57 replies to this topic

[Rob Bowman]

The LDS manual Gospel Principles states, “When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7)” (13). Again, it states, “When we lived as spirit children with our heavenly parents, our Heavenly Father told us about his plan for us to become more like him. We shouted for joy when we heard his plan (see Job 38:7).” This understanding of Job 38:7 appears elsewhere in LDS sources, such as Ezra Taft Benson’s first Presidency message. I would like to discuss this interpretation. The obvious place to begin is by quoting the passage with some context:

Quote

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
“Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Or who enclosed the sea with doors
When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;
When I made a cloud its garment
And thick darkness its swaddling band,
And I placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,
And I said, ‘Thus far you shall come, but no farther;
And here shall your proud waves stop’?”
(Job 38:1-11 NASB)

I have a few observations about this passage in relation to the LDS understanding of verse 7.

1. The whole train of argument in this passage, which actually includes all of chapters 38-39, is that Job didn’t know what he was talking about because he was not involved and was not even there when the earth was made. The question, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?” (v. 4) is a rhetorical question with the implied, understood answer, “Nowhere around.” Job was not there when Jehovah laid the foundation of the earth and so is in no position to criticize the way God has ordered the world in which Job lives.

2. The passage says absolutely nothing about a plan of salvation, let alone the sons of God shouting for joy about a plan for them to become like God. What seems to have been the reason for the joyful shout was the laying of the foundation for the earth. John Hartley points out, “In an ancient community the laying of a foundation stone for a public building such as a temple was a high occasion and was commemorated by a festive ceremony.”[1] An example of this practice may be seen at the ceremony of the laying of the foundation for the rebuilding of the temple after the Babylonian Exile. At that ceremony, a group of priests played musical instruments and sang when the foundation was laid (Ezra 3:10-11).

3. What strikes some readers as odd, but should be noted here, is that Jehovah’s speeches to Job say nothing about the creation or formation of the human race. The animals that the speeches describe are all wild animals, untamed by human beings.[2] Thus, the context of Job 38:7 doesn’t even say anything about the creation of human beings or their purpose for being here.

It seems to me, then, that the LDS Church misinterprets Job 38:7. Not only does it not teach that human beings preexisted as spirit children of God in heaven, in context Job 38 is denying that human beings (such as Job) existed in heaven when God created the earth. Furthermore, the sons of God shouted for joy, not because they were going to be sent to the earth to become exalted beings, but because the earth was going to be the place where Jehovah, the God of creation, would manifest his glorious presence in the universe.


NOTES

[1] John E. Hartley, The Book of Job, NICOT (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1988), 495.

[2] J. Gerald Janzen, Job, Interpretation (Atlanta: John Knox Press, 1985), 229.

[Zakuska]

We read in Proverbs about the pre-incarnate Christ known as wisdom.

Prov 8
  22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
  23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
  24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
  25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
  26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
  27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
  28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
  29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
  30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
  31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Who were these "sons of men", in whom Wisdom rejoiced "daily" before the creation of old?

Edited by Zakuska, 09 February 2010 - 04:07 PM.

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Rob,

Who do you believe the Sons of God were in Job 38?

[maklelan]

Rob Bowman, on 09 February 2010 - 03:59 PM, said:

The LDS manual Gospel Principles states, “When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7)” (13). Again, it states, “When we lived as spirit children with our heavenly parents, our Heavenly Father told us about his plan for us to become more like him. We shouted for joy when we heard his plan (see Job 38:7).” This understanding of Job 38:7 appears elsewhere in LDS sources, such as Ezra Taft Benson’s first Presidency message. I would like to discuss this interpretation. The obvious place to begin is by quoting the passage with some context:

I have a few observations about this passage in relation to the LDS understanding of verse 7.

1. The whole train of argument in this passage, which actually includes all of chapters 38-39, is that Job didn’t know what he was talking about because he was not involved and was not even there when the earth was made. The question, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?” (v. 4) is a rhetorical question with the implied, understood answer, “Nowhere around.” Job was not there when Jehovah laid the foundation of the earth and so is in no position to criticize the way God has ordered the world in which Job lives.

