Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

The Last Mormon Freedom


Mortal Man

Recommended Posts

So what exactly are you advocating Makelan? We pull a Josiah and cleans the sanctuary?

Slit the throats of all those who don't toe the line and bare their testimonies like "REAL" Mormons do?

What ever happend to the 11th article of faith?

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

If one actually understood the context of the article of faith, and did not use it for empty rhetoric, they would not have brought it up. People do have the right and privlege to worship as their conscience dictates. But the venue does not mean catholics walking into an LDS temple to marry, nor does it mean that individuals have the right to do as they wish in sacrament meeting. It does mean however that if you desire, you may leave, create your own church and so as you will. Otherwise, humble yourself and get over your own image of self importance.

Parhaps you like Iron fisted Gastopo churchs. I for one do not.

Generally nutz's tend to use that argument when they decide they want to impose the will of a minority over the majority. So they compare everyone to the worst evil in the past century. If one wish's to call the Lord gestapo, because the Quorum of the Twelve have instituted rules that allow all to participate and create a closer understanding of what a testimony is versus some travelogue that is really tends to be just so much self indulgent clap trap.

Personal testimony is the foundation of our faith. It is the binding power that makes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unique in the lives of its members, as compared with all other religious denominations of the world. The doctrine of the Restoration is glorious in and of itself, but the thing that makes it powerful and imbues it with great meaning is the personal testimonies of Church members worldwide who accept the Restoration of the gospel and strive to live its teachings every day of their lives.

A testimony is a witness or confirmation of eternal truth impressed upon individual hearts and souls through the Holy Ghost, whose primary ministry is to testify of truth, particularly as it relates to the Father and the Son. When one receives a testimony of truth through this divinely appointed process, it immediately begins to have impact on that person

Link to comment

Personally when the 12 act like this whether Modern Day or of old it reminds me of Josiahs reforms.

Josiah misappropriated authority to vilify and kill non-Jerusalemite priests and close down temples not under his hegemony. He reinvented the law. Is this the zeal you're accusing the Twelve of propagating?

Paul resisted Peter to the Face when he and others in the Church were saying the Gentile Chritisians weren't Jewish enough for their tastes, Weren't Easting to the Jewish customs and what not. Its the same thing when Members make comments about the way other members choose to express themselves in Church.

Paul was an apostle, and he confronted another apostle. They had no authorities above them counseling them in a certain direction. In addition, taking advantage of fast and testimony meeting in order to air grievances about the bishopric and the members of the ward is hardly analogous to Paul confronting Peter about Judaizing influences.

This whole debate it silly.

I agree.

Link to comment

We have a gentleman in our ward who gets up every month or two and does just this.....and yet the tone of his voice, the way he looks at us, the tears in his eyes......it speaks volumes. He rarely tells anything of his personal experiences when he says these few lines and if he does, it is very impersonal, yet his testimony is really deeply intimate, more so that many other testimonies.

As for our ward, it seems we are doing really well these days. Aside from a few members who have some medical/mental issues we don't really get 'bad' testimonies. I am not sure any testimony is 'bad' anyway, but we only seem to have people over the age of 12 get up and if they are younger, they almost always can say their own and their parents don't even get up with them. We have a few people who get up every month, but they have good things to say. We are generally dominated by men getting up as opposed to women. I have to admit, I am enjoying F&T more now than I have ever before. Even more so, I can't remember why I use to be so worried about it.....

People who aren't in tune with the spirit will not feel the testimony of others. So they seek entertainment of a sort. Which is too bad. The best testimonies I have ever heard were given by missionaries struggling with their new language and coincidentally, keeping their testimony focused on the most important of things pertaining to God.

It appears some don't want that.

Link to comment

Josiah misappropriated authority to vilify and kill non-Jerusalemite priests and close down temples not under his hegemony. He reinvented the law. Is this the zeal you're accusing the Twelve of propagating?

I fully agree we should follow the twelves council. When the twelves council does not go against the Gospel of Love, Tolerance, AND fairness Christ preached.

Paul was an apostle, and he confronted another apostle. They had no authorities above them counseling them in a certain direction. In addition, taking advantage of fast and testimony meeting in order to air grievances about the bishopric and the members of the ward is hardly analogous to Paul confronting Peter about Judaizing influences.

And yet Paul did it right in the middle of the Ward Christmas dinner. How more "public" can you get than that?

PS. The Bishop of my ward has just as much "authority" as I an EQ teachers has. (he has more keys yes)

Link to comment

People who aren't in tune with the spirit will not feel the testimony of others. So they seek entertainment of a sort. Which is too bad.

My home ward has been trying to lovingly educate the ward members about what a testimony should include. Many people get up and list what they are thankful for, the Bishop has joked that these are a thanktimony not a testimony/

Link to comment

My home ward has been trying to lovingly educate the ward members about what a testimony should include. Many people get up and list what they are thankful for, the Bishop has joked that these are a thanktimony not a testimony/

Heres another thing this whole debate reminds me of.

Alma 31

14 Therefore, whosoever desired to worship must go forth and stand upon the top thereof, and stretch forth his hands towards heaven, and cry with a loud voice, saying:

15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.

