate, and the instance of Abraham's lying in order to "help God out" with keeping his promise to protect Abraham is one more thread in the tapestry.

At the end of the class, I mentioned all that Abraham had gone through in order to finally get his heir and have God's promise fulfilled, only to have God turn around and say, "Now, kill him." I suggested this story was difficult enough standing on its own, but when we consider it at the apex of the Abraham cycle, it becomes even more difficult than we may have imagined it before.

All seemed to agree, except for this older doughty sister who raised her hand and opined that she was more advanced in the scriptures than perhaps anyone else present, so she saw it differently, saying that it really wasn't a difficult test for Abraham to be ordered to slay Isaac because Abraham had complete faith in God and knew that he wouldn't have to follow through on it. (I was surprised by her reading, but listened politely, thinking this is the far end of the spectrum for those who refuse to see anything in a scriptural character other than out-and-out perfection in all things. Rather staid and boring for my taste, but others see things differently.)

A blue collar brother talked to me after class and said he was in awe of me for not coming down on this sister like a ton of bricks, but just letting her have her say.

Anyway, never a dull moment in gospel doctrine class, the acme of free expression and open dialogue on all things Mormon.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[the narrator]

Hmmm. I have always understood that lying was a sin. Doesn't it appear in the big 10?

No. Bearing false witness appears in the big 10--this is about leveling false charges about the previous 8 commandments, not about simply saying something that is not factually true.

[Spurven Ten Sing]

In many cultures, at many points throughout history, marrying one's half sister was not only accepted, but common, especially in royal lines.

In another thread, a person commented that relations with a 12 year old on the part of a 38 year old were not inherently wrong. Do you feel incest would also fall into this category?

[volgadon]

I have to agree with those that lying is bad but the reality it has happens and in certain situations is condoned.

same thing with killing.

[William Schryver]

The couple's clear goal was to deceive him into thinking that they weren't married. Sarah told him that she was Abraham's sister so that he would think that they weren't married. If you don't consider that lying, your definition is strangely narrow.

Do you disagree with Brother Matthews?

"Even sharing the truth can have the effect of lying when we tell only half-truths that do not give a full picture. We can also be guilty of bearing false witness and lying if we say nothing, particularly if we allow another to reach a wrong conclusion while we hold back information that would have led to a more accurate perception. In this case it is as though an actual lie were uttered." (Robert J. Matthews,

[Spurven Ten Sing]

No. Bearing false witness appears in the big 10--this is about leveling false charges about the previous 8 commandments, not about simply saying something that is not factually true.

I have never thought of it that way. I have always presumed bearing false witness translates to lying. So lying is acceptable according to you?

[katherine the great]

Where does the idea that Sarah was Abraham's NIECE instead of half sister come from? The last two lessons I've heard on Abraham stated that she was his niece and yet I've never read any scripture anywhere that even implies this. I didn't want to interrupt the flow of the lesson to ask about it, but it is severely perplexing me. As to the lying: Who cares? If I knew someone was going to kill me and take my family as slaves if I didn't lie, I would lie. It's the lesser of the two evils.

[Eric Blob]

Apparently you paid no attention, or have no intention of paying attention, to Will's comments above.

The coin of the realm, I suppose.

"Mormonism" on the Internet? Oh yes, you mean "Internet Mormonism" as over against "chapel Mormonism".

Many of our critics are like that guy some decades ago who cut out the big wooden feet, attached them to his shoes, and ran around the woods in the Pacific Northwest making Bigfoot tracks. A great many people bought into their authenticity, and that legend, like the legends of "neo-orthodoxy" and "chapel Mormonism" will never go away, no matter what the future holds for the intellectually honest and humble of heart.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm a mormon, not an anti-mormon.

Also, there's a good article of fairwiki about "Internet mormons" vs. "Chapel mormons", which is a good read, and I agree almost wholly with the article.

