Exaltaion requirements

[James Banta]

This is the same Jesus. We believe Jesus was God from the begining, co-eternal with the Father. Jesus is not just a "cog on a wheel", or "just a voice in the choir" as you describe, but the saviour of all mankind, the only Begotten of the Father. You are mistaken when you say that Jesus is the only God that ever existed, because He has always maintained that He is not the Father, and the Father is His God...or are you saying Jesus was wrong when He said that?

Jesus is not a "creation" but He is the Son of God. Is that a hard concept for you? You have not been able to wrap your mind around the concept of our spirits being the offspring of God the father, but being without a beginning or end. Eternity is a difficult concept for anybody, you just seem to have an extra hard time with it.

Then you need to read the Bible again. Jesus went to great lengths to differentiate Himself from God the Father, while maintanint their one-ness. Do you deny Jesus has a God? He says it right in the Bible. It sure sounds like you are rejecting the bible and substituting your own doctrine.

Did not God institute the law of sacrifice? Did not God grant only those with the priesthood to officiate in the ordinances He set forth? Authority to perform these ordinances are tied to the priesthood, not the general population. You say the priesthood was only tied to sacrifice, but there was more to it than that. The Levites did not have the same duties as the sons of Aaron. Tithing is specifically mentioned as a duty of the priesthood.

Jesus gave the apostles power to bind on earth and in heaven...that is the priesthood. It was not the Levitical or Aaronic priesthood that Jesus had, but the priesthood after the order of Melchisedec. Melchisedec preceeded the Levitical priesthood as he lived in the time of Abraham(before the Law of Moses), so this was nothing new. It was the Melchisedec priesthood that was bestowed upon the apostles. The Levitical priesthood was the prepatory priesthood to officiate in the prepatory ordinances that were the school teacher of Christ. There was a change in priesthood to the higher priesthood, and a change in the law to a higher law.

No where in the scriptures does it say that Jesus is the one and only High Priest as there are several identified in the scriptures.

Still denying the power of the priesthood.

From your own words, the priesthood is the duty to stand between men and God, to act in the place of God in His absence. Jesus was the final sacrifice, so we do not continue in the sacrifice of animals, but with the sacrifice of our own hearts. Jesus bestowed the keys to the kingdom on the apostles. The keys lie within the priesthood - the authority to officiate, to stand between God and man in the ordinances set forth.

You do not understand what the priesthood is. You think that the priesthood is simply the authority to perform animal sacrifice, and now that animals are no longer sacrificed, simple belief gives us the power and authority to make our own sacrifices of the heart. The priesthood is much more than animal sacrifice, but the power and authority to act in the name of God in His absence, to officiate in His ordinances and to administer His church. I did not say you denied God, but His power and authority given in the priesthood.

I did not say they were Joseph's words, but they are words that were given to him...by Jesus Christ.

What I am saying is that you don't understand that God said He is One Lord (Deut 6:4). That before Him was no God formed and there will be none in the future (Isa 43:10). That God is unaware of any other Gods but Himself (Isa 44:eight).. But Jesus says that Both He ans the Father are God.. The Apostles of Jesus identify the Holy Spirit as God.. Just to make sure we understand Jesus said it Himself (Mark 12:29)

I am also surprised that you deny the teachings of Joseph Smith:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! ...it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. ... Here, then, is eternal life to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, ... (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 305-306)

If God was once a man as we are now, didn't he have a Father in heaven, a God that created (organized) Him? I was always taught this is one eternal round and there are an infinite number of God's that our Father in heaven can trace His genealogy? Isn't that the real truth of LDS doctrine of how our Father in heaven came to be? If he was eternally God then why did Smith say that we have to learn how to become gods just like all gods before us have.. Doesn't that show that our Father in Heaven had to learn how to become a god? Then there must have been a time the Father wasn't God.. There were others that had become Gods before Him and this statement from Smith say that we can become Gods after Him.. Just how isn't that contradictory to the knowledge God gave us through the prophet Isaiah?

To turn to the LDS concept of eternal intelligences and saying that is how we are eternal actually co-eternal with God is taking only part of what I have said about what the Bible says about God.. It says that He and He alone has ALWAYS been just what He is now.. GOD.. He was never a spirit child of another God, nor was He ever in all eternity an unorganized intelligence. This new idea is NOT Biblical it make us God's equal at point in the distant past and His peer again in the far off future.. That is blasphemy! Man making himself equal with God.. The Bible is clear where our spirits were created:

Zech 12:1

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Not is a pre-existence, NO, but within us, that is where God's word says our spirits were formed.. Again mormonism is outside the teachings of the word of God.. Understand to make the whole Bible true the Job 38:7 must be other beings than man.. Angels are also called the sons of God but are not men nor can they be pre-existent men because if that were the case their spirits would not be formed yet, they can't be resurrected being because there weren't any at least from earth when this happened..

I do not deny that when Jesus was walking among us in His mortal body that He was a creation of God and therefore yes He had a God.. As I say that I fully accent Jesus to Be God at all times mortal or not.. And I still agree with the Bible that there is One God.. Oh just so you know I never stop reading the Bible..

The priesthood was NOT the inheritance of the Levities. They were in service of the tabernacle. They packed it moved it from place to place. They kept it maintained but they were never of the Priesthood.. I can't believe you tell me to read my Bible and you don't know these things.. ONLY Aaron and his sons ministered to God before the alter to make the required sacrifices. A Levite cut the wood for the alter but only the priests made the offerings on the alter.. One time two of Aaron's sons (PRIESTS) offered a sacrifice that God didn't command even that caused them to die.. But never did anyone but Aaron and His sons ministry as priests before God.. Tithing is a sacrifice an offering to God and so it is right that the Priesthood would have a duty for it.. Binding on earth and in heaven as I have explained several times now is NOT an authority of any priesthood. It is an authority that comes by being a child of the Most High.. Go look at those posts I should have to go over it and over it.. The Aaronic priesthood was a picture of the real priesthood.. There was ONE High Priest, NOT tens of thousands, and Priests.. Many priests.. No elders, no seventies, no teachers no deacons.. This in the same for the Priesthood of Melchizedek, or as better stated the Priesthood of Jesus.. Jesus and Jesus alone is the High Priest. He has a priesthood that is unchangeable (Heb 7:24 . Again in the Greek it means a priesthood that can't be passed to another. As I have said "Jesus and Jesus alone is the High Priest." Christians, His children, are the priests.. This is not the example of mormon priesthood.. Smith took the concept of priesthood and turned it in knots to make it something that Bible has never seen and you tell me I don't read the scripture...