16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.

18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

19 Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure.

20 For behold, every man did go forth and offer up these same prayers.

21 Now the place was called by them Rameumptom, which, being interpreted, is the holy stand.

Hmmm.... that sounds mighty familiar to all the Lists people are posting to what a Testimony "should" contain. Im being told what my testimony should be, its being dictated what I should say in my testimony. How did all this make Alma feel?

22 Now, from this stand they did offer up, every man, the selfsame prayer unto God, thanking their God that they were chosen of him, and that he did not lead them away after the tradition of their brethren, and that their hearts were not stolen away to believe in things to come, which they knew nothing about.

23 Now, after the people had all offered up thanks after this manner, they returned to their homes, never speaking of their God again until they had assembled themselves together again to the holy stand, to offer up thanks after their manner.

24 Now when Alma saw this his heart was grieved; for he saw that they were a wicked and a perverse people; yea, he saw that their hearts were set upon gold, and upon silver, and upon all manner of fine goods.

25 Yea, and he also saw that their hearts were lifted up unto great boasting, in their pride.

26 And he lifted up his voice to heaven, and cried, saying: O, how long, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that thy servants shall dwell here below in the flesh, to behold such gross wickedness among the children of men?

27 Behold, O God, they cry unto thee, and yet their hearts are swallowed up in their pride. Behold, O God, they cry unto thee with their mouths, while they are puffed up, even to greatness, with the vain things of the world.

28 Behold, O my God, their costly apparel, and their ringlets, and their bracelets, and their ornaments of gold, and all their precious things which they are ornamented with; and behold, their hearts are set upon them, and yet they cry unto thee and say

Link to comment

what this appears to be is just a request for rote recitation. A cyncial view of the above quote seems to beg "Where is the Rameumpton".

Can't ones "travelogue" lead to meeting at least a portion of the requirements. Can there be any deviation from the above text i.e. a story about the power of prayer, service from members of the ward, gratitude for life in general?

One has to be somewhat arrogant to believe that what they have experienced has never been experienced before, in effect little more than a recitation or what has already come before.

The point of testimony meetings is articulating the witness of the Holy Ghost to the truthfulness of the gospel, Christ, and sacred texts. Not telling a story.

Link to comment

The point of testimony meetings is articulating the witness of the Holy Ghost to the truthfulness of the gospel, Christ, and sacred texts. Not telling a story.

Hmmm.. Christ seemed to tell quite a few stories when he bore his testimony. unsure.gif

You sure you dare to tell him he's doing it wrong? <lightning Rod >

Link to comment

I fully agree we should follow the twelves council. When the twelves council does not go against the Gospel of Love, Tolerance, AND fairness Christ preached.

Sigh, and there we have it. I am sure you condemn and crucify Jehovah, while love and worship Jesus Christ. :P

And yet Paul did it right in the middle of the Ward Christmas dinner. How more "public" can you get than that?

PS. The Bishop of my ward has just as much "authority" as I an EQ teachers has. (he has more keys yes)

He has more authority, you both have priesthood power, but keys, determine authority. For instance do you have the same authority to marry someone in the temple as someone called to seal those in the temple? Of course you don't. You must be called by someone in authority to do so.

Link to comment

Hmmm.. Christ seemed to tell quite a few stories when he bore his testimony. unsure.gif

You sure you dare to tell him he's doing it wrong? <lightning Rod >

Sigh, Christ told stories and parables to teach. Gospel Doctrine class for instance is an excellent venue to share personal experiences. When it came to testimonies, Christ was amazingly brief when discussing Himself and who he was.

I tell you that your interpretation is amazingly wrong, that your knowledge is limited but otherwise you seem to be only slightly blind to the obvious.

Rhetoric, when you want to send the very best. :P

Link to comment

He has more authority, you both have priesthood power, but keys, determine authority. For instance do you have the same authority to marry someone in the temple as someone called to seal those in the temple?

Yes when these men Marry People they invoke the same Priesthood I hold to perform the sealing. They have been given Permission to exercise the particular key at the particular time.

Of course you don't. You must be called by someone in authority to do so.

Wrong see above.

Link to comment
The point of testimony meetings is articulating the witness of the Holy Ghost to the truthfulness of the gospel, Christ, and sacred texts. Not telling a story.

so rameumpton is it then.

how one "got" to their particular testimony - the story behind it - whether it be of service, life etc, is more inspiring to me than recitation of the same thing over and over and over. just imagine how boring and off putting it would be to hear the 15 - 25 people say the exact same thing.

i rather like hearing the "story" of the bishops wife who is upset about how much time being bishop takes her husband from the family and then something happens which helps the wife understand how important the role of bishop is.

however, i do not support using the meeting as open mic for airing grievances, or asteroids, unless it has a spiritual point.

Link to comment

I fully agree we should follow the twelves council. When the twelves council does not go against the Gospel of Love, Tolerance, AND fairness Christ preached.

Or, to be more precise, when the Twelve do not go against your opinion of what constitutes the gospel of love, tolerance, and fairness.

And yet Paul did it right in the middle of the Ward Christmas dinner. How more "public" can you get than that?

