Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

They didn't do the good works!! Get it?

Obviously NOT!! The goats didn't do the good works. Those of Matt 7: claimed authority that they didn't have and then to be seen of men they did works to glorify themselves and not God.

"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Because they didn't have authority to act in the name of Jesus. That is why Jesus said "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

He doesn't like people claiming authority they don't have and then using "it" for the glory of men.

Not only that, but they were doing the wrong kind of works.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Here are the definitions for "Gift" and "Reward":

Gift - "Something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned"

Reward - "Something given or received in return or recompense for service, merit, hardship, etc."

Which one best fits "a car [given] at age 16 for getting Good grades"?

Not rocket science here folks...

Since the teen had no way of "earing" the car on his own it would be conisdered a gift as there was nothing he could do on his one efforts to gain the car. Got it?

[Vance]

<SNIP>

Excellent!

[Zakuska]

It calls to my mind the magicians of Pharaoh's court.

That it does!

[WalkerW]

Excellent!

<bows> Thank you, sir.

I'm finding that a large number of New Testament scholars understand grace and faith in this fashion. Granted, some are critical of the specified client-patronage system (most recently Erlend D. MacGillivray, "Re-evaluating Patronage and Reciprocity in Antiquity and New Testament Studies," JGRChJ 6 (2009) 37-81. However, the same issue features an article on the client-parton relation: Mark A. Jennings, "Patronage and Rebuke in Paul's Persuasion in 2 Corinthians 8," JGRChJ 6 (2009) 107-27), but still recognize it as a reciprocal system.

[Vance]

<bows> Thank you, sir.

I'm finding that a large number of New Testament scholars understand grace and faith in this fashion. Granted, some are critical of the specified client-patronage system (most recently Erlend D. MacGillivray, "Re-evaluating Patronage and Reciprocity in Antiquity and New Testament Studies," JGRChJ 6 (2009) 37-81. However, the same issue features an article on the client-parton relation: Mark A. Jennings, "Patronage and Rebuke in Paul's Persuasion in 2 Corinthians 8," JGRChJ 6 (2009) 107-27), but still recognize it as a reciprocal system.

I wonder if that is why most "EV"s (Cheap Grace folks) always seem to condemn scholars as being too "liberal".

[merganzerman]

RE: 1) Would you consider Repentance a "work"?

I don't think so. It's more of a condition of the heart recognizing that there is no way I can be perfect or righteous based on my own efforts. Is realization a work? However, I happen to believe that only the Word of God can cause that condition of repentance or to "change". So, to take credit for repentance is taking credit away from God.

[merganzerman]

merganzerman;

1. Mormons are Christian.

2. No one works their way into heaven.

3. We will be judged by our works.

Woops -- I'll try that again.

1. Mormons are not Christian.

2. No one works theri way into heaven.

3. We will be judged by our works. For those who are not perfect based on their works, they will be cast into outer darkness. For those who place their trust in Jesus Christ as their substitute, will be judged as fully righteous, perfect and worthy of heaven.

[thesometimesaint]

merganzerman:

1. Wow unto the liar for he shall thrust down in to hell.

2. Then we agree no one works their way into heaven.

3. There is only one who was perfect and you aren't him. We are all totally dependent on the Atonement of Jesus the Christ.

[Vance]

1. Mormons are not Christian.

Oh please!!!

Matt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[volgadon]

Honestly, protestants aren't Christians either. Go ask the Russian Orthodox, plus they were around a lot before you guys, Merganzerman.

[merganzerman]

Thanks!

However, I suspect that it gives the impression that I am meaner and ornerier than I really am.

Eternal life is and has always been a gift. It is a gift that is given to the faithful and obedient.

As Paul says.

Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God

Those verses are plain and clear.

And these words of Jesus are also plain and clear.

Matt. 19:17 . . . if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Hi: May I offer a few comments regarding the verses you selected. First of all, when you use Scripture, it's important to interpret to the whole context of the chapter -- that would be the case in both Romans 2 and Matthew 19. I think you would agree with me that it's very easy to quote anybody, let alone Scripture, to make a point if it's taken out of context.

In regards to Romans 2 -- you could certainly make a case that we are judged by works if you only focused on this passage. However, when you take in verses 1-16 of Romans 2 you can see that the point is about the principle of judgment. The central point of that chapter is that if anybody takes the position that good deeds will allow a person to enter eternal life, than it is possible -- if you are perfect. However, that's impossible, right? Yet, if it was possible for us to be perfect, than GOd would judge according to what he has done.

