46 replies to this topic

[Anijen]

Helmuth, on 24 January 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:

The text can support a hemisherish geography. Ruling it out requires a lot of assumptions and extra-textual information. Just reading the book in a vacuum as it were, it's clear the area could have been very large.

I certainly haven't read it in a vacuum, in fact I have changed my mind on numerous occasions and the more I learn of Mesoamerica the more I can see it in the Book of Mormon. Yes the text can support almost any geography to fit into any model but that is because the text is spiritual and not meant to be a map.

What I have done is follow the likes of Poulson, Sorenson, Gardner, Wright and others and take into account the approximately 500 directionals that the text offers and then match those and find a a setting that will fit into the proper time, topography, polities, written language, quotes from church leaders etc and the one that simply fits the best after my studies is Mesoamerica.

If I were to find out tomorrow that it all happened in the great lakes area or Antarctica I would not lose a wink of sleep because in the end this is only a fun hobby but the important message is the testimony of Christ it offers. First and foremost it to me is a book of scripture and a sacred record of another testament of Christ. The "where" is a superfluous even trivial pursuit albeit one I enjoy.

[beastie]

Nomad, on 16 February 2009 - 02:05 PM, said:

Last of all, I believe you fail to appreciate how little the the things that "archaeologists claim to know" are even pertinent to the question of whether or not a relatively small society never more than a couple million people ever falling under the umbrella of what could be called a "Nephite") could have existed independent of the other polities that would have been contemporaneously present.

http://www.mormonapo...entry1208598980

Nomad, on 24 January 2010 - 10:02 AM, said:

As we have both noted in the past, beastie's scope of knowledge concerning Mesoamerica is strictly defined by and narrowly confined to those elements that she perceives provide her with a club with which to beat the Book of Mormon.  I don't expect that to change anytime soon; to see the day when her understanding of the broader panorama of ancient Mesoamerica expands beyond her current straitened perspective.  At least it is apparent that very little has changed since last I bothered to observe her commenting on these subjects.

One thing is clear to me: beastie is not truly interested in ancient Mesoamerica except as a means by which to assemble a few anti-Mormon talking points.  From my perspective, that is a pretty poor motivation, and one that can never result in authentic scholarship.

You are simply incorrect.   There is no way that I would have developed the personal library on Mesoamerican topics that I have if my sole interest in the topic was the BoM.  It is strange that you would presume to know enough about me to even make such a statement, frankly.  I also think it’s a statement far more likely to be made by someone who, himself, does not fully appreciate how fascinating ancient Mesoamerican culture truly was.  It is you whom I suspect have limited reading on the topic, particularly given your past assertion that a polity of a couple million would have been considered insignificant in ancient Mesoamerica.

Edited by beastie, 24 January 2010 - 06:04 PM.

[beastie]

Brant Gardner, on 24 January 2010 - 09:29 AM, said:

That is a strange question. The "advantage" of Mesoamerica isn't that there are some pretty ruins around, but that the geography, topography, hydrology, cultural trends, and historical trends (at the appropriate times) all fit with the text. All of those things happen to fit the Grijalva river valley during the bulk of Book of Mormon history. The know archaeology of that region doesn't have any sites comparable to places such as Tikal or the later Palenque.

As for Kaminaljuyu, it is a question of time periods, with only the period from about 550 BC to 200 or so BC being relevant. Kaminaljjuyu wasn't that important that early, and certainly was not comparable to the later polities you have discussed in the past.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on how well these items match ancient Mesoamerica.  I recall hearing such things as the river Grivalja flowing northward as if that pinpointed Mesoamerica, and yet the River Genessee in NY also flows northward.  I've also read Sorenson's reasonings for some of his assertions, and it's based on very vague statements in the BoM that likely could be interpreted in different ways than he chose.  

Kaminaljuyu was already a developed polity by 550 BC. In fact, by 700 BCE it had already construted a major irrigation canal, and by 500 BCE was already carving stelae.  The problem is all relative.  Was Kaminaljuyu a powerful polity in 550 BC, compared to other polities?  Yes.  Perhaps it pales on comparison to later polities, but that is irrelevant to whether or not it was comparatively a powerful polity in its specific time period and region.

[Sevenbak]

beastie, on 24 January 2010 - 08:03 AM, said:

It seems to me that your point was to remind me of my "less equal" status as a nonbeliever.  Apparently I don't even have the right to comment on zingers meant for other "more equal" folks.  

BTW, it was quite a good zinger.  You should be proud of it.  And I think you have every right to indulge in such a zinger, based on things that have been said on this board about folks who cling to beliefs such as yours.

The point was that it doesn't seem that you are in a position as a non believer in either Joseph Smith, or the Book of Mormon, or the Restored Gospel to make any such claims.

[Sevenbak]

Helmuth, on 24 January 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:

The text can support a hemispherish geography. Ruling it out requires a lot of assumptions and extra-textual information. Just reading the book in a vacuum as it were, it's clear the area could have been very large.

Well said.  For some of us, the text supports a Hemispheric geography quite nicely, even though it's primarily a spiritual record.

[beastie]

Sevenbak, on 24 January 2010 - 09:51 PM, said:

The point was that it doesn't seem that you are in a position as a non believer in either Joseph Smith, or the Book of Mormon, or the Restored Gospel to make any such claims.

One does not have to be a believer to recognize a zinger when one sees it, nor does one have to be a believer to figure out how the target group might react to the zinger. But I know how the game is played here.  Some posters are more equal than others.

[Helmuth]

Anijen, on 24 January 2010 - 01:48 PM, said:

I certainly haven't read it in a vacuum, in fact I have changed my mind on numerous occasions and the more I learn of Mesoamerica the more I can see it in the Book of Mormon. Yes the text can support almost any geography to fit into any model but that is because the text is spiritual and not meant to be a map.

I appreciate that and am happy to see someone agree with me. Some supporters of LGT have, at times, overstated their position, claiming one cannot possibly read the text carefully, paying attention to geographical clues, and belive it took place in more than a 200 mile radius area. I disagree, see here: http://www.mormonapo...ry-for-the-bom/