2. The passage says absolutely nothing about a plan of salvation, let alone the sons of God shouting for joy about a plan for them to become like God. What seems to have been the reason for the joyful shout was the laying of the foundation for the earth. John Hartley points out, “In an ancient community the laying of a foundation stone for a public building such as a temple was a high occasion and was commemorated by a festive ceremony.”[1] An example of this practice may be seen at the ceremony of the laying of the foundation for the rebuilding of the temple after the Babylonian Exile. At that ceremony, a group of priests played musical instruments and sang when the foundation was laid (Ezra 3:10-11).

3. What strikes some readers as odd, but should be noted here, is that Jehovah’s speeches to Job say nothing about the creation or formation of the human race. The animals that the speeches describe are all wild animals, untamed by human beings.[2] Thus, the context of Job 38:7 doesn’t even say anything about the creation of human beings or their purpose for being here.

It seems to me, then, that the LDS Church misinterprets Job 38:7. Not only does it not teach that human beings preexisted as spirit children of God in heaven, in context Job 38 is denying that human beings (such as Job) existed in heaven when God created the earth. Furthermore, the sons of God shouted for joy, not because they were going to be sent to the earth to become exalted beings, but because the earth was going to be the place where Jehovah, the God of creation, would manifest his glorious presence in the universe.


NOTES

[1] John E. Hartley, The Book of Job, NICOT (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1988), 495.

[2] J. Gerald Janzen, Job, Interpretation (Atlanta: John Knox Press, 1985), 229.

The verse is clearly taken out of context when it's used to reference Job's presence. The verse is hardly necessary, however, to support the Latter-day Saint doctrine of premortality.

Now, clearly this phrase "sons of God" is related to Job 1:6 and 2:1's "sons of God," Gen 6:2's "sons of God," Ps 29:1's "sons of God," Deut 32:8's "sons of God," and, most importantly, Psalm 82's "sons of Elyon." If this is incorrect, please let me know. Given what we know (and what I've tried to explain) about the historical context of this concept of God's offspring, was Jesus' application in John 10 of Psalm 82 correct?

Edited by maklelan, 09 February 2010 - 04:28 PM.

[CV75]

Rob Bowman, on 09 February 2010 - 03:59 PM, said:

It seems to me, then, that the LDS Church misinterprets Job 38:7.

It crossed my mind also, but I don't see the inconsistency of the Gospel Doctrine comment with the passage in Job. The rhetorical "Where wast thou?" could equally imply "Thou wast with me." The "foundations of the earth" were spiritual before they were physical, and the subject in council and in planning even before that. The whole purpose of the earth is for the exaltation of God's children (children of Abraham, joint-heirs with Christ, means actual inheritances on a celestial earth), which necessitates its being the place where The Only Begotten Son would fulfill the Father's will in every regard for said salvation.

[consiglieri]

maklelan, on 09 February 2010 - 04:27 PM, said:

The verse is clearly taken out of context when it's used to reference Job's presence. The verse is hardly necessary, however, to support the Latter-day Saint doctrine of premortality.

I agree with Mr. Mak on this, and would suggest this is one of the most frequently used proof-texts for an LDS belief that has nothing to do with the belief itself (i.e. Job's premortal existence).

I even mentioned this to my Sunday school class the other day, but I did follow it up with Mak's well taken point that this verse is not necessary to support the doctrine.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[katherine the great]

All I have to say about it is that it is stunningly beautiful prose poetry.

[zerinus]

Rob Bowman, on 09 February 2010 - 03:59 PM, said:

The LDS manual Gospel Principles states, “When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7)” (13). Again, it states, “When we lived as spirit children with our heavenly parents, our Heavenly Father told us about his plan for us to become more like him. We shouted for joy when we heard his plan (see Job 38:7).” This understanding of Job 38:7 appears elsewhere in LDS sources, such as Ezra Taft Benson’s first Presidency message. I would like to discuss this interpretation. The obvious place to begin is by quoting the passage with some context:


I have a few observations about this passage in relation to the LDS understanding of verse 7.

1. The whole train of argument in this passage, which actually includes all of chapters 38-39, is that Job didn’t know what he was talking about because he was not involved and was not even there when the earth was made. The question, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?” (v. 4) is a rhetorical question with the implied, understood answer, “Nowhere around.” Job was not there when Jehovah laid the foundation of the earth and so is in no position to criticize the way God has ordered the world in which Job lives.

