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merganzerman

Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

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Read the rest of the chapter Zak. He's referring to attaining physical resurrection and bodily perfection.

In verses 15-16, he refers to the perfection he already has attained (eternal life):

"15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded : and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded , God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained , let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."

Again, he didn't have bodily, physical perfection. Last verse in the chapter (v.21) make this obvious:

"Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Exactly Imortaity... He's not perfect yet. because his "Salvation" was not completed.. hes in a Process, of being Saved. of which if he fails to keep taking forward steps he may not gain the prize. He may fall from Grace.

The entire book of Galatians blows the theory of OSAS and grace alone Salvation to smitherines by its very existance.

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This obviously is not talking about the bodily resurrection!!!

Let us "WALK" by the same rule? Why am I walking anywhere if My prefection and salvation is already complete? I can't WALK anywhere.

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But they did works in the name of Jesus Christ (Mt 7:21-22).

They had faith, and they had works.

Yet the savior rejected them.

Why?

Doing works in the name of Jesus is not the same thing as having faith in Christ.

Think about it, we all know of some corrup TV evangelisist who did all sorts of things 'in the name of Jesus' but it was all lip service, it was all 'whitewashed tombs full of old bones'.

The pharisees were sure they were sanctioned of God, but they were wrong. It should be obvious to anyone familiar with the N.T. that just because you do things in the name of God, doesn't mean you have faith in Him.

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First of all, when you use Scripture, it's important to interpret to the whole context of the chapter -- that would be the case in both Romans 2 and Matthew 19. I think you would agree with me that it's very easy to quote anybody, let alone Scripture, to make a point if it's taken out of context.

WOW!!! This coming from the masters of wresting scriptures.

In regards to Romans 2 -- you could certainly make a case that we are judged by works if you only focused on this passage.

And many more, several of which are actual quotes of JESUS!!

Need I provide them?

However, when you take in verses 1-16 of Romans 2 you can see that the point is about the principle of judgment. The central point of that chapter is that if anybody takes the position that good deeds will allow a person to enter eternal life, than it is possible -- if you are perfect.

Sorry, but NO it doesn't say you have to be perfect.

However, that's impossible, right?

All things are possible with God. Have you heard of that scripture? Check out the context if you like.

In Matthew 19 -- verses 16-29, Jesus is talking to a rich young ruler who inquires to Jesus about what he must do to receive eternal life. The young ruler has told him that he has been faithful in following all of the commandments. What does he still have to do? Jesus replies in verse 21 -- "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and though shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

So was Jesus just blowing smoke here or was he serious? Could the young man disobey Jesus in this very specific and personal commandment and be saved or does he just need to give lip service to a belief in Jesus?

Knowing that he couldn't sell everything he had, the rich young ruler went away very sad.

WHAT? What exactly prevented him from selling all he had? Was it not his?

He couldn't be perfect!
A false conclusion based on a false premise.

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Jesus then tells him its easier for a camel to go through an eye of the needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
For a camel to go through the eye of the needle required it to be unloaded from its burden and crawl on its knees. Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.
The disciples were bewildered and asked, "Who then can be saved?" (v. 25) And we come to the central point of this chapter when Jesus says, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

EXACTLY!!! WITH GOD all things are possible. Without God, we can't do it.

It's impossible for us to be perfect.

Noah was perfect.

Gen. 6:9

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Doing works in the name of Jesus is not the same thing as having faith in Christ.

Think about it, we all know of some corrup TV evangelisist who did all sorts of things 'in the name of Jesus' but it was all lip service, it was all 'whitewashed tombs full of old bones'.

The pharisees were sure they were sanctioned of God, but they were wrong. It should be obvious to anyone familiar with the N.T. that just because you do things in the name of God, doesn't mean you have faith in Him.

With all due respect to your position, I just don't understand why you view these people as having no faith in Christ - even though they said "in thy name". The fact they were surprized (in Mt 7 & 25) leads me to believe they did in fact have faith in Christ.

Furthermore, per "faith without works" arguement, wouldn't the fact they had works demonstrate their faith in the savior?

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Do you not see the parable of the sheep and goats in Mt 25 describes the same judgement day event as described in Mt 7:21-23?

The same? Surley you jest. In one example we see that one group worked iniquity and claimed authority they did not have. In the other group we see that the Goats failed to do good works. That is what separtes the sheep from the Goats. There will be a juddgment but it will be more than just "I confessed Jesus and accpeted him into my heart and I trust him 100%". If you fail keep the commandments of Jesus you will have no reward.

