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merganzerman

Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

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simple: God's law has existed as long as sin has existed.

"Where no law is, there is no transgression." Romans 4:15

Therefore, God's law is "the law", and Moses Law contains "God's Law".

To say "the law" is only "Moses Law" is rediculous, but it provides a convenient explanation for LDS Christians...

Quit ignoring my posts on "works of the law" and making ridiculous claims like "provides a convenient explanation for LDS Christians."

Did you even know that "works of the law" was found in the DSS?

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Works are works.

No they aren't!

That arguement that "the law" equals only the "law of Moses" doesn't hold merit since the Law of Moses included the ten commandments, which is God's Law from the beginning until today.

EXACTLY!! The ten commandments were give "FROM THE BEGINNING" and preceded the Law of Moses!!!

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4

Notice that this is John and not Paul.

"Works of the law" therefore are what you refer to as "works of righteousness" . . .

You logic is flawed and your conclusion is in error.

Abraham was justified before man because of his works - not before God.

How do we know?

Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works (of the law of Moses), he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."

There I fixed it for you. Your premise is in error, your logic flawed and your conclusion is a bunch of dung.

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Well at least he called us "LDS Christians". :P

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Work are works? Huh. I see that taught in the scriptures. Also did Adam or Noah live the law of Moses before Moses recieved it? I don't think so.

Notice that the langauge that is used in Romans is different that what James uses. Paul never says that if we have faith and works that that doesn't justify us. James tells us that if we have faith with works then we are justified. IOW we are not justifed before God by works alone.

simple: God's law has existed as long as sin has existed.

"Where no law is, there is no transgression." Romans 4:15

Therefore, God's law is "the law", and Moses Law contains "God's Law".

To say "the law" is only "Moses Law" is rediculous, but it provides a convenient explanation for LDS Christians...

That isn't what that verse of scirpture means. It means that if a person does not have the law they are not condemend. In other words you cannot sin in ignorance.

Care to try again?

Thanks for acknowledging that we are Christans.

FYI I am not arguing anything about what the "law" means. I am just pointing out that "works are works" is not true and Adam and Noah did not live the law of Moses. The were preched the Gospel.

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Here is a clue for you "evangelical" anti-Mormons.

When Paul is talking about works, he most often is referring to the works OF THE LAW OF MOSES by which NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED!!!

When James is talking about works, he is referring to the works of righteousness.

It is really simple. Get it?

Are you suggesting things like honesty, not stealing, honoring your father and mother and church attendance are not "works of righteousness"?

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The same amount of faith it takes to enter the Celestial Kingdom. As for being "justified before men" that sounds a lot like what Jesus said here:Matthew 6:1-4) "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."

How does that fit in with being justified before men?

1 Peter 2:12 "Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us."

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Quit ignoring my posts on "works of the law" and making ridiculous claims like "provides a convenient explanation for LDS Christians."

It is their only recourse, because you PWND them!!

:P;):crazy:

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EXACTLY!! The ten commandments were give "FROM THE BEGINNING" and preceded the Law of Moses!!!

They also Post dated it in the new Covenant/Law.

Romans 13

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God

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In Hebrew we find the same concept. A treaty is an amanah, same root as faith!

Considering that Pistis and Fides were the Greek and Roman goddesses of trust and fidelity, that should probably tell us something about the meaning of the words. Fides didn't develop to mean "belief" until much later.

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1 Peter 2:12 "Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us."

Irrelevant. Nothing in there about being justified.

You might just have well posted this.

Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

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Are you suggesting things like honesty, not stealing, honoring your father and mother and church attendance are not "works of righteousness"?

No, but you seem to think that any work is filthy even done in faith.

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So then you are saying that Abrahams faith was made alive (justified) when he was going to do what the Lord had commanded him to do??

Yes, exactly, but only before man.

You see, the faith that saves is not our own faith.

We are saved by the "faith of Jesus Christ", and not our own.