2. The passage says absolutely nothing about a plan of salvation, let alone the sons of God shouting for joy about a plan for them to become like God. What seems to have been the reason for the joyful shout was the laying of the foundation for the earth. John Hartley points out, “In an ancient community the laying of a foundation stone for a public building such as a temple was a high occasion and was commemorated by a festive ceremony.”[1] An example of this practice may be seen at the ceremony of the laying of the foundation for the rebuilding of the temple after the Babylonian Exile. At that ceremony, a group of priests played musical instruments and sang when the foundation was laid (Ezra 3:10-11).

3. What strikes some readers as odd, but should be noted here, is that Jehovah’s speeches to Job say nothing about the creation or formation of the human race. The animals that the speeches describe are all wild animals, untamed by human beings.[2] Thus, the context of Job 38:7 doesn’t even say anything about the creation of human beings or their purpose for being here.

It seems to me, then, that the LDS Church misinterprets Job 38:7. Not only does it not teach that human beings preexisted as spirit children of God in heaven, in context Job 38 is denying that human beings (such as Job) existed in heaven when God created the earth. Furthermore, the sons of God shouted for joy, not because they were going to be sent to the earth to become exalted beings, but because the earth was going to be the place where Jehovah, the God of creation, would manifest his glorious presence in the universe.

NOTES

[1] John E. Hartley, The Book of Job, NICOT (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1988), 495.

[2] J. Gerald Janzen, Job, Interpretation (Atlanta: John Knox Press, 1985), 229.

You are misinterpreting Job. The best way that I can answer your questions is to quote and give the right interpretation of the passages you have quoted. I will quote from the KJV:

Job 38:

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Here God is chastening Job for complaining against Him! Job had complained that he was innocent of any crime (which he was!), and that that God had punished him unjustly without him having done anything to deserve it. God’s answers is that Job is too ignorant to be in a position to criticise God’s actions. If Job had the knowledge that God does, then he would know that all of God’s actions have a valid reason behind it, which might appear to us to be unjust because we don’t have the knowledge and wisdom that God does to be able to see it from His point of view. The following questions that God puts to Job is designed to demonstrate to Job his ignorance compatred to the omniscient knowledge of God, which enables Him to make wise decisions the wisdom of which may not be obvious to us.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

The answers to that question is not “nowhere”! God is demonstrating to Job his ignorance of that knowledge (like his ignorance of all the other facts God mentions). Job doesn’t know where he was because he has temporarily lost his knowledge of what took place in the pre-existence. He was around, but he has lost his recollection of it. Thus your interpretation of this verse is badly flawed.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

What he is saying here is that those “morning stars” and “sons of God” rejoiced when they saw the earth being created. The question you want to answer for yourself is, why is it that those “Sons of God” rejoiced at the prospect of the creation of the earth.

[David Bokovoy]

consiglieri, on 09 February 2010 - 05:45 PM, said:

I agree with Mr. Mak on this, and would suggest this is one of the most frequently used proof-texts for an LDS belief that has nothing to do with the belief itself (i.e. Job's premortal existence).

I even mentioned this to my Sunday school class the other day, but I did follow it up with Mak's well taken point that this verse is not necessary to support the doctrine.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Wow, I'm not sure that I have ever heard Job 38:7 used as a proof-text for Job's premortal existence.   I have repeatedly encountered the passage used in the way it appears in the book Gospel Principles and in Ezra Taft Benson's sermon in reference to a general human premortal existence, and I for one do not believe that such usage is at all inappropriate.

Edited by David Bokovoy, 09 February 2010 - 08:17 PM.

[Rob Bowman]

Zakuska,

You wrote:

Zakuska, on 09 February 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

We read in Proverbs about the pre-incarnate Christ known as wisdom.

Prov 8
  22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
  23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
  24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
  25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
  26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
  27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
  28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
  29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
  30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
  31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Who were these "sons of men", in whom Wisdom rejoiced "daily" before the creation of old?

