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merganzerman

Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

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How much righteousness is required to enter the celestial kingdom?

According to Christ in the parable, we must visit the sick and afflicted, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and visit those in prison.

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The fact they were surprized (in Mt 7 & 25) leads me to believe they did in fact have faith in Christ.

I've already given examples of people like this who supposedy do "miracles" in the name of Jesus.

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Echo:

Without the Atonement of Jesus the Christ no amount of righteousness will get you into the Celestial Kingdom. With the atonement I will be like Him.

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I've already posted this once, but I'll post it again since our critics seem to ignore it. Here is the cultural context of both grace and faith, since "The New Testament was not written in a social vacuum." (Gail R. O

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Both groups were doing something. They even asked the savior "when saw we thee and did not...". As if they were going to lie to Christ's face. Yeah.

You're way off here Mola...

Yeah I am way off because you claimed "Both groups are doing something". Really, were is that found in the parable of the goats and the sheep? The goats were condemed soley because they were not doing the things the sheep were. The goats even called Jesus "Master". This shows they knew who he was.
They even asked the savior "when saw we thee and did not...".
That is just it, you don't even get the parable. The fact is that if you have done it not unto the lest of these you have not done it unto me. They Goats were questioning, I note in teh same manner as your, that the knew not when they had seen the Master.

I need to have works, but work becuase I have eternal life, not in order to one day obtain that life.

Wrong, that is why the goats were going to hell. The did not the things that the sheep had done. This is getting really sad.

The savior plainly told the rejected "I never knew you".

Think about it; how is this possible?

They never knew the savior because they never kept his commandments. If you love me keep my commandments. THe only way to know the savior is do to what he askes and live the kind of life he lived. You are making this really easy to prove my point. It is obvious that you are ignoring this parable.

The "will of the Father" is "beleive" and receive eternal life.

It is more than that. Even in Matthew 7:21 those that called him "Master" were saddened to learn that just saying "Lord Lord" was not enough.

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in order to be saved we must do the will of the Father. The other is that some did works of iniguity.

So if it is your contention that they all had faith, why then if they had faith, and that is all that is required for salvation, were they cast out? Something in your theology just isn't adding up. Which I agree that they had faith as they call Jesus "Master".

Per your last statement how do you justify "wouldn't the fact they had works demonstrate their faith in the savior?" how do you arrive at that conclusion.

You need to tell us how these people that the savior dubbed as "workers of iniquity" are not saved if they had faith and according to you and that is all that is required for salvation.

According to the Bible, what is "the will of the Father" for those whom the savior does not know?

Is this an answer? It doesn't look like it. Please answer my question.

here it is again for your convenience.

You need to tell us how these people that the savior dubbed as "workers of iniquity" are not saved if they had faith and according to you and that is all that is required for salvation.

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The Bible plainly says works + Faith = debt which is NOT eternal life.

Consider Romans 4:4

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

Faith is made void when mingled with works:

"For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void , and the promise made of none effect"

Romans 4:14

I trust Jesus not Paul.

Yeah faith is made void when mingled with works. I am so glad you speak for Paul. Talk about a mis-represnetaion.

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Romans 4:2-3 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about

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As for works of the law:

"Supposing, I thought, Paul meant

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Romans 4:2-3 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about

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James is speaking of Abraham being justified by works before men? unsure.gif

Context says other wise.

  1. James 1: 27 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

This verse sets the entire Context of James Chapter two as Abraham being Justified before God by his works!

This "justified before men" business is absolute nonsense:

"And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:11-12)

This was justification before God. Afterwards, the Lord says, "By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the bsand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." (Gen. 22:16-18)

Abraham's obedience was part of the covenant.

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James is speaking of Abraham being justified by works before men? unsure.gif

Context says other wise.

  1. James 1: 27 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

This verse sets the entire Context of James Chapter two as Abraham being Justified before God by his works!

Not to mention this follows quite nicely with the parable of the sheep and the goats. The goats are those that do not visit the fatherless and the widows in thier affliction and they also do not keep themsleves unspotted from the world.

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This "justified before men" business is absolute nonsense:

"And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:11-12)

This was justification before God.

God Abraham Isaac and the Angel where the only ones party to this trial of Abarhams faith. how exactly was this "glorfying by works before men"?

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Romans 4:2-3 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about

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It is rather obvious that Paul is referring to the "works" of the law of Moses and not works of righteousness.