I'm just saying, someone can come on the Internet, and be presented with a list of lies that prophets have said. If you believe that prophets don't lie, then you won't know how to defend the church against its critics. This doesn't happen so often at church (I suppose someone could walk in during a testimony meeting, or hijack a Sunday School lesson, and read a list of lies prophets have said, but this is a rare occurance, I think it's fair to say).

Whether or not Abraham did 'lie' (although I believe he did, but I do understand other's points of view), other prophets have lied before.

[Joseph Antley]

I suppose I do disagree with Br. Matthews--or at least with what appears to be your interpretation of what he wrote.

Anyone who is naive enough to believe that holding back information, under any circumstances, is "lying" and therefore sinful or wicked, deserves whatever bad things happen to them on account of their stupidity.

Once again, I assert that one of the most profound elements of the restored gospel is this teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

I wasn't aware that anyone here equated "lying" with being "sinful or wicked". And yes, I mentioned the Joseph Smith quote on the previous page. It's very applicable.

[William Schryver]

I am not a fan of lying, but I can see its advantages in certain situations. I believe that Abraham and God thought this was one of those situations. Morningstar made the comment also about a stranger in her house. There are other times also, say one of Captain Moroni's spys certainly lied hiding his loyalty etc. I have to agree with those that lying is bad but the reality it happens and in certain situations is condoned.

Here's a little secret:

The wise and prudent use of knowledge is one of the hallmarks of godliness. Those who fail to master the nuances of this principle will never be entrusted with all that God hath.

[Spurven Ten Sing]

Here's a little secret:

The wise and prudent use of knowledge is one of the hallmarks of godliness. Those who fail to master the nuances of this principle will never be entrusted with all that God hath.

Could you translate this for me? Are you positing that God loves best those who lie?

[Droopy]

Its amazing how many people here would not have lied to the Gestapo about the Jews in their attic. A nice Kantian touch to the gospel, but I don't believe a legitimate part of it.

Similarly, when early Apostles rode around the countryside in disguise, hiding their true identity, this was, in essence, a from of lying, with the intent being to deceive.

By this logic, FBI agents who lie to a major drug dealer or terrorist suspect to lure him into a sting, are committing sins as bad as those being committed by the criminals they seek to apprehend. As the disinformation sent out by allied intelligence intended to convince Hitler that the D-Day invasion was not at Normandy was a lie, it was a sin, and to be condemned. Just how far, I wonder, can this logic be extended?

Fascinating really.

[Vindicator]

In analyzing the Abraham cycle in Gospel Doctrine class yesterday, I was surprised at how much resistance there was to the seemingly straightforward Genesis story that Abraham had Sarah lie about their relationship to Pharoah (and again later in what appears to be the same story with Abimilech).

One class member said that was how everybody referred to their wives, was as "my sister," so there was no deception.

I threw in that that must be the reason Abraham had a huddle with Sarah beforehand to make sure she said it the way everybody said it and didn't goof it up.

Another member said that Abraham was telling the truth, but that he just wasn't telling the whole truth in order to give an impression that was correct, but not entirely correct.

I remarked, "So you're saying that Abraham is the first lawyer mentioned in the Bible?" (Mucho laughter.) "Like Abraham Lincoln. Hey, he was a lawyer, too. I think you're onto something."

At bottom, in order to keep the class from revolt, I modified my statement that Abraham lied to saying, "One thing I think we can agree on is that Abraham made sure that the entire truth about his relationship with Sarah was not revealed."

I added that this was especially interesting because God had promised Abraham protection, but this is one instance (among many) where Abraham feels that God may need a little help keeping his promise; hence the dissimulation.

Any thoughts as to why this story about Abraham met such resistance in class?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

A) Through Linage she was in fact his "Sister"

B) Lie or not, Abe was given a Commandment by the Lord to tell that she was his Sister.

C) Unless you just need something to argue about, please read the "Joseph Smith Translation" on this, it pretty much clears it all up!