When did I ever say that God was absent? When did I ever say that the priest stood in for God.. HE DOESN'T. The priest stands in for man before a Holy God.. This doesn't surprise me it seems that mormonism turns all things upside down.. Why not the place of the priests.. You have yet to show me a single instance of a priests having undisputed authority outside sacrifice.. you have told me that is what Jesus gave the Apostles in the authority to bind on Earth and in heaven but that nothing was said in that whole passage about priesthood. A son has authority as an heir over his father's household is that priesthood? NO, it's the right of being the masters child.. Authority is not then priesthood!!

I know what you believe priesthood is.. You believe it's the authority to act in the name of God. I believe that authority is in the being a child of God.. being that heir of the Kingdom.. I tell you the truth that priesthood is all about sacrifice. I am not just speaking of animal sacrifice here but of BLOOD sacrifice.. Yes first the type them the real sacrifice the blood of Jesus.

You can't find a single reference that I am wrong.. You are spinning your wheels.. Know why? Because I am not speaking my opinion or the opinion of any other man not even a prophet (or a man that calls himself such). I am speaking from the word of God..

Can Joseph be a true prophet if he gave false prophecy? That could be a question for another time... IHS jim

[James Banta]

I didn't even mention the pre-existence in my last post, but if that is your stumbling block than I will be happy to discuss it.

Perhaps you can start by answering this question:

1). How can something which is infinite (the spirit) have its beginning in something which is finite (the body)?

In other words, your doctrine in which the spirit is created in the womb of a human mother gives the spirit a start date associated with the need to have a mortal body.

Joseph Smith's revelations from God made it clear that spirits are eternal, that they existed before the creation of the earth, and that all who were ever to live on the earth were part of a grand council in heaven where God explained His plan that we would inhabit the earth, that we would do so in a fallen state being placed at risk by temptation, and that He would provide a Savior who He then introduced as His son Jesus (our spirit brother) who would make the Atonement that would allow us to return to God our Father after our mortal trial on earth.

The prophets of God in the LDS church since Joseph Smith have made it known through revelation from God that upon hearing the word of God at this council in heaven Lucifer and His followers rebelled and were cast out but we having accepted this Plan became the spirit children of God; He gave us spirit bodies which were gender specific and we have been descending from heaven (willingly leaving the presence of God) in order to take up human form in His creation so that we might be tested in a world fraught with dangers where our choices made in a free will could bring us down unto eternal destruction.

Furthermore, our spirits did not come into existence at the time we accepted the word of God. Joseph made it clear that we were "intellegences" before becoming the spirit children of God.

Now if you believe that your understanding can over take that which has been spoken by prophets, please share your intelligence.

I never said that the spirit of man is infinite.. Where do you get the idea that it is? The doctrine about where the spirit was formed in not MY DOCTRINE.. I showed you where it came from.. It's a Biblical doctrine.. All I said was what the Bible says God forms the spirit of man within Him.. All this womb stuff is your invention. Yes I see that Smith doctrine's about the spirits of all living things makes them immortal not eternal because God created (organized) them with the aid of one of His wives in the pre-existence.. These were the spirit for the uncreated eternal intelligences. The spirit of man, even in mormonism, had a beginning. Do you deny that? I agree with the rest of Smith's doctrine that he created but the trouble is it isn't what God taught us in the Bible.. He says clearly that which was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1Cor 15: 46) That lines up with Zach 12:1 perfectly.. God created the nature then the spiritual. This isn't in agreement with the idea of a spiritual pre-existent life at all..

I am DUMB.. I can barely read. But I read and understand the word of God and I hear God telling me some thing that have destroyed mormonism in my mind.. One, God said "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." (Mal 3:6) Then He said that the natural was made before the spiritual, and that He formed the spirit of man within him (Zach 12:1).. He also said that the heart of man is deceitful above all things (Isa 6:4) With that known why would you ever think That I would follow a man who doesn't teach in accordance with the Bible? IHS jim

[Flyonthewall]

What I am saying is that you don't understand that God said He is One Lord (Deut 6:4). That before Him was no God formed and there will be none in the future (Isa 43:10). That God is unaware of any other Gods but Himself (Isa 44:.. But Jesus says that Both He ans the Father are God.. The Apostles of Jesus identify the Holy Spirit as God.. Just to make sure we understand Jesus said it Himself (Mark 12:29)

Yet Jesus makes this statement:

16

[SearchDog]

[Deleted... almost allowed myself to get sucked back in. Shame on me.]

I am probably going to have to give up too. Talking with James is getting to be too much like a treadmill; although repeatedly passing his misconceptions under foot and making the scriptures right according to the prophets is good exercise, it tends to get a bit tedious when it becomes apparent that he is not even trying to expand his perspective.

[James Banta]

Yet Jesus makes this statement:

16

[James Banta]

I am probably going to have to give up too. Talking with James is getting to be too much like a treadmill; although repeatedly passing his misconceptions under foot and making the scriptures right according to the prophets is good exercise, it tends to get a bit tedious when it becomes apparent that he is not even trying to expand his perspective.