The text does not say that wisdom rejoiced with the sons of men before creation. In this passage "wisdom" says that she was there before any of God's works (v. 22), before the earth was formed (vv. 23-26), when God made the heavens and the earth (vv. 27-30), and rejoiced when God made the earth inhabited, especially delighting in human beings (v. 31). The passage has a chronological progression, corresponding in a poetic way to Genesis 1.

Now, wouldn't you agree with me that Job 38:4-7 does not teach that human beings preexisted as spirits in heaven and rejoiced to hear Heavenly Father's plan of salvation?

[Rob Bowman]

David,

You wrote:

David Bokovoy, on 09 February 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

Hello Rob,

Who do you believe the Sons of God were in Job 38?

Angels (created spirits).

[Rob Bowman]

Dan,

You wrote:

Quote

The verse is clearly taken out of context when it's used to reference Job's presence. The verse is hardly necessary, however, to support the Latter-day Saint doctrine of premortality.

I appreciate this much of a concession. Isn't it true, though, that Job 38:4 rather clearly assumes that Job was not present at creation?

You wrote:

Quote

Now, clearly this phrase "sons of God" is related to Job 1:6 and 2:1's "sons of God," Gen 6:2's "sons of God," Ps 29:1's "sons of God," Deut 32:8's "sons of God," and, most importantly, Psalm 82's "sons of Elyon." If this is incorrect, please let me know. Given what we know (and what I've tried to explain) about the historical context of this concept of God's offspring, was Jesus' application in John 10 of Psalm 82 correct?

Without conceding everything you claim to have shown with regard to the "sons of God" in these OT texts, I certainly maintain that Jesus' application in John 10 of Psalm 82 was correct.

[Rob Bowman]

Zerinus,

I appreciate your effort to correct my understanding of the book of Job.

With regard to Job 38:4, I'm afraid I cannot agree with you that the rhetorical question "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?" assumes the answer "You were there with me but have forgotten." If that were true, we would have expected God to say, "You were there when I laid the foundation of the earth, but you have forgotten." The link between Job's ignorance and the rhetorical question is clearly that Job was ignorant of creation because he wasn't there.

I offered an explanation in my opening post for why the sons of God shouted for joy when the earth was founded.

Thanks again.

zerinus, on 09 February 2010 - 06:08 PM, said:

You are misinterpreting Job. The best way that I can answer your questions is to quote and give the right interpretation of the passages you have quoted. I will quote from the KJV:

Job 38:

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Here God is chastening Job for complaining against Him! Job had complained that he was innocent of any crime (which he was!), and that that God had punished him unjustly without him having done anything to deserve it. God’s answers is that Job is too ignorant to be in a position to criticise God’s actions. If Job had the knowledge that God does, then he would know that all of God’s actions have a valid reason behind it, which might appear to us to be unjust because we don’t have the knowledge and wisdom that God does to be able to see it from His point of view. The following questions that God puts to Job is designed to demonstrate to Job his ignorance compatred to the omniscient knowledge of God, which enables Him to make wise decisions the wisdom of which may not be obvious to us.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

The answers to that question is not “nowhere”! God is demonstrating to Job his ignorance of that knowledge (like his ignorance of all the other facts God mentions). Job doesn’t know where he was because he has temporarily lost his knowledge of what took place in the pre-existence. He was around, but he has lost his recollection of it. Thus your interpretation of this verse is badly flawed.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

What he is saying here is that those “morning stars” and “sons of God” rejoiced when they saw the earth being created. The question you want to answer for yourself is, why is it that those “Sons of God” rejoiced at the prospect of the creation of the earth.

[Bernard Gui]

Rob Bowman, on 09 February 2010 - 10:10 PM, said:

Angels (created spirits).

Well, there it is.

Mormons happen to believe they were angels, too...
except we are they.

Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 09 February 2010 - 10:21 PM.

[Bernard Gui]

Rob Bowman, on 09 February 2010 - 03:59 PM, said:

Furthermore, the sons of God shouted for joy, not because they were going to be sent to the earth to become exalted beings, but because the earth was going to be the place where Jehovah, the God of creation, would manifest his glorious presence in the universe.

The earth occupies a somewhat piddly spot in the universe. In fact, there are innumerable
earths in the universe.   Another rock with air and water is something to shout about? Seems to me God had already
manifested his glorious presence when he created the whole thing. Now that would be something
to shout about!