In Matthew 19 -- verses 16-29, Jesus is talking to a rich young ruler who inquires to Jesus about what he must do to receive eternal life. The young ruler has told him that he has been faithful in following all of the commandments. What does he still have to do? Jesus replies in verse 21 -- "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and though shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Knowing that he couldn't sell everything he had, the rich young ruler went away very sad. He couldn't be perfect! Jesus then tells him its easier for a camel to go through an eye of the needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. The disciples were bewildered and asked, "Who then can be saved?" (v. 25) And we come to the central point of this chapter when Jesus says, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

It's impossible for us to be perfect. It's impossible for us to receive any credit for our righteousness -- no matter how hard we try. The standard is extremely high for us to receive heaven -- and that's perfection! And this is the reason why Jesus came to the earth -- not to provide a way for us to pay him back -- but to be our substitute.

thanks,

[Zakuska]

I don't think so. It's more of a condition of the heart recognizing that there is no way I can be perfect or righteous based on my own efforts. Is realization a work? However, I happen to believe that only the Word of God can cause that condition of repentance or to "change". So, to take credit for repentance is taking credit away from God.

What was the first things asked of those who came unto Christ?

1. Acts 26: 20 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Repentrance is one of the first works asked of beleivers to do.

[merganzerman]

Good post, Oats. Very thoughtful reply and I appreciate that.

So here are my questions and doubts.

- I have seen the 'saving' type of faith in few people throughout my life. They are great examples of blessings of the spirit. But I have seen few who have that gift from God. Are only those who possess that gift saved?

- I have seen many people live lives of discipleship who improve their faith but who never obtain the perfect faith. Are these people damned because they were not given that gift of ideal saving faith?

- If people cannot obtain that faith and do not possess it from the beginning, I think it undermines free agency to a great degree. Is this of any relevance to you?

- I have not seen this saving faith in the great majority of mainstream Christians. Is God supposed to give them this faith after they make their profession of faith, or are they supposed to have that faith before they make their profession?

- Is that faith developed over time, through works? Or does it happen immediately to a person?

You know, when I visit with agnostics, irreligious and other non-believers, they point to the poor actions and behaviors of professed Christians as the number one reason why they will not consider faith in Christ. That just goes to show you how important it is for people to walk their talk. Agree? However, no matter how tempting it might be, we really can't look at the model or the lack thereof of other people to determine what we believe to be true. Even though there are some poor examples out there of people who profess "mainstream" Christianity, there are also some great examples as well, but we have a tendency to remember the poor ones, don't we?

I like the terminology of Christians maturing in the faith. Jesus refers us to branches and he is the trunk of the tree. The only way we can grow is if we stay connected to Christ. And the only way we can stay connected is by staying in His Word. And to your other questions, it has been my observation that people who struggle to live out their faith life are people who rely on their own power to be faithful and not in the power of God's Word. Faith is the prompter that causes people to turn to Christ. There is a great parable Jesus teaches about the seed. There are some who sprout out initially, but fail to mature or grow like a plant. Eventually, they die and are swept away by the world.

You are asking alot of good questions, but I don't want to write a lengthy post. To close, I would say that faith is instantaneous and with it comes free and full forgiveness. Yes, we can lose that faith. However, a changed and repentant heart, will constantly go to Christ and be reminded and assured of our complete forgiveness. Since free is so good to be true, our hearts respond with thanksgiving. A thankful heart is far more prone to live out a life pleasing to God.

I don't think I have completely answered your questions, but I think its a good start.

Mainstream Christianity - The gift of Saving faith is given by God and no person can influence whether or not they get that gift. Only God has responsibility in its dispersion. The fault for someone not receiving this gift lies with God.

I think you missed the definition of Mainstream Christianity. I would say it this way --- "The gift of saving Faith is given by God. God desires all men to be saved. However, a person is given a choice to reject Christ's gift. (You could call rejection a work) The fault for someone not receiving this gift lies with the individual, not God.

LDS - Faith is a gift from God dispersed according to some form of law. It can be likened to a muscle. Each person possesses some faith but their portion can be increased. This is accomplished via discipleship and works. Much of the responsibility for individual's faithfulness is based on the use of their own agency in complying with God's laws.

Does that get somewhere near the heart of the matter?

I actually think we are getting a little bit closer.

[Zakuska]

Hi: May I offer a few comments regarding the verses you selected. First of all, when you use Scripture, it's important to interpret to the whole context of the chapter -- that would be the case in both Romans 2 and Matthew 19. I think you would agree with me that it's very easy to quote anybody, let alone Scripture, to make a point if it's taken out of context.

In regards to Romans 2 -- you could certainly make a case that we are judged by works if you only focused on this passage. However, when you take in verses 1-16 of Romans 2 you can see that the point is about the principle of judgment. The central point of that chapter is that if anybody takes the position that good deeds will allow a person to enter eternal life, than it is possible -- if you are perfect. However, that's impossible, right? Yet, if it was possible for us to be perfect, than GOd would judge according to what he has done.

And yet in establishing you supposed "context"... you miss some key points in the chapter that go against you.

Romans 2

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Here is a group of "Gentiles" (having never heard the name Jesus Christ) that are justified before God pure and simply by works. And they don't even live the law perfectly but only certian parts of it.

Also you do realize how many verses tell us we are judged by our works? Judgment is just a much a part of salvation as beleiving is.