Of course my correction of your misinterpretation doesn't count as conversation.. Ok.. It was nice talking to you... Hoe we can talk again... IHS jim

[Flyonthewall]

In saying that only God is good did Jesus deny being that GOOD God? No, He told the rich man the truth in this life all he had to do was to keep the Law.. And the first thing from the man was a lie. The lie that he had kept the whole Law.. Yet Jesus could see greed in his heart and made him face it.. He went away convicted because of his greed and not sharing his wealth..

Did Jesus own up to being God? no. He asked: Why do you call ME good, there is none good but God. Throughout the NT Jesus made if very plain that He is not God the Father. He wasn't here to do His own will, He was here to do His Father's will. He didn't send Himself, His Father sent Him. He did not do things of Himself, but only that which He saw His Father do. At the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God. Jesus made the distinction clear.

I showed you the contradiction between Smith's god and the God of the Bible.. Smith's god was a man who became a god. The God of the Bible was a God who became a man..Smith again had it upside down.. God said that there is none like Him, he doesn't know any.

Then you do not understand what Joseph Smith taught, because Jesus was the Great I AM before He was born of Mary. Doesn't sound like Jesus was a man tha became God, since He started as God before

Isaiah 44:Eight

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 43:10

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that yea may know and believe believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

But you see no contradition.. How about this:

Deut 5:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

The Bible is teaching that there is one God, That there was never a God before God, there will be none in the future, that God is unaware that any other Beings like Him exist.. Does that contradict Smith's teaching on god(s)? Have you really seen what He said?

The Bible also teaches that God the Father is a different person than Jesus Christ, though they are one in purpose. You have been swayed by philosophies of men, and select to hear only scriptures that reflect that. Other scriptures that state very clearly that Jesus is not God the Father, you explain away something else. What was revealed through JS, ties it all together and clarifies how Jesus is called the Father and the Son, but maintaining that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ, both physically and spiritually.

Jesus is the Son because of the flesh.. He was also the God that appeared to Moses at the burning Bush or so He said He is. He said that Before Abraham was I AM. He used the name of God in reference to Himself. The Jews understood what He said to the point of picking up stone to kill Him for the crime of blasphemy. John the beloved understood who Jesus is when he said that Jesus was in the beginning with the Father and Jesus is God.. Jesus also said He was the Son of Man.. Was He denying his divinity is so saying? All these titles are His. They belong to Him. He is each of them. Isaiah had a few other titles that also belong to Jesus:

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Is the Jesus you worship all these things is He the everlasting Father? Is He is one true God that told Isaiah He didn't even know about the existence of any other God(s)? Is Jesus the God that was from everlasting and will be to everlasting? This that really the Jesus of mormonism? Or is the Jesus that Smith taught the Jesus of the LDS church a intelligence that became a spirit child (our brother in heaven, the brother of a spirit that would turn against God and become Satan? Did the Jesus you worship become a god while still a spirit (something Smith said was not possible) and under the direction of the Father and create (organized) the world? Does that really sound like the same divine Person that is God from everlasting to everlasting? I can testify to you that while I have never felt so much as heart burn when I prayed about the BofM these teaching from the Bible have been taught to me from God the Holy Spirit with His full authority to confirm truth..

Jesus, as described by JS is all of these things that you say. It is only you misconceptions that keep you from seeing it.

Is the LDS church right that that God created the body of Jesus within the womb of Mary, Yes and NO.. Smith said that the Father in a body of flesh and bone came to Mary and conceived Jesus within her the same way by the same methods our fathers conceived us within our mothers.. That isn't want the Bible teaches at all.. Read it for yourself :

Matthew 1:20

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:35

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

It was the Holy Spirit that came upon her, she was found yo be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. GOD! Are you sure mormonism is right about this? Where did the idea that The Father was the person that came to Mary?

Brigham Young stated: "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.51).

Joseph Fielding Smith denied that the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach that Christ was begotten by the Holy Ghost: "They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.19). Yet In Matthew 1:18 and 20 we read: "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.... for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." The Book of Mormon agrees with the Bible on this point, for in Alma 7:10 we read: "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, ... she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."

Bruce R. McConkie made it clear what begotten of the Fther means in LDS doctrine.

"These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47).

Is the teachings that the LDS church gives the teachings that other LDS prophets explained right as far as it is seen from the Bible? How can you say that this is the same doctrine? It isn't even close.. But was Smith right about Jesus being begotten of God, Yes he was God the Holy Spirit. Was He right in teaching that Jesus said the God is His Father and His God, yes, for so He is.. Was he right that the Father actually naturally conceived in Mary the mortal body of Jesus, NO!!..

The scriptures make no mention on specific details of how conception was achieved, only that the Holy Ghost overshadowed her, and it was through the power of the Holy Ghost that conception occured. What does that mean? What does it mean to be "overshadowed"? What does it mean to conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost? Well for those that go through fertility treatments, women can be "overshadowed" by anesthesia, and conceive by the power of the doctors that implant the embryo. If man can do this with science, it is very conceivable( ) that God the Father can be the literal Father that supplied the other half of the genome required to produce a human child.

Jesus is God, most LDS people agree to that.. What did He say about His divine nature when it came to time?

John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Yes Jesus was using the name of God indicating that He is God.. But what is this YHWH, this is the I AM and how is He before Abraham was? It's because God is NOT subject to time. He knows the beginning and the end. Therefore Jesus (God) has full knowledge of all places in all times.. So does He know us before we were formed in the belly? Because He is there at our birth, walking with us in our lives, holding us in His arms at our death and calling us for from our graves.. It's all present before Him.. The past, now, and the future.. Of course He knows us He has always known us.. You insist on making God subject to time and space something I nor the Bible do..

I say that the body the earthly body of Jesus that walk in and out among man in was a created thing.. His essence, His nature, who He really is, is uncreated. Since the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary the body of the Lord it is hard to say that His flesh was not a created thing. Mormonism teaches that His Spirit was created in a very similar way as His flesh.. The Bible on the other hand teaches that God the Son has always been present with the Father. There is no place in time when Jesus wasn't God and when He wasn't with the Father.. I deny that Jesus was the flesh that He walked in on the earth in.. It was just clay.. Jesus, that which made Him what He is unlike us was uncreated..