Vindicator

[Joseph Antley]

By this logic, FBI agents who lie to a major drug dealer or terrorist suspect to lure him into a sting, are committing sins as bad as those being committed by the criminals they seek to apprehend. As the disinformation sent out by allied intelligence intended to convince Hitler that the D-Day invasion was not at Normandy was a lie, it was a sin, and to be condemned. Just how far, I wonder, can this logic be extended?

As far as I know, no one here contending that Abraham lied is contending that he sinned.

[the narrator]

I have never thought of it that way. I have always presumed bearing false witness translates to lying. So lying is acceptable according to you?

Sometimes lying can be condoned. I think examples have already been given in this thread.

[Deborah]

Incidentally, withholding truth is not the same as lying. The notion that people have a right to truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is mistaken, and certainly inconsistent with the wisdom and economy of God.

I have given several depositions related to my work. In each case our attorney advises to answer the question, but not to fill in any details. Answer only what is asked. In other words don't give them information they don't have if they don't ask for it.

I don't see how anyone can think that not telling everything is the same as "lying." Many of us withhold information in some cases to protect others. We tell the truth but not necessarily the whole ugly story. I've had friends or family say things about other friends or family members. Why am I under any obligation to share the details of what someone tells me if it might cause more hard feelings?

The commandment given to Moses was to not bear false witness against your neighbor. False witness is not the same as withholding and is in fact an active form of trying to hurt someone. I like the definition of liar in I John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?"

[consiglieri]

If it hasn't become clear yet, I wanted to take one class to devote to all the stories about Abraham from Genesis 12 to Genesis 25, or so, because some things you can see better when looking at the entire forest than by looking at each of the trees individually (and vice-versa, of course).

During class, we also talked about the same "types" of stories that are told throughout the cycle of Abraham, and other cycles, as well.

Sarah is the first example of the type story of a barren woman having a miracle baby by divine intervention; that this continues with Rebekah, and on down to Hannah, as well as into the New Testament with Elizabeth and Mary herself being a variant of that theme.

I also mentioned that the "matriarch in peril" type story of Sarah being taken into Pharoah's harem; a lie being told about the relationship with her husband, a curse upon Pharoah's house, and her subsequent release together with the enrichment of her husband, is encountered three times in Genesis: (1) The first account with Abraham and Pharoah at the beginning of the cycle; (2) The second account with Abraham and Abimilech toward the end of the cycle; and, (3) The account of Isaac and Abimilech shortly after the Abraham cycle is concluded.

I mentioned that it is difficult to say whether these are three really similar stories that actually happened three different times, or whether these are three slightly different accounts of the same story recorded in different places in the structural narrative.

I also mentioned that we had a similar situation with the two accounts of the angelic annunciation of the birth of Isaac; that in the first story, it is Abraham who laughs ("laughter" being the Hebrew word for "Isaac"); and in the second story that immediately follows, it is Sarah who laughs. Once again, it is hard to say whether these are two separate historic events that are just really similar, or whether it is an instance of two variants of the same story being included in Genesis.

One of the interesting moments in class was when I was talking about the first of these stories where Abraham laughs, and the ward Sunday school president pipes up and corrects me that it was Sarah who laughed, not Abraham. I had to gently inform him that Sarah laughs in the second story, and it is Abraham who laughs in the first story. A class member (without waiting to be called upon) read out loud at that point the verse that said Abraham laughed.

So not to worry that I am using all the class time focusing exclusively on prophetic peccadilloes.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mark Beesley]

Finally, I also taught the lesson yesterday. It was Lesson 8, Living Righteously in a Wicked World. The previous lesson was The Abrahamic Covenant. For the life of me I cannot imagine why the question of "Abraham lying" would have come up in either of those lessons.

That was kind of my thought.

We had the lesson on the Abrahamic Covenant yesterday, and the most controversial question that came up was whether or not Abraham was being proud or something when he desired to be the father of many nations. I believe a very good response that contributed to the spirit of the class was given.

[consiglieri]

Could you translate this for me? Are you positing that God loves best those who lie?

So long as their initials are Will S.

No. Wait. That's too obvious.

So long as their intials are W. Schryver.

All the Best!

--Principal Consiglieri