Did Yahweh Procreate Cain with Eve?

[WalkerW]

I have absolutely no idea. Evidently it's been kept secret from me, as I've never before heard of any such concept.

That is just because you are an uneducated BYU professor. You don't know the real history or teachings of the Church. I bet you didn't know that Joseph Smith used a gun in Carthage or that God is a giant chicken, did you?

[Zakuska]

If you think about it... every time we beget a child we could equally proclaim what Eve did. "I have procreated a man/woman with YHWH".

We participate in the process of creating life. Blood and water/dust from the Parents and Spirit from God. Make up the Soul of man.

[Vance]

WOW!! Another Anti-Mormon kool-aid drinker.

Ok, ok,

How about "Another Anti-Mormon dope smoker".

Would that make y'all feel better?

(oops, I says to myself, maybe former dope smokers will now be offended . . . rats, what to do about those who look for ways to be offended? Do I try {with certain failure} to appease them all?)

PS, You do realize that Jim Jones didn't use "kool-aid" but the other popular mixture of the time, right?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Please don't be too harsh on Catherine, after all, she did attempt to verify whether or not this was actually LDS beleif. Isn't this what we would hope would happen rather than taking it and attributing it to our set of beliefs?

Very well. I am glad she came here, but she did through a bomb about Bill McKeevers "teachings".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That is just because you are an uneducated BYU professor. You don't know the real history or teachings of the Church. I bet you didn't know that Joseph Smith used a gun in Carthage or that God is a giant chicken, did you?

God is a chicken? Lol. JS had a gun??? Lol.

[Doctor Steuss]

Ok, ok,

How about "Another Anti-Mormon dope smoker".

Would that make y'all feel better?

(oops, I says to myself, maybe former dope smokers will now be offended . . . rats, what to do about those who look for ways to be offended? Do I try {with certain failure} to appease them all?)

PS, You do realize that Jim Jones didn't use "kool-aid" but the other popular mixture of the time, right?

Yes, I am well aware of what he utilized (including forcibly injecting some, and shooting others).

I

[Vance]

Yes, I am well aware of what he utilized (including forcibly injecting some, and shooting others).

I

[WalkerW]

Don't forget "liberal." I've worked hard to become something this loathsome. It'd be a pity if some parts didn

[Doctor Steuss]

How else would you describe those that swallow that given to them without question?

Oh wait, I know, let's call them Mormons!

Ok, then,

How else would you describe non-mormons that swallow the fables given them by the anti-mormon fabricators without question?

I reckon "non-Mormons that swallow the fables given them by the anti-Mormon fabricators without question" works. Isn't quite as catchy, I know, but it gets the point across.

Seriously, it

[phaedrus ut]

There are a few ways of looking at the verse that make it interesting. If you consider the word qanahspoken by Eve why can she not be the co-creator of Cain with Yahweh? Much in the same way that Asherah was with El. This would make sense from a feminist creation mythology if the Yahwist writer (J) was in fact a woman as Harold Boom asserts.

Another perspective would be the view the interactions between Yahweh and his son(s),Cain and Able, as that of a disciplining parent.

Phaedrus

//Of course it could be everyone is reading into the ambiguity that comes from archaic language.

[Vance]

I reckon "non-Mormons that swallow the fables given them by the anti-Mormon fabricators without question" works. Isn't quite as catchy, I know, but it gets the point across.

Yeah but,

it isn't as (concise,) condescending nor derisive now is it?

[David Bokovoy]

Don't forget "liberal." I've worked hard to become something this loathsome. It'd be a pity if some parts didn

[Pappy Fiddle]

I was curious why or whether I was the only person who noticed this (it seemed like the salient point to me):

How could Jehovah beget a child around 4000 BC? He was a spirit at that time.

Someone even quoted from Brigham Young's sermon of April 1852, but didn't quote the part that notes a spirit cannot beget a physical body, otherwise our Elders would get into trouble every time they gave a young lady the Holy Ghost.

But then again, maybe I was the only person who noticed that one also.

Pappy

[Doctor Steuss]

[...] This would make sense from a feminist creation mythology if the Yahwist writer (J) was in fact a woman as Harold Boom asserts.

[...]

Phaedrus,

Do you happen to have a reference handy (don't need exact quote, but book/article if you've got it off the top of your head)?

Thanks.

------------------

[...] given my sincere affection for both Bob Dylan and Doctor Steuss [...]

Madmen oppose him, but your kindness throws him

[structurecop]

Phaedrus,

Do you happen to have a reference handy (don't need exact quote, but book/article if you've got it off the top of your head)?

Thanks.

Richard Friedman says that the author could have been a female in Who Wrote the Bible?.

[jkfrost]

If you think about it... every time we beget a child we could equally proclaim what Eve did. "I have procreated a man/woman with YHWH".

We participate in the process of creating life. Blood and water/dust from the Parents and Spirit from God. Make up the Soul of man.

That is an interesting way to look at it.

I like to ask the exnihiloites do you believe you were created by God

or was it a biological process from your parent

made up of existing elements?

[David Bokovoy]

i]Madmen oppose him, but your kindness throws him

I should have expected you'd go all Street Legal on me. A fine album to be sure, just way too much horn.

[phaedrus ut]

Phaedrus,

Do you happen to have a reference handy (don't need exact quote, but book/article if you've got it off the top of your head)?

Thanks.

The Book of J - Harold Bloom. Harold Bloom is a great writer and the book is interesting and accessible to the non-scholarly crowd.

Phaedrus

[Daniel Peterson]

However, when a person comes to a Christian site claiming to be a Mormon scholar, what are people to think? . . . What if a Christian had come here and said such a thing?