On the other hand, I can imagine we, the sons of God, shouting for joy at the founding
of our very own earth by our loving Father, so he could bring to pass his purposes...
our eternal lives.

Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 09 February 2010 - 10:33 PM.

[BCSpace]

It's not regarding Job 38:7, but I've always considered Genesis 2:1 is the best Biblical evidence for the premortal existence of man (and everything else).  Lexically, a host of people (and everything else) was created before Adam was placed on the earth.  I think the Church should use it, but it doesn't as far as I can tell.

[Rob Bowman]

BC,

You wrote:

BCSpace, on 09 February 2010 - 10:31 PM, said:

It's not regarding Job 38:7, but I've always considered Genesis 2:1 is the best Biblical evidence for the premortal existence of man (and everything else).  Lexically, a host of people (and everything else) was created before Adam was placed on the earth.  I think the Church should use it, but it doesn't as far as I can tell.

Genesis 2:1 is referring to all of the living things that populated the heavens and the earth. This would include all of the birds of the sky, all of the fish and other sea animals, all of the land animals, and the first human beings. It might also have included the angels, though this isn't explicit in Genesis 1. Since God could (as Christians and Jews traditionally believe) have created numerous angels without ever intending that any of them become humans, I see no way for Genesis 2:1 to be evidence that humans had a premortal existence.

Furthermore, in context I would argue that Genesis clearly teaches that human beings' existence begins with the beginning of their physical lives on earth. I have to stop at this point, but perhaps that would be a good discussion for a separate thread.

[Rob Bowman]

Bernard,

I disagree with your statement about the earth; the earth is a very, very special place. In any case, God's plan was to manifest his presence on earth in a unique way through human beings, whom he was about to create in his image. This in no way implies that we were present when the earth was created. Again, Job 38:4 strongly counts against this idea.

Bernard Gui, on 09 February 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

The earth occupies a somewhat piddly spot in the universe. In fact, there are innumerable
earths in the universe.   Another rock with air and water is something to shout about? Seems to me God had already
manifested his glorious presence when he created the whole thing. Now that would be something
to shout about!

On the other hand, I can imagine we, the sons of God, shouting for joy at the founding
of our very own earth by our loving Father, so he could bring to pass his purposes...
our eternal lives.

Bernard

[ebeddoulos]

Rob Bowman, on 09 February 2010 - 10:18 PM, said:

I offered an explanation in my opening post for why the sons of God shouted for joy when the earth was founded.

  Well at least you are making progress.  You acknowledge that the sons of God existed and "shouted for joy when the earth was founded."  Now all you have to do is gain an understanding as to the identity of the sons of God.  Are you up for the challenge?  Maybe the scriptures can help you out:

I am sure you are aware that God created Adam.

Quote

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” (Genesis 1:27)

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7)

But are you aware of who is recorded in Luke 3:38 as the father of Adam?

Quote

“Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” (Luke 3:38)

The Bible teaches that like Adam, you and I are sons (or daughters) of God.

Quote

“Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.” (Hosea 1:10)

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13)

Those who are lead by the spirit are sons (or daughters) of God.

Quote

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:14)

Are you lead by the spirit?  Does not the spirit tell you that you are a son (or daughter) of God?

Quote

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” (Romans 8:16)

If you are a child of God, it was you who "shouted for joy when the earth was founded."

[Bernard Gui]

Rob Bowman, on 09 February 2010 - 10:45 PM, said:

I disagree with your statement about the earth; the earth is a very, very special place. In any case, God's plan was to manifest his presence on earth in a unique way through human beings, whom he was about to create in his image. This in no way implies that we were present when the earth was created. Again, Job 38:4 strongly counts against this idea.

Oh yes, the earth is very special...to us, for whom it was created. And there is much more in store
for it and for us.

Job 38:4 only counts against this idea
if one believes we are not the sons of God spoken of. I happen to believe we are those very angels.

I probably misunderstand you, but it seems to me your position is  that God was proving something when he
created the earth and man for the earth. Why would he need to do that? To whom was he showing his
power and presence?

Bernard

Edited by Bernard Gui, 09 February 2010 - 11:02 PM.