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law (of Moses), but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law (of Moses): for by the works of the law (of Moses) shall no flesh be justified.

Works are works.

That arguement that "the law" equals only the "law of Moses" doesn't hold merit since the Law of Moses included the ten commandments, which is God's Law from the beginning until today. What Latter-Day Christian would feel he is not bound to obey those laws?

According to the Bible, anyone who sins breaks "the law".

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4

"Works of the law" therefore are what you refer to as "works of righteousness" and what God refers to as "filty rags".

How do we know?

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

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This "justified before men" business is absolute nonsense:

I was scratching my head over this one. It appears to be an invention to try and justify one theology to the scriptures as the scriptures contradict what is being taught by our friends.

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Works are works.

That arguement that "the law" equals only the "law of Moses" doesn't hold merit since the Law of Moses included the ten commandments, which is God's Law from the beginning until today. What Latter-Day Christian would feel he is not bound to obey those laws?

Work are works? Huh. I see that taught in the scriptures. Also did Adam or Noah live the law of Moses before Moses recieved it? I don't think so.

Abraham was justified before man because of his works - not before God.

How do we know?

Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."

Notice that the langauge that is used in Romans is different that what James uses. Paul never says that if we have faith and works that that doesn't justify us. James tells us that if we have faith with works then we are justified. IOW we are not justifed before God by works alone.

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<SNIP>

Welcome to our board. You will find this place a lot different than what you are used to over on Mark Cares blog. You will have to treat us Mormons with respect (something that doesn't happen there). You can't just make accusations, you may actually have to support them when called upon to do so. You also can't just make false statements about our theology (a common occurrence over there) and stifle responses by cutting off the ability to post.

So what brings you here?

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Here is a clue for you "evangelical" anti-Mormons.

When Paul is talking about works, he most often is referring to the works OF THE LAW OF MOSES by which NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED!!!

When James is talking about works, he is referring to the works of righteousness.

It is really simple. Get it?

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Abraham was justified before man because of his works - not before God.

How do we know?

Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."

Read James 1:27

Abarham was Justifed and undifield before God the father because of his faith AND works.

James 1:27

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

This verse sets the context for the entirety of James Chapter 2 as being performed before GOD and not men.

What "man" was present whan Abraham nearly slit the throught of his beloved son Isaac? That act of Rightiousness Justified Abraham before God the Father PLANE AND SIMPLE.

I can't beleive you are so blinded by your pet theology that you can't see this.

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Romans 4:2-3 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about

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Works are works.

That arguement that "the law" equals only the "law of Moses" doesn't hold merit since the Law of Moses included the ten commandments, which is God's Law from the beginning until today. What Latter-Day Christian would feel he is not bound to obey those laws?

I gave publications that explain "works of the law." You have, once again, ignored them.

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Work are works? Huh. I see that taught in the scriptures. Also did Adam or Noah live the law of Moses before Moses recieved it? I don't think so.

Notice that the langauge that is used in Romans is different that what James uses. Paul never says that if we have faith and works that that doesn't justify us. James tells us that if we have faith with works then we are justified. IOW we are not justifed before God by works alone.

simple: God's law has existed as long as sin has existed.

"Where no law is, there is no transgression." Romans 4:15

Therefore, God's law is "the law", and Moses Law contains "God's Law".

To say "the law" is only "Moses Law" is rediculous, but it provides a convenient explanation for LDS Christians...

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"It seems clear that pistis in Herodotus means 'treaty,' 'covenant made by exchange of assurances and oaths." (Jan Retso, Arabs in Antiquity: Their History from the Assyrians to the Umayyads, 2003)

David M. Hay found that pistis was used to mean "pledge," "reliability of a promise," "agreement," "credibility," "integrity," or "pledge of loving friendship." (Hay, "Pistis as "Ground of Faith" in Hellenized Judaism and Paul," JBL, 108/3, 1989)

In Hebrew we find the same concept. A treaty is an amanah, same root as faith!

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That chapter is about the proper motivation for doing works. Abraham was justified not because he intended on sacrificing Isaac, but because he had faith enough to DO what the Lord asked him, no matter how horrendous the deed appeared.

Please note that the justification in this instance doesn't come BEFORE the works.

So then you are saying that Abrahams faith was made alive (justified) when he was going to do what the Lord had commanded him to do??

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