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merganzerman

Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

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I think it's the difference between justification and sanctification and the difference in how lds Christians and non-lds Christians view both processes.

LDS believe that justification (being pronounced 'just' in the sight of God) happens the moment one enters the saving covenant with Christ but that sanctification (the process of becoming holy) takes time and requires that one be actively desiring to follow Christ in all things for their whole lives.

LDS believe that gaining eternal life invovles both justification AND sanctification thus, our belief that faith AND works are necessary to gain eternal life.

Great observations Bluebell; it's refreshing to find someone who actually understands LDS theology on this board!

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Interesting interpretation.

Do you consider your home a "gift" from the bank then, as long as you are "faithful and obedient" to make the payment every month?

Likewise, a reward is the result of worthy behavior, not a gift.

Those who have eternal life are those who have met God's requirement to keep the commandment of sinless perfection.

Because I give my Kid a car at age 16 for getting Good grades does not make it any less a "gift".

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And thus if you don't attain it, it is 100% Gods Fault.

Don't you see how this way of thinking is flawed?

No, if you do not have eternal life, it is 100% your own fault for not believing the truth.

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If your interpretation were correct, why are the

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No, if you do not have eternal life, it is 100% your own fault for not believing the truth.

You just contradicted your self. You have to DO something.

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Because I give my Kid a car at age 16 for getting Good grades does not make it any less a "gift".

Here are the definitions for "Gift" and "Reward":

Gift - "Something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned"

Reward - "Something given or received in return or recompense for service, merit, hardship, etc."

Which one best fits "a car [given] at age 16 for getting Good grades"?

Not rocket science here folks...

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If your interpretation were correct, why are the

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You just contradicted your self. You have to DO something.

If "belief" is "Doing something", why does the Bible contrast "belief" with "works" in Romans 4?

" 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

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Interesting interpretation.

Not an interpretation, but a statement of fact.

Do you consider your home a "gift" from the bank then, as long as you are "faithful and obedient" to make the payment every month?

No! The problem you have with this analogy is the fact that I CAN earn a home. I have the capability to do so. Eternal life on the other hand is beyond my ability to earn. It can only be received as a gift.

Likewise, a reward is the result of worthy behavior, not a gift.

And that is a false dichotomy!

Those who have eternal life are those who have met God's requirements to keep the commandment of sinless perfection.

Speaking for God now are you?

His promise is sure. If we keep His commandments and endure to the end, He will GIVE us eternal life. It is still a gift/grace.

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Here are the definitions for "Gift" and "Reward":

Gift - "Something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned"

Reward - "Something given or received in return or recompense for service, merit, hardship, etc."

Which one best fits "a car [given] at age 16 for getting Good grades"?

Not rocket science here folks...

What you have just described is the modern day heresy of Cheep grace, and makes a mokery of everything Paul actually taught.

Philip 2

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Where does Paul teach to sit back and quit striving to be good? Where does he say fight against God and don't allow him to work through you, cuz if you do your not saved?

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If you read that chapter from the begining the author is not stating that one must not work, but that our works ought to be driven by faith, not like a hired labourer who works only for a reward.

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If "belief" is "Doing something", why does the Bible contrast "belief" with "works" in Romans 4?

" 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

The biger question is why does Paul speicificly say "Beleif" is a work? And Salvation comes from MOVING ones lips?

Romans 10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Yet again showing salvation is something You have to DO.

If grace is truely grace alone. There can be no "IFs" and or Butts attached to the equation. You're either saved or you are not and no matter how many times you confess with the lips it matters not. because God already did it all and if youre not "in" it was his fault because he wasn't strong or convincing enough to make you beleive.

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If "belief" is "Doing something", why does the Bible contrast "belief" with "works" in Romans 4?

" 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

In a way that must be consistent with Rom 2:6-11.

6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Of course, if you understood when Paul is referring to that the works of the law of Moses and when he isn't, you would be in a much better position to understand.

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Yes! This is exactly it! Works are the result of salvation, not in order to one day obtain.

I don't find any biblical verses that tell us that "Jesus takes over our lives and makes us do good works once we are saved".

This places eternal life 100% upon His works, not my own, and allows eternal life to be a gift and not the reward of worthy behavior.

I don't find any verse of scripture that teach that it is 100% Jesus responisiblity to save us. I take it you are not very familiar with the parable of the sheep and the goats?

If your interpretation were correct, why are the

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The sheep are not surprised to learn that they have been doing something, they are suprised to learn that they gave the Saviour food and drink, welcomed him in to their homes, provided him with clothes and visited him when he was sick or in prison.

They were surprised probably because they had never met him. It is the target of their good works that is the surprise, not the good works themselves.

Good points, but you didn't eplain why the "goats" didn't make it.

This same group of "goats" is seen as those whom the savior rejected in Matthew 7:

"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Clearly, they were doing mighty works in the name of Jesus Christ.

So how do you explain their being left out?

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So how do you explain their being left out?

They were left out because works without faith is dead.

Just like faith without works is dead, being alone.

Faith AND works are necessary for salvation.

:P

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I'm surprised you want me to bring up why they were cast out, which is because they didn't do what the sheep were doing.

Of course, if we follow the evangelical reasoning then it is actually Christ's fault because he didn't do their good works for them after saving them.

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ye that work iniquity

That is the key phrase. They were cast out because of the kind of works they had done, not because they had done works.

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Are prophesying and casting out devils considered iniquituous?

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No, if you do not have eternal life, it is 100% your own fault for not believing the truth.

And if you do have eternal life it is 100% your fault. See the way is there for us to obtain it. There are condition to salvation. It is not free. Meaning that not all will recieve it.

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Good points, but you didn't eplain why the "goats" didn't make it.

This same group of "goats" is seen as those whom the savior rejected in Matthew 7:

"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Clearly, they were doing mighty works in the name of Jesus Christ.

So how do you explain their being left out?

Acutally from the parable of the sheep and the goats it is evident that they did not any works. When are you gonna get it? The parable is obvious that works are the only thing that separated the sheep from teh goats.

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Grace has been identified by many scholars to be a reciprocal system (often the client-patron system, though this specific system has met some criticism):

"People in the United States and northern Europe may be culturally conditioned to find the concept of patronage distasteful at first and not at all a suitable metaphor for talking about God

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Good points, but you didn't eplain why the "goats" didn't make it.

This same group of "goats" is seen as those whom the savior rejected in Matthew 7:

"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Clearly, they were doing mighty works in the name of Jesus Christ.

So how do you explain their being left out?

The next few verses answers your question:

24

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Good points, but you didn't eplain why the "goats" didn't make it.

They didn't do the good works!! Get it?

This same group of "goats" is seen as those whom the savior rejected in Matthew 7:

Obviously NOT!! The goats didn't do the good works. Those of Matt 7: claimed authority that they didn't have and then to be seen of men they did works to glorify themselves and not God.

"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Clearly, they were doing mighty works in the name of Jesus Christ.

So how do you explain their being left out?

Because they didn't have authority to act in the name of Jesus. That is why Jesus said "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

He doesn't like people claiming authority they don't have and then using "it" for the glory of men.

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It should be pointed out that in Matt. 7, the "wonderful works" are not necessarily "good works." NET translates it "powerful deeds," while the NRSV translates it "deeds or power." Others like the NASB and NIV translate it "miracles." It seems to reference what comes off as miraculous performances.

It calls to my mind the magicians of Pharaoh's court.

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