Wait a minute. I'm not following.

I thought you said that a Christian did say such a thing. The person who allegedly said it is a Mormon, right?

By the way, the Bill McKeever teaching clearly refutes any contention that "elohim" always refers to gods, and can never be used in a metaphorical sense - of course in Psalm 82, the "gods" referred to are wicked and are mortal - obviously not "gods" or "exalted humans" even in a Mormon sense. An appeal to this Psalm to prove polytheism is easily refuted, even by those who don't have all the scholarly qualilfications claimed by some Mormons.

Just for the record: I disagree with essentially everything in the paragraph just quoted.

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=46&chapid=258

[Cold Steel]

It doesn't do a whole lot of good to say a Mormon said this or that, as with most groups, large and small, you've got some real whackos making the rounds. The truth is, at least as far as this Mormon (me) is concerned, there hasn't been any light or knowledge revealed on the matter.

One or two hundred years ago, the idea that a woman could bear a child, the father of whom she'd never even met much less had sexual intercourse with, was inconceivable. Keep in mind that we don't have any idea how things are done in the world to come, and trying to put it into the terms and contexts we understand can be crass and ill advised.

Years ago in testimony meeting, a woman got up and talked about how fortunate Mormons were because, she said, we believed in "sex in heaven." (She was escorted off the stand fairly quickly.) And another fellow in his late 50s spoke about his mother as though she were alive, yet she had been long dead. What was really weird, though, was that he had a small kind of a casket photo locket. Open it and there his dead mother was, lying in a real coffin. He had lots of money and never did join the church, though he attended and liked to hobnob with the missionaries.

When we think of the world to come, we sometimes put it in the context we do in life, which is the only context we can think in. Trying to ask whether Jehovah had sexual relations with Eve is whacked out to begin with. First, in our theology, Jehovah is the Son of God, or Jesus, not the Father. Who sired whom and how is a question that bears no relevance to apologetics or theology.

.

[Urloony]

By the way, the Bill McKeever teaching clearly refutes any contention that "elohim" always refers to gods, and can never be used in a metaphorical sense - of course in Psalm 82, the "gods" referred to are wicked and are mortal - obviously not "gods" or "exalted humans" even in a Mormon sense.

Just what are Mr. McKeever's credentials in the field of ancient Hebrew?

An appeal to this Psalm to prove polytheism is easily refuted, even by those who don't have all the scholarly qualifications claimed by some Mormons.

If your basis for "easily refuted" is McKeevers "teaching" on the subject, you are sorely mistaken. Your oversimplification of this topic demonstrates shear ignorance.

[alter idem]

Im stealing a quote from another thread...

Excuse the giberish... I think those are supposed to be Hebrew letters.

http://www.mormonapo...al-progression/

Wisdom is said to have been procreated by God before the earth was created. Does not Eve Proclaim... I have procreadted with the Lord?

1. Gen. 4: 1 1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Uh, rather than confusing her more, could you just tell her that LDS DO NOT TEACH that "Yahweh procreated Cain with Eve".

[Catherine Aurelia]

Just what are Mr. McKeever's credentials in the field of ancient Hebrew?

If your basis for "easily refuted" is McKeevers "teaching" on the subject, you are sorely mistaken. Your oversimplification of this topic demonstrates shear ignorance.

I believe his credentials lay in the Spirit-led reading of Scripture. Also, a person with a concordance can easily see how the word "elohim" is used in many ways: angels, mighty men, besides a reference to the True God. Context is everything, and this is something Mormons need to consider.

[Doctor Steuss]

I believe his credentials lay in the Spirit-led reading of Scripture. Also, a person with a concordance can easily see how the word "elohim" is used in many ways: angels, mighty men, besides a reference to the True God. Context is everything, and this is something Mormons need to consider.

[Catherine Aurelia]

It doesn't do a whole lot of good to say a Mormon said this or that, as with most groups, large and small, you've got some real whackos making the rounds. The truth is, at least as far as this Mormon (me) is concerned, there hasn't been any light or knowledge revealed on the matter.

One or two hundred years ago, the idea that a woman could bear a child, the father of whom she'd never even met much less had sexual intercourse with, was inconceivable. Keep in mind that we don't have any idea how things are done in the world to come, and trying to put it into the terms and contexts we understand can be crass and ill advised.

Years ago in testimony meeting, a woman got up and talked about how fortunate Mormons were because, she said, we believed in "sex in heaven." (She was escorted off the stand fairly quickly.) And another fellow in his late 50s spoke about his mother as though she were alive, yet she had been long dead. What was really weird, though, was that he had a small kind of a casket photo locket. Open it and there his dead mother was, lying in a real coffin. He had lots of money and never did join the church, though he attended and liked to hobnob with the missionaries.

When we think of the world to come, we sometimes put it in the context we do in life, which is the only context we can think in. Trying to ask whether Jehovah had sexual relations with Eve is whacked out to begin with. First, in our theology, Jehovah is the Son of God, or Jesus, not the Father. Who sired whom and how is a question that bears no relevance to apologetics or theology.

.

A person presenting himself as a Mormon linguistic scholar, claiming that Genesis 4 teaches that Yahweh (which would be the pre-Incarnate Jesus according to Mormonism) was the father of Cain (of course, that would have a spirit-creature fathering a physical child), raises a lot of eyebrows - especially among Christians. Whether or not Mormons agree with this (and I would like to know what Dr. Peterson has to say), the fact is that someone stating as much (as a Mormon) is bound to cause controversy. I'm glad to see that, besides one or two ambiguous statements, nobody here believes such a thing.