And yet, after His resurrection, He made it clear, that the Great I AM has a God, who is His Father.

Yes the Levities like the Sons of Aaron would get their sustenance from the tithes and offerings of the other eleven tribes.. Those that received inheritance of lands. Look it explains it right in the passage what an inheritance is "Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the Lord gave them. It is there way of making a living.. All the Levities would share in the tithes brought in and controlled by Aaron's sons the priests.. Never does the Bible say that any but the sons of Aaron would be priests.. The other houses of Levi were to give service to the tabernacle and after Solomon to the Temple.. Someone had to maintain it.. That was the inheritance and duty of the LEVITIES.. No one ever touched the ark of God. Not even the High Priest.. He only splattered blood on it twice a year on the Day of Atonement, once for himself and once for the people..

The inheritance of the Levites IS the priesthood, just like the scriptures state. Do not deny it any more! You are so dead set against the priesthood that you cannot even admit that the Levites had it.

Yes John was of Aaron. There is no indication in the Bible that John was ordained or preformed the sacrifices of the office of a priest.. John had many disciples most not from the house of Aaron. Yet John had these preforming baptisms.. Never was the subject of priesthood authority mentioned being passed to His disciples.. John has no respect for the chief priests calling them vipers just as Jesus did.. Anyone that lets a priesthood or a religion separate them from God rehanging the temple veil even if only in their hearts is the same.. Vipers spreading the poison of lies.. I still hold that the authority to act in the name of God rests in His heirs, those He calls His children by faith in Jesus:

John 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Don't you see it.. God give Power to those that believe.. Power to become His children.. How could believing this be even close to "denying the power thereof." You have not shown any authoritative scripture that shows that priesthood is anything more than what I have shown it to be.. The Priesthood was changed in that it became the Melchizedek allowing Jesus whose linage there was nothing said of priesthood.. That is the change and because of that change we live under the law of God's grace and not Law of death..

John's mission was not to perform the sacrifices of the old Law, but to prepare the way of the Lord. The Bible does not mention the ordination of Zacharias either, but we know he was a priest. We know John was ordained because he was identified as a prophet. Not just any prophet, but the fulfillment of prophecy, and the greatest of those born of women.

No man can be a false prophet and be a prophet of God.. Jesus was true about everything He gave as prophecy.. Even that that generation would not pass away till they saw Jesus coming in His glory..

Matthew 16:28, Matthew 17:1-2

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Surely Peter, James, and John, all three saw Jesus coming in His Kingdom.. See there is nothing Jesus said that did not or will not come to pass... IHS jim

Nothing was said in the scriptures that Peter, James, and John saw Jesus "coming in His kingdom", only that Jesus was transfigured before them. What does transfigure mean? If you are going to split hairs about no record of John being ordained to the priesthood because there is no mention of it in the Bible, then be consistant.

Luke 21:32. Jesus prophecied that this generation will not pass away until all be fulfilled, including the second coming. That generation has long passed away, but still no second coming.

Jonah prophecied the destruction of Ninevah. That did not happen. He was even angry with God for not fulfilling his prophecy. Yet Jonah is not denounced as a false prophet.

You find fault with Joseph Smith for reasons that can apply to many other prophets in the scriptures.

[SearchDog]

Of course my correction of your misinterpretation doesn't count as conversation.. Ok.. It was nice talking to you... Hoe we can talk again... IHS jim

Who you calling Hoe!

The key word in my conversation with the Doctor is "probably". I was only sympathizing with him.

I'm not finished with you, James. Not until I can get a clearer picture of what you truly believe.

And the only to do that is to ask you questions.

1). How is what you preach different from the CARM agenda?

The reason I ask is because I don't want to assume what you believe.

2). Do you believe that the bible is a closed book? Will there ever be additional scriptures added to the word of God?

[SearchDog]

I never said that the spirit of man is infinite.. Where do you get the idea that it is? The doctrine about where the spirit was formed in not MY DOCTRINE.. I showed you where it came from.. It's a Biblical doctrine.. All I said was what the Bible says God forms the spirit of man within Him.. All this womb stuff is your invention. Yes I see that Smith doctrine's about the spirits of all living things makes them immortal not eternal because God created (organized) them with the aid of one of His wives in the pre-existence.. These were the spirit for the uncreated eternal intelligences. The spirit of man, even in mormonism, had a beginning. Do you deny that? I agree with the rest of Smith's doctrine that he created but the trouble is it isn't what God taught us in the Bible.. He says clearly that which was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1Cor 15: 46) That lines up with Zach 12:1 perfectly.. God created the nature then the spiritual. This isn't in agreement with the idea of a spiritual pre-existent life at all..

I am DUMB.. I can barely read. But I read and understand the word of God and I hear God telling me some thing that have destroyed mormonism in my mind.. One, God said "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." (Mal 3:6) Then He said that the natural was made before the spiritual, and that He formed the spirit of man within him (Zach 12:1).. He also said that the heart of man is deceitful above all things (Isa 6:4) With that known why would you ever think That I would follow a man who doesn't teach in accordance with the Bible? IHS jim

DUMB can mean several things. If in fact you are suffering from a physical handicap, then I apologize for being so blunt. If though you are only suffering from a spiritual handicap manifesting itself in the form of stubbornness, blindness, or deafness, then I have been very tolerant of you.

Regarding your use of scripture above:

1Cor 15:46 is speaking of the progression from our human existence to the resurrection. The discussion Paul is having starts with verse 35 and continues to verse 53. Your extraction of verse 46 here cannot be used as a counter argument to our discussion on the pre-existence which covers the time frame from pre-mortality of our spirits to when our spirits come into our human existence.

Zach 12:1 - You seem to be making the argument that this proves that God created our spirit in the womb. This is a standard text used by the CARM groupies to refute the LDS doctrine of a pre-existence where we were all the spirit children of God prior to coming to earth.