PS. The Bishop of my ward has just as much "authority" as I an EQ teachers has. (he has more keys yes)

No, he has the same amount of priesthood as you, but he has added authority with the keys. That's not even open for debate. He makes decisions for the ward as a whole. You do not.

Link to comment

Sigh, Christ told stories and parables to teach. Gospel Doctrine class for instance is an excellent venue to share personal experiences. When it came to testimonies, Christ was amazingly brief when discussing Himself and who he was.

And yet Testimony is Incouraged before during and after most lessons in Gospel Doctrine class. Im not advocating to get up and take the full hour to tell about how aunt suzy has seven kids and they went to Disney land and little joey got lost and he prayed and was found, in the least.

Link to comment

Yes when these men Marry People they invoke the same Priesthood I hold to perform the sealing. They have been given Permission to exercise the particular key at the particular time.

Wrong see above.

I am an adult. Do I have the authority to drive "any" car? No. I only have authority to drive the car I own, or lease, or given to me.

An adult has the power to fire a gun, but his authority to do so is limited to questions such as zoning laws, permits (permission) or otherwise.

You have not been given authority to marry anyone. Until you do, you cannot marry anyone. You may have the same power as someone who does have permission, but you do not have authority to use that power.

Link to comment

i rather like hearing the "story" of the bishops wife who is upset about how much time being bishop takes her husband from the family and then something happens which helps the wife understand how important the role of bishop is.

If the story is brief it is fine, bearing a testimony is not a talk, the main part should be the testimony. I have given my testimony many times trying to stick to the guidelines I don't think any two of them have been exactly the same.

Link to comment

Yes when these men Marry People they invoke the same Priesthood I hold to perform the sealing. They have been given Permission to exercise the particular key at the particular time.

That's called authority. You need to be more discrete about the battles you pick.

Link to comment

And yet Testimony is Incouraged before during and after most lessons in Gospel Doctrine class. Im not advocating to get up and take the full hour to tell about how aunt suzy has seven kids and they went to Disney land and little got lost and he prayed and was found, in the least.

Testimony is indeed encouraged in Sunday School, but that doesn't mean you can tell stories during fast and testimony meeting. The logic doesn't follow.

Link to comment

Or, to be more precise, when the Twelve do not go against your opinion of what constitutes the gospel of love, tolerance, and fairness.

And their "opinions" out weigh mine how? Do I not have just as much access to God as they do? Is he not the God of all? You're preaching a God who is a respector of Persons. Sorry Jeff.

No, he has the same amount of priesthood as you, but he has added authority with the keys. That's not even open for debate. He makes decisions for the ward as a whole. You do not.

What ever happend to the term... "By the Authority of the Melq Priesthood which we hold, we place..." It seems someone wasn't paying attention in Gospel Principles Class when Authority and Keys were explained.

Link to comment

That's called authority. You need to be more discrete about the battles you pick.

Thats called keys, Makelan.

Thank God we are studying Gospel Principles this year were Priesthood Authority and KEYS of the Priesthood are explained. Maybe you should listen a little better this time around.

Now this discussion is reminding me of Paul.

Heb. 5: 12

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Link to comment

so rameumpton is it then.

Atrocious false analogy. The Rameumptom was a recited prayer that denigrated other faiths. The bearing of testimonies is not at all related. The fact that they're supposed to follow the same format is no more like the Rameumptom than saying prayers should follow the same format.

how one "got" to their particular testimony - the story behind it - whether it be of service, life etc, is more inspiring to me than recitation of the same thing over and over and over. just imagine how boring and off putting it would be to hear the 15 - 25 people say the exact same thing.

And no one is advocating that everyone say the exact same thing. Short faith promoting stories are perfectly appropriate.

i rather like hearing the "story" of the bishops wife who is upset about how much time being bishop takes her husband from the family and then something happens which helps the wife understand how important the role of bishop is.

however, i do not support using the meeting as open mic for airing grievances, or asteroids, unless it has a spiritual point.

I can't imagine a scenario where airing grievances has a legitimate spiritual point.

Link to comment

I am an adult. Do I have the authority to drive "any" car? No. I only have authority to drive the car I own, or lease, or given to me.

An adult has the power to fire a gun, but his authority to do so is limited to questions such as zoning laws, permits (permission) or otherwise.

You have not been given authority to marry anyone. Until you do, you cannot marry anyone. You may have the same power as someone who does have permission, but you do not have authority to use that power.

What you are describing is "authorization" not Authority.

A police officer has the "authority" to search you premisis. He must recieve "authorization" from a Judge to do so.

Link to comment

Thats called keys, Makelan.

Thank God we are studying Gospel Principles this year were Priesthood Authority and KEYS of the Priesthood are explained. Maybe you should listen a little better this time around.

Now you're conflating priesthood authority and ward authority. Again, you've picked the wrong battle here.

Link to comment
Atrocious false analogy. The Rameumptom was a recited prayer that denigrated other faiths
"I know the Church is only true Church of Jesus Christ" not stated explicitly but, the message is still there "denigrate" other faiths, either way, sticking to a prescribe format is rameumptonish.
Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...