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merganzerman

Parable of Sheep and Goats and salvation requirements

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In an ongoing dialogue between those of the Mormon faith and those of the Christian faith, there is a general disagreement on what is required for salvation. Mormons will reference to the story of the sheep and the goats found in Matthew 25:31-46 as proof that a person will be judged by their works in order to enter into heaven. I would like to take a further look into that passage.

In the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, Jesus is continuing to talk to his disciples about the end of the age. He tells them three stories or parables for the purpose of teaching central truths. The parables of the foolish virgins and unfaithful servants sets the stage for the story of the sheep and the goats. In the first two parables, we find out that 1) we need to be prepared and 2) we need to have a faithful use of our talents.

Theses parables tell us that not everybody is going to heaven. There will be a separation also known as the

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In an ongoing dialogue between those of the Mormon faith and those of the Christian faith, there is a general disagreement on what is unworthy, really wouldn

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merganzerman;

1. Mormons are Christian.

2. No one works their way into heaven.

3. We will be judged by our works.

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You mean the ongoing discussion between LDS and protestants. Both are Christians.

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The question remains, can a person enter into heaven based on the amount of works they do?

That seems to me the evangelical position. They've capped the amount at 0.

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by granting us faith

So if one doesn't have faith it is God's fault, isn't it?

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merganzerman,

Do you think starting a new thread will help you avoid the fact that you have been caught lying?

Folks,

merganzerman was caught lying in another thread. He was exposed for it, and now he is trying to avoid facing it.

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On the other thread I issued a CFR to merganzerman.

I'm familiar with Vance from Mark Cares' blog.

CFR !!!! That is a Call for reference.

The reason why he was taken off the blog was because of his derogatory remarks that was not contributing at all to the thread. After repeated warning from Mark, which were not adhered to, he had no choice but to remove Vance from the discussion.

CFR !!!!

Read the rule about call for references merganzerman. Unlike other places, here you have to back up your statements when called to do so.

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Grace, the free gift given to people who are undeserving or unworthy, really wouldn

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[Cute avatar Vance - one of the best I've seen here on the boards]

Hello friends,

To say that we are not saved by works is simply not true, friends; my full salvation took a LOT of works.

As a Latter-Day Christian, however, the emphasis was MY works, MY "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel", MY worthy behavior all done "through the atonement of Jesus Christ" (makes "filthy rags" sound good).

To those who have eternal life, however, the emphasis is 100% upon the atonement of Jesus Christ to second the decision to believe was made.

I distinctly remember the hour that I made the conscious, deliberate decision to allow eternal life to truly be a "gift of God" instead of the reward of my worthy behavior. That day, a good, honest, active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was reborn at that moment, and Jesus Christ became alive within my heart.

My life has never been the same, Friends.

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[Cute avatar Vance - one of the best I've seen here on the boards]

Hello friends,

To say that we are not saved by works is simply not true, friends; my full salvation took a LOT of works.

As a Latter-Day Christian, however, the emphasis was MY works, MY "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel", MY worthy behavior all done "through the atonement of Jesus Christ" (makes "filthy rags" sound good).

To those who have eternal life, however, the emphasis is 100% upon the atonement of Jesus Christ to second the decision to believe was made.

I distinctly remember the hour that I made the conscious, deliberate decision to allow eternal life to truly be a "gift of God" instead of the reward of my worthy behavior. That day, a good, honest, active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was reborn at that moment, and Jesus Christ became alive within my heart.

My life has never been the same, Friends.

Sounds to me you never really understood what the Atonement was about or what being LDS realy meant the first place. try reading Mosiah 3 again.

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I distinctly remember the hour that I made the conscious, deliberate decision to allow eternal life to truly be a "gift of God" instead of the reward of my worthy behavior. That day, a good, honest, active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was reborn at that moment, and Jesus Christ became alive within my heart.

Guess what I remember my day too. That day a good, honest, active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was reborn at that moment, and Jesus Christ became alive again in my heart. The only difference between me and you is I am still LDS. That is a moment all LDS must go through just like those in your faith. There are many Mormons who go through life without coming to truly understand Christ and the atonement just as there are many Evangelicas who go to church but never truly come unto Christ.

We all have to overcome some form of guilt and unworthiness and surrender it to Christ. You missed the forest for the trees-as they say.

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On the other thread I issued a CFR to merganzerman.

CFR !!!! That is a Call for reference.

CFR !!!!

Read the rule about call for references merganzerman. Unlike other places, here you have to back up your statements when called to do so.

Dear Vance:

I was not aware of the rules and regulations in regards to CFR. Thank you for calling that to my attention.