That is why I asked you how your doctrine differs from the CARM agenda.

At CARM they specify that the spirit of man begins in the womb. If you don

[James Banta]

James Banta, on 15 November 2009 - 08:23 AM, said:

Quote

In saying that only God is good did Jesus deny being that GOOD God? No, He told the rich man the truth in this life all he had to do was to keep the Law.. And the first thing from the man was a lie. The lie that he had kept the whole Law.. Yet Jesus could see greed in his heart and made him face it.. He went away convicted because of his greed and not sharing his wealth..

Did Jesus own up to being God? no. He asked: Why do you call ME good, there is none good but God. Throughout the NT Jesus made if very plain that He is not God the Father. He wasn't here to do His own will, He was here to do His Father's will. He didn't send Himself, His Father sent Him. He did not do things of Himself, but only that which He saw His Father do. At the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God. Jesus made the distinction clear.

Quote

I showed you the contradiction between Smith's god and the God of the Bible.. Smith's god was a man who became a god. The God of the Bible was a God who became a man..Smith again had it upside down.. God said that there is none like Him, he doesn't know any.

Then you do not understand what Joseph Smith taught, because Jesus was the Great I AM before He was born of Mary. Doesn't sound like Jesus was a man tha became God, since He started as God before

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Isaiah 44:Eight

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 43:10

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that yea may know and believe believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

But you see no contradition.. How about this:

Deut 5:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

The Bible is teaching that there is one God, That there was never a God before God, there will be none in the future, that God is unaware that any other Beings like Him exist.. Does that contradict Smith's teaching on god(s)? Have you really seen what He said?

The Bible also teaches that God the Father is a different person than Jesus Christ, though they are one in purpose. You have been swayed by philosophies of men, and select to hear only scriptures that reflect that. Other scriptures that state very clearly that Jesus is not God the Father, you explain away something else. What was revealed through JS, ties it all together and clarifies how Jesus is called the Father and the Son, but maintaining that God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ, both physically and spiritually.

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Jesus is the Son because of the flesh.. He was also the God that appeared to Moses at the burning Bush or so He said He is. He said that Before Abraham was I AM. He used the name of God in reference to Himself. The Jews understood what He said to the point of picking up stone to kill Him for the crime of blasphemy. John the beloved understood who Jesus is when he said that Jesus was in the beginning with the Father and Jesus is God.. Jesus also said He was the Son of Man.. Was He denying his divinity is so saying? All these titles are His. They belong to Him. He is each of them. Isaiah had a few other titles that also belong to Jesus:

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Is the Jesus you worship all these things is He the everlasting Father? Is He is one true God that told Isaiah He didn't even know about the existence of any other God(s)? Is Jesus the God that was from everlasting and will be to everlasting? This that really the Jesus of mormonism? Or is the Jesus that Smith taught the Jesus of the LDS church a intelligence that became a spirit child (our brother in heaven, the brother of a spirit that would turn against God and become Satan? Did the Jesus you worship become a god while still a spirit (something Smith said was not possible) and under the direction of the Father and create (organized) the world? Does that really sound like the same divine Person that is God from everlasting to everlasting? I can testify to you that while I have never felt so much as heart burn when I prayed about the BofM these teaching from the Bible have been taught to me from God the Holy Spirit with His full authority to confirm truth..

Jesus, as described by JS is all of these things that you say. It is only you misconceptions that keep you from seeing it.

Is the LDS church right that that God created the body of Jesus within the womb of Mary, Yes and NO.. Smith said that the Father in a body of flesh and bone came to Mary and conceived Jesus within her the same way by the same methods our fathers conceived us within our mothers.. That isn't want the Bible teaches at all.. Read it for yourself :

Matthew 1:20

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:35

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

It was the Holy Spirit that came upon her, she was found yo be with Child of the Holy Spirit.. GOD! Are you sure mormonism is right about this? Where did the idea that The Father was the person that came to Mary?

Brigham Young stated: "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.51).

Joseph Fielding Smith denied that the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach that Christ was begotten by the Holy Ghost: "They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.19). Yet In Matthew 1:18 and 20 we read: "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.... for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." The Book of Mormon agrees with the Bible on this point, for in Alma 7:10 we read: "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, ... she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."

Bruce R. McConkie made it clear what begotten of the Father means in LDS doctrine.

"These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47).

Is the teachings that the LDS church gives the teachings that other LDS prophets explained right as far as it is seen from the Bible? How can you say that this is the same doctrine? It isn't even close.. But was Smith right about Jesus being begotten of God, Yes he was God the Holy Spirit. Was He right in teaching that Jesus said the God is His Father and His God, yes, for so He is.. Was he right that the Father actually naturally conceived in Mary the mortal body of Jesus, NO!!..

The scriptures make no mention on specific details of how conception was achieved, only that the Holy Ghost overshadowed her, and it was through the power of the Holy Ghost that conception occured. What does that mean? What does it mean to be "overshadowed"? What does it mean to conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost? Well for those that go through fertility treatments, women can be "overshadowed" by anesthesia, and conceive by the power of the doctors that implant the embryo. If man can do this with science, it is very conceivable( ) that God the Father can be the literal Father that supplied the other half of the genome required to produce a human child.

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Jesus is God, most LDS people agree to that.. What did He say about His divine nature when it came to time?

John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Yes Jesus was using the name of God indicating that He is God.. But what is this YHWH, this is the I AM and how is He before Abraham was? It's because God is NOT subject to time. He knows the beginning and the end. Therefore Jesus (God) has full knowledge of all places in all times.. So does He know us before we were formed in the belly? Because He is there at our birth, walking with us in our lives, holding us in His arms at our death and calling us for from our graves.. It's all present before Him.. The past, now, and the future.. Of course He knows us He has always known us.. You insist on making God subject to time and space something I nor the Bible do..