In Matthew 19 -- verses 16-29, Jesus is talking to a rich young ruler who inquires to Jesus about what he must do to receive eternal life. The young ruler has told him that he has been faithful in following all of the commandments. What does he still have to do? Jesus replies in verse 21 -- "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and though shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Knowing that he couldn't sell everything he had, the rich young ruler went away very sad. He couldn't be perfect! Jesus then tells him its easier for a camel to go through an eye of the needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. The disciples were bewildered and asked, "Who then can be saved?" (v. 25) And we come to the central point of this chapter when Jesus says, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

It's impossible for us to be perfect. It's impossible for us to receive any credit for our righteousness -- no matter how hard we try. The standard is extremely high for us to receive heaven -- and that's perfection! And this is the reason why Jesus came to the earth -- not to provide a way for us to pay him back -- but to be our substitute.

And yet he requires that we do just that.

John 14

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

PS. With God at our side it is Possilbe for men to be perfect.

[WalkerW]

As for Mormons not being Christian, David Bokovoy had an insightful thing to say to this on another board:

"The Greek word Christianos appears as a substantive a total of three times in the Bible (Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16). As Schneider observes in volume 3 of The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament published by Eerdmans, the name Christian

[WalkerW]

I like how the cultural context of grace and faith hasn't even been touched.

[Zakuska]

And finally, Daniel Peterson made a great case for Judaism, Islam, and early Christianity (i.e. the original Semitic worldview) being orthopraxic (right action) rather than orthodoxic (right belief) in his paper "What Has Athens to Do With Jerusalem?". It wasn't until the assimilation of the Greek philosophical worldview that proper belief trumped proper action. This is why modern Christians have no problem condemning another to hell because they don't believe in the Trinity or the infallibility of the Bible, despite the fact that they are a good person.

If orthodoxy where the way to heaven instead of orthpraxy then we arn't the demons saved?

James 2: 19

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

What is it that makes a Demons "beleif" in God any different than a "Believers" beleif in God?

Their works perhaps?!

"Depart into hell fire and damnation those who WORK iniquity" vs "Well done my good and faithful servant" Servants DO things for their master.

[merganzerman]

Thank you for your post. That was quite good. I agree with your point in regards to throwing out the word "Christian" in that we need to exercise caution. There are many definitions of the term and how it can be applied. In fact, as you look throughout history, there have been many bad things done "in the name of Christ" or on behalf of "Christian" organizations.

Perhaps in future posts, I will need to clarify my position on what is Christian. Briefly, I will say Christians are those who are 100% assured of being in heaven as a result of being fully and freely forgiven. I know that's a mouthful. So, maybe a better term would actually be "saints", but that could be miscontrued as well. Since saints can be defined as being perfect, that would be appropriate term for a Christian with saving faith -- which is my point. Since Mormons cannot claim that they are perfect and 100% fully forgiven as a result of Jesus being their substitute, than they are not "Christian".

[Zakuska]

Thank you for your post. That was quite good. I agree with your point in regards to throwing out the word "Christian" in that we need to exercise caution. There are many definitions of the term and how it can be applied. In fact, as you look throughout history, there have been many bad things done "in the name of Christ" or on behalf of "Christian" organizations.

Perhaps in future posts, I will need to clarify my position on what is Christian. Briefly, I will say Christians are those who are 100% assured of being in heaven as a result of being fully and freely forgiven. I know that's a mouthful. So, maybe a better term would actually be "saints", but that could be miscontrued as well. Since saints can be defined as being perfect, that would be appropriate term for a Christian with saving faith -- which is my point. Since Mormons cannot claim that they are perfect and 100% fully forgiven as a result of Jesus being their substitute, than they are not "Christian".

CFR.

Apparently according to your new definition... John wasn't a Christian.

1 Jn. 1: 9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

To be fully 100% forgiven we must confess our sins on a regular basis.

[volgadon]

Merganzerman, the goats probably thought they were 100% assured of being in heaven as a result of being fully and freely forgiven and as a result did none of the things they should have.

[volgadon]

Also your philosophy means you were earning your way because when you said that you believed in Christ, said confession is followed by a reward- salvation.

[WalkerW]

Perhaps in future posts, I will need to clarify my position on what is Christian.

I don't think "your position" on what makes a Christian is really relevant. Since this is merely your interpretation and definition, the appropriate thing to say is that Mormons are not Protestant Christians or Evangelical Christians. We will agree to that. But to monopolize and manipulate the term Christian to fit your personal beliefs is just that: you monopolizing and manipulating it to fit your beliefs.

[bluebell]

Since Mormons cannot claim that they are perfect and 100% fully forgiven as a result of Jesus being their substitute, than they are not "Christian".

Why don't you think mormons can claim such? I, as a mormon completely claim that i know i am 100% forgiven as a result being justified through the Atonement of Christ. That would mean that i, as a mormon, am a Christian according to you, right?

[volgadon]

Merganzerman, let me ask you a couple of questions. You wanted grace didn't you?

You did something in order to recieve grace didn't you?