In regards to the Mark Cares' blog, I went to his blog site, www.markcares.wordpress.com, and attempted to read threads so I can find a comment or "warnings" that I refer to. I could not find any. In talking with Mark previously, I got the impression that that was the case. Regrettably, I have come to find out that no direct warning was given to you. It is now my understanding that Mark took you off the blog because your comments were really not conducive to the discussions regarding his blog posts. In other words, and these would be my words not Mark's, the tone of your posts and the fact that they were not positively contributing to the thread, is what prompted Mark to take you off. But, no messages of explanation was given to you -- at least that I could find.

So, in regards to the CFR, please accept my apologies for I was not accurate in a previous post. I will definitely attempt to be more precise and accurate in future posts. As I sent through the CFR process, I appreciate that you "called me on to the carpet" -- or something along those lines. In these threads, I recognize its importance.

Dave, Truth in Love Ministry

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Dear Vance:

I was not aware of the rules and regulations in regards to CFR. Thank you for calling that to my attention.

In regards to the Mark Cares' blog, I went to his blog site, www.markcares.wordpress.com, and attempted to read threads so I can find a comment or "warnings" that I refer to. I could not find any. In talking with Mark previously, I got the impression that that was the case. Regrettably, I have come to find out that no direct warning was given to you. It is now my understanding that Mark took you off the blog because your comments were really not conducive to the discussions regarding his blog posts. In other words, and these would be my words not Mark's, the tone of your posts and the fact that they were not positively contributing to the thread, is what prompted Mark to take you off. But, no messages of explanation was given to you -- at least that I could find.

So, in regards to the CFR, please accept my apologies for I was not accurate in a previous post. I will definitely attempt to be more precise and accurate in future posts. As I sent through the CFR process, I appreciate that you "called me on to the carpet" -- or something along those lines. In these threads, I recognize its importance.

Dave, Truth in Love Ministry

It is very nice of you to come clean on your dishonesty.

You were not familiar with my posts nor was I warned before being banned. 0 for 2 in the truth department.

It is now my understanding that Mark took you off the blog because your comments were really not conducive to the discussions regarding his blog posts.

Off course not!!!! My posts were intended to expose the falsehoods and dishonesty in Marks posts and to expose the idiocy of many of his sycophants. (Not a difficult thing to do.)

It is rather obvious, that this activity was not conducive to his anti-Mormon agenda. :P

And I understand how frustrating it must have been to have someone who continually exposed your dishonesty and derailed your deceptive agenda. The fact that he had to eliminate this exposure is very very telling in and of itself.

The problem here is that dishonesty is habitual in the "truth" in "love" ministry.

Unfortunately for you, you blindly trusted someone who is untrustworthy, and now it has seriously tainted your credibility here.

That being said, KUDOS!! to you for coming clean.

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In an ongoing dialogue between those of the Mormon faith and those of the Christian faith, there is a general disagreement on what is required for salvation. Mormons will reference to the story of the sheep and the goats found in Matthew 25:31-46 as proof that a person will be judged by their works in order to enter into heaven. I would like to take a further look into that passage.

Sounds good. I am glad you started this thread. I few other posters tried to answer this question and they did a bang up job and complelty ignored the text. Lets see how you did.

In the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, Jesus is continuing to talk to his disciples about the end of the age. He tells them three stories or parables for the purpose of teaching central truths. The parables of the foolish virgins and unfaithful servants sets the stage for the story of the sheep and the goats. In the first two parables, we find out that 1) we need to be prepared and 2) we need to have a faithful use of our talents.

I agree, I think that is what faith is, is to be faithful to Christ. That includes more than a mer belief.

Theses parables tell us that not everybody is going to heaven. There will be a separation also known as the

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[Cute avatar Vance - one of the best I've seen here on the boards]

Hello friends,

To say that we are not saved by works is simply not true, friends; my full salvation took a LOT of works.

Great I agree.

As a Latter-Day Christian, however, the emphasis was MY works, MY "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel", MY worthy behavior all done "through the atonement of Jesus Christ" (makes "filthy rags" sound good).

What are you talking about. You act as if once you confess Jesus then Jesus makes you do good works. I don't see any evidence of that in the scriptures. So your position is "Jesus" works and "Jesus" obediance to the laws and ordinaces of the gospel?? "Jesus" worhty behavior all done "trhough the atonement of Jesus Christ". That doesn't even make sense. Good job.

To those who have eternal life, however, the emphasis is 100% upon the atonement of Jesus Christ to second the decision to believe was made.