I say that the body the earthly body of Jesus that walk in and out among man in was a created thing.. His essence, His nature, who He really is, is uncreated. Since the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary the body of the Lord it is hard to say that His flesh was not a created thing. Mormonism teaches that His Spirit was created in a very similar way as His flesh.. The Bible on the other hand teaches that God the Son has always been present with the Father. There is no place in time when Jesus wasn't God and when He wasn't with the Father.. I deny that Jesus was the flesh that He walked in on the earth in.. It was just clay.. Jesus, that which made Him what He is unlike us was uncreated..

And yet, after His resurrection, He made it clear, that the Great I AM has a God, who is His Father.

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Yes the Levities like the Sons of Aaron would get their sustenance from the tithes and offerings of the other eleven tribes.. Those that received inheritance of lands. Look it explains it right in the passage what an inheritance is "Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the Lord gave them. It is there way of making a living.. All the Levities would share in the tithes brought in and controlled by Aaron's sons the priests.. Never does the Bible say that any but the sons of Aaron would be priests.. The other houses of Levi were to give service to the tabernacle and after Solomon to the Temple.. Someone had to maintain it.. That was the inheritance and duty of the LEVITIES.. No one ever touched the ark of God. Not even the High Priest.. He only splattered blood on it twice a year on the Day of Atonement, once for himself and once for the people..

The inheritance of the Levites IS the priesthood, just like the scriptures state. Do not deny it any more! You are so dead set against the priesthood that you cannot even admit that the Levites had it.

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Yes John was of Aaron. There is no indication in the Bible that John was ordained or preformed the sacrifices of the office of a priest.. John had many disciples most not from the house of Aaron. Yet John had these preforming baptisms.. Never was the subject of priesthood authority mentioned being passed to His disciples.. John has no respect for the chief priests calling them vipers just as Jesus did.. Anyone that lets a priesthood or a religion separate them from God rehanging the temple veil even if only in their hearts is the same.. Vipers spreading the poison of lies.. I still hold that the authority to act in the name of God rests in His heirs, those He calls His children by faith in Jesus:

John 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Don't you see it.. God give Power to those that believe.. Power to become His children.. How could believing this be even close to "denying the power thereof." You have not shown any authoritative scripture that shows that priesthood is anything more than what I have shown it to be.. The Priesthood was changed in that it became the Melchizedek allowing Jesus whose linage there was nothing said of priesthood.. That is the change and because of that change we live under the law of God's grace and not Law of death..

John's mission was not to perform the sacrifices of the old Law, but to prepare the way of the Lord. The Bible does not mention the ordination of Zacharias either, but we know he was a priest. We know John was ordained because he was identified as a prophet. Not just any prophet, but the fulfillment of prophecy, and the greatest of those born of women.

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No man can be a false prophet and be a prophet of God.. Jesus was true about everything He gave as prophecy.. Even that that generation would not pass away till they saw Jesus coming in His glory..

Matthew 16:28, Matthew 17:1-2

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Surely Peter, James, and John, all three saw Jesus coming in His Kingdom.. See there is nothing Jesus said that did not or will not come to pass... IHS jim

Nothing was said in the scriptures that Peter, James, and John saw Jesus "coming in His kingdom", only that Jesus was transfigured before them. What does transfigure mean? If you are going to split hairs about no record of John being ordained to the priesthood because there is no mention of it in the Bible, then be consistant.

Luke 21:32. Jesus prophecied that this generation will not pass away until all be fulfilled, including the second coming. That generation has long passed away, but still no second coming.

Jonah prophecied the destruction of Ninevah. That did not happen. He was even angry with God for not fulfilling his prophecy. Yet Jonah is not denounced as a false prophet.

You find fault with Joseph Smith for reasons that can apply to many other prophets in the scriptures.

Know what you are so right!! A woman could be "overshadowed" by anesthesia, and conceive by the power of the doctors that implant the embryo. This however is not the Natural way that your church leaders testified was the way Jesus was conceived..

Brigham Young taught that "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood

[James Banta]

Who you calling Hoe!

The key word in my conversation with the Doctor is "probably". I was only sympathizing with him.

I'm not finished with you, James. Not until I can get a clearer picture of what you truly believe.

And the only to do that is to ask you questions.

1). How is what you preach different from the CARM agenda?

The reason I ask is because I don't want to assume what you believe.

2). Do you believe that the bible is a closed book? Will there ever be additional scriptures added to the word of God?

If I were you I would report that as a personal attack..Never mind that the "e" and the "W" are right next to each other on the keyboard and it might just have been a finger slip that my eye nor the spell checker would find because Hoe is a garden tool as well as an insult too..

I have been a member of CARM.. I had no agenda there that you don't see here.. I tell people what God has taught me in the Bible. I try to be salt and resist corruption. Is that an agenda? I came here wanting help in dealing with a post on Walter Martin. I wanted to know if LDS people see polygamy as a saving ordinance, Richard there told me that ALL who are save must at least believe that polygamy is a doctrine of God becoming Polygamist at least in their hearts as He insisted BY taught it to receive exaltation.. I wanted to actually find out how many of you actually hold that position.. I thought asking here was better than interrupting a sacrament meeting to gain that information.. That is my agenda for coming here..

Here it seemed that I was welcomed and I thought I might even try posting off this thread.. I did and was banned from the topic thread I tried to join.. So much for being welcome... When this thread has reached it's limits I will disappear again.. That is my agenda for MADB.. On Walter Martin I will continue to lift Jesus up so that He can draw all men to Himself (John 12:32).. There if I must clear away the debris of false teaching and false gods to have a clean place to lift my Lord so be it but even then I will try to do so in humility and love as I have tried to do here.. That in my Agenda there.. That was my agenda when I was on CARM..