Clearly, the rejected of the savior were doing works in the name of Jesus Christ.

They reject Jesus? That is why they called him "Master" in both examples. Both sets of scripture verse tells us that we need to "do the will of the Father" For we need to do more than just say "Lord Lord" and believe 100%. We need to have works.

Christ did not know them because they did not have His eternal life in them.

That is not what the verse of scriptures say. Christ said in one verse of scripture that they "were workers of iniguity", in the sheep and the goats the goats were condemmed solely because they did not do any works. Those works were feeding the hungry, clothing the naked visiting the sick and afflicted.

Receiving eternal life IS the will of the Father. Those who receive HIS life, HIS body, HIS flesh, HIS water, HIS bread are those whom Christ knows. They meet the Father's demand of sinless perfection.

I agree that "receiving eternal life is the will of the Father". How do we recieve eternal life? How we recieve it is also part of "the will of the Father" And that included doing those things that the sheep did.

There is no other way, friends. ALL of your best efforts are, in reality, just filthy rags - even though you do them "in the name of Jesus Christ".

I disagree that all of our works are filthy rags. You have taken Isaiah out of context. If that were true then Jesus truley wouldn't require them of us. But he does.

You MUST have HIS eternal life in you, or you will never be known of the savior.

I agree, what is the condition for eternal life? Why are the Goats, goats? Because they did not meet the condition for salvation which includes: Those works were feeding the hungry, clothing the naked visiting the sick and afflicted visiting those in prison.

Consider the day I personally met Jesus Christ. The day He became part of me, and I Him:

"Behold , I stand at the door, and knock : if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20

That is right, he is at the door, we just have to let him in, which is an action or a work. Opening the door can never bequated to a mer belief.

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With all due respect to your position, I just don't understand why you view these people as having no faith in Christ - even though they said "in thy name". The fact they were surprized (in Mt 7 & 25) leads me to believe they did in fact have faith in Christ.

Non-Sequiter. They professed Christ with their Lips but their hearts were far from him.

Isa. 29: 13 13

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With all due respect to your position, I just don't understand why you view these people as having no faith in Christ - even though they said "in thy name". The fact they were surprized (in Mt 7 & 25) leads me to believe they did in fact have faith in Christ.

Furthermore, per "faith without works" arguement, wouldn't the fact they had works demonstrate their faith in the savior?

Oh boy. The scripture verses tells us 2 things. One is that in order to be saved we must do the will of the Father. The other is that some did works of iniguity.

So if it is your contention that they all had faith, why then if they had faith, and that is all that is required for salvation, were they cast out? Something in your theology just isn't adding up. Which I agree that they had faith as they call Jesus "Master".

Per your last statement how do you justify "wouldn't the fact they had works demonstrate their faith in the savior?" how do you arive at that conclusion.

You need to tell us how these people that the savior dubbed as "workers of iniquity" are not saved if they had faith and according to you and that is all that is required for salvation.

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Non-Sequiter. They professed Christ with their Lips but their hearts were far from him.

Isa. 29: 13 13

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High fives to Mola and Zak!!

:P;):crazy:

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If all one must do is believe, if all of our good works and keeping of the commandments are "filthy rags" then how does one interpret the following:

(1 Corinthians 9:24-27) "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
What is Paul talking about? How do we "run to obtain an incorruptible crown?" If that does not mean you must DO and not just "believe" with no effort to live a Christlike life, then why does Paul say he would become a "castaway" if he did not "so run"? Belief is the beginning of faith, but if repentance (meaning change or reformation of life) does not follow faith then faith is vain, or as James states is DEAD, being "alone." The reason this topic must be hashed and rehashed is that it is pleasing to a carnal mind that we "don't have to keep the commandments to be saved." That was the argument of Lucifer in the beginning, why take away agency to be saved? Because if there is no agency then there cannot be any sin or righteousness. It lessens mankind in my estimation and makes of all those claiming to be "born of God" divine puppets. What good would that do? Where is the test of faith it God "takes control" and any good thing we do is controlled by the divine puppet-master? This life is designed for us to develop faith and through that development to overcome sin, to replace unrighteous desires with righteous ones. To become one with God and thus His well becomes our will. It is a step by step process that is not altogether comprehended in this life. It is a plan by which we will become like Him through Christ:
(Philippians 2:5-16) "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."
How can Paul have labored in vain, unless it was because some would not endure to the end in faith, which faith brings forth righteous works. Without these righteous works then their faith is vain and accomplishes nothing, hence no salvation or exaltation.