This is not true. I cannot find a single verse of scritpure what you are claiming. What abouit the sheep and the goats? more than a mer belief was required for the sheep to be saved.

I distinctly remember the hour that I made the conscious, deliberate decision to allow eternal life to truly be a "gift of God" instead of the reward of my worthy behavior. That day, a good, honest, active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was reborn at that moment, and Jesus Christ became alive within my heart.

Great, Jesus is alive in my heart too. Great to meet a fellow follower of Christ? Wait you do follow Christ right? Or do you just "beleive" in Christ with no works? You are preaching more of the " works are a product of salvation" This is impossible when you read the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. As the thing the separates them are good works.

My life has never been the same, Friends.

Great neither has mine since I accepted Jesus too.

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[Cute avatar Vance - one of the best I've seen here on the boards]

Thanks!

However, I suspect that it gives the impression that I am meaner and ornerier than I really am.

Eternal life is and has always been a gift. It is a gift that is given to the faithful and obedient.

As Paul says.

Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Those verses are plain and clear.

And these words of Jesus are also plain and clear.

Matt. 19:17 . . . if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

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Thanks!

However, I suspect that it gives the impression that I am meaner and ornerier than I really am.

Eternal life is and has always been a gift. It is a gift that is given to the faithful and obedient.

As Paul says.

Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Those verses are plain and clear.

And these words of Jesus are also plain and clear.

Matt. 19:17 . . . if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

But dontcha know vance... Jesus was talking to a Jew... keeping the commandments doesn't count for us Gentiles.

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But dontcha know vance... Jesus was talking to a Jew... keeping the commandments doesn't count for us Gentiles.

OH!! I am sorry.

I thought that when it said, "to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God" that it meant what it said.

My bad! :P

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OH!! I am sorry.

I thought that when it said, "to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God" that it meant what it said.

My bad! wink.gif

Grace abolishes all that.

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Mainstream Christians - believe that the work has been done and that the 'new creation' after they are born again or have their moment of faith is, alone, enough to satisfy God's will and pleasure.

LDS - believe that their 'moment of faith'/conversion/born again moment is only the beginning of the work of the new creation and that the new creation happens over time as they follow the path of discipleship.

I think we need to focus on the reality of how faith works outside our ideal models. Your 'saving faith' is the ideal faith, and the new creation ideally has that faith. Only those who conform with the mainstream Christian ideal of saving faith are to be saved.

Those who have been given the gift of faith become faithful. As a healthy fruit tree can

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Great I agree.

What are you talking about. You act as if once you confess Jesus then Jesus makes you do good works.

Yes! This is exactly it! Works are the result of salvation, not in order to one day obtain.

[ I don't see any evidence of that in the scriptures. So your position is "Jesus" works and "Jesus" obediance to the laws and ordinaces of the gospel?? "Jesus" worhty behavior all done "trhough the atonement of Jesus Christ". That doesn't even make sense. Good job.

This places eternal life 100% upon His works, not my own, and allows eternal life to be a gift and not the reward of worthy behavior.

FormerLDS, on 13 December 2009 - 04:01 PM, said:

To those who have eternal life, however, the emphasis is 100% upon the atonement of Jesus Christ to second the decision to believe was made.

This is not true. I cannot find a single verse of scritpure what you are claiming. What abouit the sheep and the goats? more than a mer belief was required for the sheep to be saved.

If your interpretation were correct, why are the

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This places eternal life 100% upon His works, not my own, and allows eternal life to be a gift and not the reward of worthy behavior.

And thus if you don't attain it, it is 100% Gods Fault.

Don't you see how this way of thinking is flawed?

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I think it's the difference between justification and sanctification and the difference in how lds Christians and non-lds Christians view both processes.

LDS believe that justification (being pronounced 'just' in the sight of God) happens the moment one enters the saving covenant with Christ but that sanctification (the process of becoming holy) takes time and requires that one be actively desiring to follow Christ in all things for their whole lives.

LDS believe that gaining eternal life invovles both justification AND sanctification thus, our belief that faith AND works are necessary to gain eternal life.

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Thanks!

However, I suspect that it gives the impression that I am meaner and ornerier than I really am.

Eternal life is and has always been a gift. It is a gift that is given to the faithful and obedient.

As Paul says.

Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Those verses are plain and clear.

And these words of Jesus are also plain and clear.

Matt. 19:17 . . . if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Interesting interpretation.

Do you consider your home a "gift" from the bank then, as long as you are "faithful and obedient" to make the payment every month?

Likewise, a reward is the result of worthy behavior, not a gift.

Those who have eternal life are those who have met God's requirement to keep the commandment of sinless perfection.

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