The Bible is what the Bible is, The revelation of Jesus Christ.. I am not saying there can't be more revelation. I will say that anything new will have the same message as what we have been given in the Bible.. Jesus is the Way to the Father there is no other path.. God is one Lord, there has not been nor will there ever be any other formed.. The Church are those He adds to the Church not those that are given permission by a man. That all who believe on Him as He is revealed in the Bible trusting Him to be truthful in all He has done, all He is doing, and all He will do are His children and He holds them in His hand and NONE can take them out of His hand not even themselves.. I hope you have a clearer picture of my faith now.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

DUMB can mean several things. If in fact you are suffering from a physical handicap, then I apologize for being so blunt. If though you are only suffering from a spiritual handicap manifesting itself in the form of stubbornness, blindness, or deafness, then I have been very tolerant of you.

Regarding your use of scripture above:

1Cor 15:46 is speaking of the progression from our human existence to the resurrection. The discussion Paul is having starts with verse 35 and continues to verse 53. Your extraction of verse 46 here cannot be used as a counter argument to our discussion on the pre-existence which covers the time frame from pre-mortality of our spirits to when our spirits come into our human existence.

Zach 12:1 - You seem to be making the argument that this proves that God created our spirit in the womb. This is a standard text used by the CARM groupies to refute the LDS doctrine of a pre-existence where we were all the spirit children of God prior to coming to earth.

That is why I asked you how your doctrine differs from the CARM agenda.

At CARM they specify that the spirit of man begins in the womb. If you don

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

James Banta, on 15 November 2009 - 08:23 AM, said:

Jacob 2:24

Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

It is clear that the teaching of the BofM called both David's and Solomon's actions in taking many wives an abomination before Him but look how that changed:

We have been over this before James. Come on.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What I am saying is that you don't understand that God said He is One Lord (Deut 6:4). That before Him was no God formed and there will be none in the future (Isa 43:10). That God is unaware of any other Gods but Himself (Isa 44:.. But Jesus says that Both He ans the Father are God.. The Apostles of Jesus identify the Holy Spirit as God.. Just to make sure we understand Jesus said it Himself (Mark 12:29)

I am also surprised that you deny the teachings of Joseph Smith:

IHS jim

I see. Is this a rebuttle to our comments about the preisthhod? It doens't look like one.

CFR that " The Apostles of Jesus identify the Holy Spirit as God.." since we are in the spirit of going in a different direction.

[James Banta]

We have been over this before James. Come on.

All we have been over is you saying that there are different laws for different times.. That doesn't deal with the Fact that the BofM says that for king David polygamy was an abomination but in the D&C he was justified because Nathan gave him the wives.. It is contradictory and we have never dealt with that fact..

I really don't care why David had many wive and who gave them to him.. The BofM and the D&C are contradictory..

IHS jim

[James Banta]

I see. Is this a rebuttle to our comments about the preisthhod? It doens't look like one.

CFR that " The Apostles of Jesus identify the Holy Spirit as God.." since we are in the spirit of going in a different direction.

I don't know how you read this answer but I was specking to this part of flyonthewall's post that read

"Then you need to read the Bible again. Jesus went to great lengths to differentiate Himself from God the Father, while maintanint their one-ness. Do you deny Jesus has a God? He says it right in the Bible. It sure sounds like you are rejecting the bible and substituting your own doctrine." IHS jim

Sorry you got confussed..

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

All we have been over is you saying that there are different laws for different times.. That doesn't deal with the Fact that the BofM says that for king David polygamy was an abomination but in the D&C he was justified because Nathan gave him the wives.. It is contradictory and we have never dealt with that fact..

I really don't care why David had many wive and who gave them to him.. The BofM and the D&C are contradictory..

IHS jim

I will not have this conversation again. James I have been over this with you in this very thread.

I don't know how you read this answer but I was specking to this part of flyonthewall's post that read

"Then you need to read the Bible again. Jesus went to great lengths to differentiate Himself from God the Father, while maintanint their one-ness. Do you deny Jesus has a God? He says it right in the Bible. It sure sounds like you are rejecting the bible and substituting your own doctrine." IHS jim

Very well.

"oness" means more than just a number. I maintain that the Father, Christ, and the HG are one just as John 17 outlines. Jesus prays that his followers are to be one just as he and his Father are one.

[James Banta]

'Mola Ram Suda Ram' date='16 November 2009 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1258398674' post='1208754238']

I will not have this conversation again. James I have been over this with you in this very thread.

That's fine I am not asking you to respond.. If you don't want to then don't.. It's not a big deal.. I will not cry myself to sleep because this thread goes away.. And because it has become clear that I am not welcome on the others, I won't be doing much posting here either.. Will will never agree that there is One God.. I will just trust what Jesus said on the subject you I guess will twist His simple words into what you want them to say... IHS jim

[Vance]

There is no teaching of any pre-existence in 1 Cor anywhere..

TRUE!!!! And we never claimed it did. But it doesn't teach what you are claiming either.

The passage in Chapter 15:35-53 is about the resurrection teaching that we will be raised in a different kind of body in the resurrection..

TRUE!!! It is talking about the resurrection NOT about the creation of the spirit of man. Take a look.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

It is talking about the resurrection, NOT about the creation of the spirit of man.

[James Banta]

TRUE!!!! And we never claimed it did. But it doesn't teach what you are claiming either.

TRUE!!! It is talking about the resurrection NOT about the creation of the spirit of man. Take a look.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

It is talking about the resurrection, NOT about the creation of the spirit of man.

You are preaching to the choir.. This passage is about the resurrection and how our bodies will differ from what they are now in that day. The difference of the earthy body to that which will come forth in the resurrection.. To make this comparison the creation of the natural body is discussed and called earthly. The terrestrial bodies are our earthly bodies, the celestial bodies are the heavenly. It is NOT about degrees of glory of heaven.. If you see this you are not far from the Kingdom of God..