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If all one must do is believe, if all of our good works and keeping of the commandments are "filthy rags" then how does one interpret the following:What is Paul talking about? How do we "run to obtain an incorruptible crown?" If that does not mean you must DO and not just "believe" with no effort to live a Christlike life, then why does Paul say he would become a "castaway" if he did not "so run"? Belief is the beginning of faith, but if repentance (meaning change or reformation of life) does not follow faith then faith is vain, or as James states is DEAD, being "alone." The reason this topic must be hashed and rehashed is that it is pleasing to a carnal mind that we "don't have to keep the commandments to be saved." That was the argument of Lucifer in the beginning, why take away agency to be saved? Because if there is no agency then there cannot be any sin or righteousness. It lessens mankind in my estimation and makes of all those claiming to be "born of God" divine puppets. What good would that do? Where is the test of faith it God "takes control" and any good thing we do is controlled by the divine puppet-master? This life is designed for us to develop faith and through that development to overcome sin, to replace unrighteous desires with righteous ones. To become one with God and thus His well becomes our will. It is a step by step process that is not altogether comprehended in this life. It is a plan by which we will become like Him through Christ:How can Paul have labored in vain, unless it was because some would not endure to the end in faith, which faith brings forth righteous works. Without these righteous works then their faith is vain and accomplishes nothing, hence no salvation or exaltation.

Great points! Paul being "castway" also throughs OSAS and TULIP under the Bus.

Agency is the all Important key to understand this whole debate. If Agency is taken out of the equation and Salvation is totally left in the hands of God. Then its Gods fault and active doing when some one fails to be saved. It also eliminates the need for the Gospel to be preached at all because no amount of preaching would change the predetermined outcome of who is and is not saved. It turns God into a tiranical monster, a respector of a certian chosen few, and makes him powertless and unjust.

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With all due respect to your position, I just don't understand why you view these people as having no faith in Christ - even though they said "in thy name". The fact they were surprized (in Mt 7 & 25) leads me to believe they did in fact have faith in Christ.

Furthermore, per "faith without works" arguement, wouldn't the fact they had works demonstrate their faith in the savior?

Zak already answered your questions.

Do you really believe that if someone has works it proves they have faith? Wouldn't that mean that hypocrisy doesn't really exist?

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The same? Surley you jest. In one example we see that one group worked iniquity and claimed authority they did not have. In the other group we see that the Goats failed to do good works. That is what separtes the sheep from the Goats. There will be a juddgment but it will be more than just "I confessed Jesus and accpeted him into my heart and I trust him 100%". If you fail keep the commandments of Jesus you will have no reward.

Both groups were doing something. They even asked the savior "when saw we thee and did not...". As if they were going to lie to Christ's face. Yeah.

You're way off here Mola...

They reject Jesus? That is why they called him "Master" in both examples. Both sets of scripture verse tells us that we need to "do the will of the Father" For we need to do more than just say "Lord Lord" and believe 100%. We need to have works.

I need to have works, but work becuase I have eternal life, not in order to one day obtain that life.

That is not what the verse of scriptures say. Christ said in one verse of scripture that they "were workers of iniguity", in the sheep and the goats the goats were condemmed solely because they did not do any works. Those works were feeding the hungry, clothing the naked visiting the sick and afflicted.

The savior plainly told the rejected "I never knew you".

Think about it; how is this possible?

I agree that "receiving eternal life is the will of the Father". How do we recieve eternal life? How we recieve it is also part of "the will of the Father" And that included doing those things that the sheep did.

The "will of the Father" is "beleive" and receive eternal life.

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Oh boy. The scripture verses tells us 2 things. One is that in order to be saved we must do the will of the Father. The other is that some did works of iniguity.

So if it is your contention that they all had faith, why then if they had faith, and that is all that is required for salvation, were they cast out? Something in your theology just isn't adding up. Which I agree that they had faith as they call Jesus "Master".

Per your last statement how do you justify "wouldn't the fact they had works demonstrate their faith in the savior?" how do you arive at that conclusion.

You need to tell us how these people that the savior dubbed as "workers of iniquity" are not saved if they had faith and according to you and that is all that is required for salvation.

According to the Bible, what is "the will of the Father" for those whom the savior does not know?