For context, consider the very first verse in James chapter 2:

"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons."

Just think about it for a few minutes. I've got to run to a meeting.

Bye friends...

Additional verses to consider:

Faith of Jesus Christ saves - not our faith (which can die).

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They also Post dated it in the new Covenant/Law.

Romans 13

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God

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Look at Matthew 24:46-51 and 255:14-30.

This is what grace and faith are. Faith is defined as us being faithful, that is the root of neeman, in fact, it is the root of stewardship in Hebrew. grace is the talents h gave the servants. Those who had faith, that is, were faithful in DOING what he commanded them, were commended and rewarded. He that recieved grace but did nothing with it was destroyed. Pure and simple, faith and works are intertwined. Faith is doing the right works for the right reasons.

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No, but you seem to think that any work is filthy.

How do you interpret the word "all" in Is 64??? :P

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Welcome to our board. You will find this place a lot different than what you are used to over on Mark Cares blog.

Thank you for the kind welcome

You will have to treat us Mormons with respect (something that doesn't happen there).

CFR please. Thanks

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Irrelevant. Nothing in there about being justified.

You might just have well posted this.

Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

SOunds like you have covered your bases here.

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Daniel C. Peterson has argued quite effectively that, "with regard to the primacy of action over contemplation, of orthopraxy over orthodoxy, both Judaism and Islam have remained more faithful to their Semitic roots than has mainstream Christianity, though it shares those roots." He states, "It has often been noted that Hebrew thought is characteristically dynamic and active, while Greek thought tends to the static and the contemplative...One might remark, for example, that, as in the Semitic languages generally, almost all Hebrew nouns are derived from verbal roots. Thus it is action, rather than inaction, that seems to be fundamental in Semitic languages." When compared to the perspective of Latter-day Saints, it seems that "Mormonism is closer, in this regard, to the Semitic roots of Christianity than are most other branches of the Christian movement today." The reason being that "when we inquire whether a person is a "good Mormon," we generally have in mind such things as attendance at church and adherence to the Word of Wisdom. When that person comes to her bishop for a temple recommend interview, she is not invited to lay out her views on the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost for theological evaluation. Rather, by and large, she is asked whether she obeys the commandments and keeps her covenants. Being a good Latter-day Saint, while it certainly involves some basic doctrinal commitments (as does the temple recommend interview itself), is largely a matter of behavior." It appears that this ancient Semitic orthpraxy was later assimilated into the Greek philosophical worldview, where ideas and concepts triumphed over behavior and actions. This is why we see Christians today condemning others for not believing in the Trinity or the infallibility of the Bible, despite the fact that these individuals might in fact be good people.

Quotes from Peterson, "'What Has Athens to Do with Jerusalem?': Apostasy and Restoration in the Big Picture," FARMS Review: Volume - 12, Issue - 2, 2000

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Are you suggesting things like honesty, not stealing, honoring your father and mother and church attendance are not "works of righteousness"?

You need to pay attention.

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"We are saved by the "faith of Jesus Christ"

'Faithfulness' would be a better translation, since that is what the word means.

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How do you interpret the word "all" in Is 64??? :P

In light of verse 7. We went over this already. Works with out faith are just that, works. They can't save you by themself. Israel's works were filthy as they turned from the Lord in that they turned from their faith. They stopped calling on His name.

Faith by it self is dead.

Works by it self is just works and could be dubbed "filthy".

Faith with works is what makes faith alive to gain grace.

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Faith of Jesus Christ saves - not our faith (which can die).

Sounds to me you are saying that God isn't strong enough to keep our faith from dying.

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How do you interpret the word "all" in Is 64??? :P

I rpovided context, you ignored it. BTW where is that CFR you owe me.

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Oh where, oh where are the responses to my publications on grace, faith, and works of the law?

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Thank you for the kind welcome

CFR

The Mormon jesus is

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