The creation of the spirit of man is in Zech 12:1, but is talked about in this passage as well in verses 45. and 46.. Surely you see it speaks of Adam being made a living soul.. And that the natural comes before the spiritual? If that is true then our spirits, the spirits of all men are created inside our natural bodies because the natural is first.. IHS jim

[Vance]

All we have been over is you saying that there are different laws for different times.. That doesn't deal with the Fact that the BofM says that for king David polygamy was an abomination but in the D&C he was justified because Nathan gave him the wives.. It is contradictory and we have never dealt with that fact..

I really don't care why David had many wive and who gave them to him.. The BofM and the D&C are contradictory..

IHS jim

Actually, to those who can read AND UNDERSTAND what the BofM and the D&C say, there is NO contradiction at all.

For you to claim otherwise tells more about you than it does about them.

[Vance]

Zech 12:1 doesn't say when God creates our spirits only that He does so within us..

Well let's look at the real verse, shall we.

1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

It doesn't say when.

It doesn't say how.

It doesn't say where, either.

It is very clear that the spirit within man was formed by the Lord.

If you look at other uses of the phrase "within him" it is clear that it is a the discription of the CURRENT location of an object, nothing more. See 1 Sam. 25:36-37, Job 14:22, Job 20:14, Prov. 26:24, Isa. 63:11.

Does it matter if the Christians on CARM use a verse of the Bile that teaches a truth about where and when God created our spirits?

The problem is that the only scriptures that describe the creation of the spirits of man are found in LDS canon. There isn't any in the Bible, although there are evidences that it was some time prior to conception (all of which are ignored by the "scholars" at CARM).

This is God's word not CARM's word..

Actually it is the other way around, it ISN'T God's word but simply CARM's erroneous interpretation.

As the passage teaches I believe it to be.. God creates our spirits within us.. I am not one that will say when He does this.. It could be in the womb, it could be when we become God aware.. The passage doesn't say.. I believe the passage..

It could be (and is) that the spirit was created eons before physical conception.

Infinite as I understand it means endless boundless without a beginning without an end.. Since the spirit of man had a beginning it can be said to me immortal but not infinate... Is that clear..

Not really, to be infinite only requires the continuation infinitely in one direction. Therefore if you are immortal (live forever forward into infinity) you are by difinition infinite. Is that clear?

Also in the consitiuent matter of which the spirit is created or organized is eternal (without beginning or end) then the spirit is also eternal.

our spirits will go one into the future for all time but they are not eternal in saying that they have always existed.. God formed them...

And He did so from existing/eternal matter.

[Flyonthewall]

James Banta, on 15 November 2009 - 08:23 AM, said:

Know what you are so right!! A woman could be "overshadowed" by anesthesia, and conceive by the power of the doctors that implant the embryo. This however is not the Natural way that your church leaders testified was the way Jesus was conceived..

Brigham Young taught that "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood

[James Banta]

Actually, to those who can read AND UNDERSTAND what the BofM and the D&C say, there is NO contradiction at all.

For you to claim otherwise tells more about you than it does about them.

Then I am asking without other agenda, please explain how a man can be an abomination in the BofM for having many wives and in the D&C for the same actions be justified before God.. I really don't understand how that can be... IHS jim

[James Banta]

Well let's look at the real verse, shall we.

1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

It doesn't say when.

It doesn't say how.

It doesn't say where, either.

It is very clear that the spirit within man was formed by the Lord.

If you look at other uses of the phrase "within him" it is clear that it is a the discription of the CURRENT location of an object, nothing more. See 1 Sam. 25:36-37, Job 14:22, Job 20:14, Prov. 26:24, Isa. 63:11.

The problem is that the only scriptures that describe the creation of the spirits of man are found in LDS canon. There isn't any in the Bible, although there are evidences that it was some time prior to conception (all of which are ignored by the "scholars" at CARM).

Actually it is the other way around, it ISN'T God's word but simply CARM's erroneous interpretation.

It could be (and is) that the spirit was created eons before physical conception.

Not really, to be infinite only requires the continuation infinitely in one direction. Therefore if you are immortal (live forever forward into infinity) you are by difinition infinite. Is that clear?

Also in the consitiuent matter of which the spirit is created or organized is eternal (without beginning or end) then the spirit is also eternal.

And He did so from existing/eternal matter.

Doesn't 1 Sam 25:36-37 tell us that Nabal heart is within him? First he was merry, then depressed. It will teaches that it was WITHIN him. In Job 14:22 clearly teaches that our flesh is upon us and out soul is within us.. Proverbs 26:24 agrees with Zech 12:1 that our deceit is within us.. INSIDE us.. Even Isaiah 63:11 teaches that Moses was indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Just like today Christian believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside us.. This says the same thing..

Within means INSIDE us.. God created our spirit INSIDE us.. Or physical bodies had to exist for God to create our spirit in side them.. It is a simple thing, it is the word of God, and it contradicts what Smith taught about a preexistence.. Along with 1 Cor 15 that tell us that the natural comes before the spiritual it is clear that Smith was wrong and there was no spiritual creation before there was the natural creation.. And God formed our spirit INSIDE our natural bodies.. You say there isn't any biblical authority for the creation of the spiritual in the Bible yet these two passages make it clear where God created our spirits..

In Genesis God blew into Adam and he became a living soul.. Just so you know the Hebrew word for wind and spirit in the same word.. God created Adam's spirit WITHIN his natural body.. You call my word a copy of error taught on CARM.. Sorry but I have shown you clearly where the words I have used have come from.. You gave an explanation of the passage that changes it structure to the point that it no longer has the meaning of the original passage.. You said "the spirit within man was formed by the Lord." Would that have been a very useful thing to tell men that believed God made all things.. The real passage gives real information "the Lord,... formeth the spirit of man within him. " Not just that He made us by where He made us.. You take that out of the passge and change it totally. You are in violation of Deut 12:32.. You have added and taken away from God's word in this matter.. No the passage doesn't say when, it doesn't say how. But it does say where.. WITHIN us..

You can either believe Him or call Him a liar but you can't say you follow Him and mistrust what He teaches you from His word.. IHS jim

BTW how He created and what creation means is a matter for another discussion...