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If all one must do is believe, if all of our good works and keeping of the commandments are "filthy rags" then how does one interpret the following:What is Paul talking about? How do we "run to obtain an incorruptible crown?" If that does not mean you must DO and not just "believe" with no effort to live a Christlike life, then why does Paul say he would become a "castaway" if he did not "so run"? Belief is the beginning of faith, but if repentance (meaning change or reformation of life) does not follow faith then faith is vain, or as James states is DEAD, being "alone." The reason this topic must be hashed and rehashed is that it is pleasing to a carnal mind that we "don't have to keep the commandments to be saved." That was the argument of Lucifer in the beginning, why take away agency to be saved? Because if there is no agency then there cannot be any sin or righteousness. It lessens mankind in my estimation and makes of all those claiming to be "born of God" divine puppets. What good would that do? Where is the test of faith it God "takes control" and any good thing we do is controlled by the divine puppet-master? This life is designed for us to develop faith and through that development to overcome sin, to replace unrighteous desires with righteous ones. To become one with God and thus His well becomes our will. It is a step by step process that is not altogether comprehended in this life. It is a plan by which we will become like Him through Christ:How can Paul have labored in vain, unless it was because some would not endure to the end in faith, which faith brings forth righteous works. Without these righteous works then their faith is vain and accomplishes nothing, hence no salvation or exaltation.

The Bible plainly says works + Faith = debt which is NOT eternal life.

Consider Romans 4:4

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

Faith is made void when mingled with works:

"For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void , and the promise made of none effect"

Romans 4:14

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Both groups were doing something. They even asked the savior "when saw we thee and did not...". As if they were going to lie to Christ's face. Yeah.

Being slothful and wicked, they were making excuses why they hadn't done good works, the lack of which caused their condemnation. It is really simple and I am surprised that you don't get it.

You're way off here Mola...

You are the one that is way off.

I need to have works, but work becuase I have eternal life, not in order to one day obtain that life.

You don't have eternal life. Eternal life only comes AFTER DEATH. You are still mortal, therefore you don't have eternal life. This is really simple, do you get it?

The savior plainly told the rejected "I never knew you".
He never knew them because they hadn't followed Him. They were not a disciple. It is really simple.

The "will of the Father" is "beleive" and receive eternal life.

Can you REALLY believe in Jesus without believing what HE taught? We are talking JESUS here, not your misinterpreted words of Paul.

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According to the Bible, what is "the will of the Father" for those whom the savior does not know?

Did a quick search for "will of the Father" and only found this.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

:P

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The Bible plainly says works + Faith = debt which is NOT eternal life.

Consider Romans 4:4

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

Faith is made void when mingled with works:

"For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void , and the promise made of none effect"

Romans 4:14

It is rather obvious that Paul is referring to the "works" of the law of Moses and not works of righteousness.

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law (of Moses), but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law (of Moses): for by the works of the law (of Moses) shall no flesh be justified.

How do we know?

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

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Isaiah 64 is about people repenting after rejecting the Lord.

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In Isaiah, did Christ know these people or not?

You mean, like He would know a disciple?

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The Bible plainly says works + Faith = debt which is NOT eternal life.

Consider Romans 4:4

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

Faith is made void when mingled with works:

"For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void , and the promise made of none effect"

Romans 4:14

I realize it does place you (who was formerly LDS... or so you present yourself) in a rather difficult position. Romans 4:4 when viewed in context, was Paul trying to explain how the Law of Moses which was embodied in circumcision, was fulfilled and thus dead works and those who were urging it as an ordinance of the Gospel were in error. Unfortunately for those Jews who clung to the Law of Moses, they were basically rejecting the atonement of Christ by somehow insisting that they could be "saved" by their good works, without the atonement of Christ. He was not saying that ordinances of the Gospel such as baptism and righteous living could be ignored, he was trying to prevent the Church from being polluted with the false doctrines of the Jews.

If you wish to exchange dueling quotes I can do so:

(James 2:14-26) "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
This is the most direct statement in the Bible about faith and works being needed to justify us and to save us. The false notion that we can be saved by "faith alone... without living a Christlike life" is a "false Christ" and is not what the Bible teaches, if you think so then even Paul contradicts himself and others of the apostles dispute this erroneous notion of "keeping the commandments is not needed for salvation." Our obedience to Christ is how we express our faith in real ways, thus making us saved by our living faith in Christ which is what James is talking about.

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It is rather obvious that Paul is referring to the "works" of the law of Moses and not works of righteousness.

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law (of Moses), but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law (of Moses): for by the works of the law (of Moses) shall no flesh be justified.

How do we know?

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

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