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mrmendoza

What must I do to be saved?

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On another thread I possed the question that went something like this, I was "saved when I was about 9 or 10, or maybe a little younger then that, I don't remember the year exactly, that was a long time ago. When I answered the alter call at the Baptist Church which we attended and told the preacher that I wanted to be baptised, he told me that I needed to ask Jesus to come into my heart and save me from my sins before he could baptise me and I answered that I had already done that, which I had, sometime before that. Now while I'll admit that I wasn't always faithful in my beliefs, and I suffered a sever crisis of faith a few years later, I never stoped loving, and longing for the peace I had with Jesus! A few years later I gained a testimony of the Restored Gospel and once again dedicated my life to Jesus as a "Mormon". Does that "unsave" me? Now don't start judgeing me by saying that I probably wasn't really saved in the first place, because I know that in my heart at the time I had definitly accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior! So, if I was saved then, am I still saved now that I've accepted the Restored Gospel?

The question goes to the heart of the "Once saved, always saved" idea that so many EVs are always touting, and yet are always equificating about. Of course DlClark took the easy way out by saying

if you left the Christian faith and entered Mormonism you never were sved in the first place or you never would have left.

Now the point is, that when I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior, and Lord, I was in a Southern Baptist Church, and following all that I was told to do, believing in faith, that if I called on Him to save me, He would! This was the same Jesus that Dl is always talking about. I knew nothing else at the time, and even now I have no doubts about the sincerity of my faith, or my prayers for salvation. So then he says,

1. You may have never been saved in the first plce. Not all faith is salvic.

When I told him that I had a testimony of the Restored Gospel he said,

DLClark, on 27 October 2009 - 07:26 AM, said:

A testimony never saves anyone. Only Christ does the saving because He is the only One, True, Eternal, Creator God that is able to save us.

So there's the delema, and I think that this goes to most EVs, if we call upon Jesus to save us, as they say we're supposed to, having faith that He will do so, afterwhich we recieve unconditional salvation, forever, with or without works of any kind, unless we do something stupid like becomming a Mormon, in which case, all bets are off!

Faith alone wont save us, works wont save us, a testimony has no bearing, only Jesus can save us (Which is true of course!), but how will we know? How is it that OSAS can apply to the worst backslider, but not to someone who has gained a different perspective of how it works?

Then there're those who, after throwing the Bible at us and basicly calling us heretics, then turn around and say that half the teachings of the NT, and almost none of the OT, don't really apply to us today!

So, the question I'm asking all you EVs out there, whether or not you totality agree with each other, what must I do to be saved? And how am I supposed to know if it works?

Mike

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maintain allegiance to essential core doctrine.

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maintain allegiance to essential core doctrine.

Wait, so you can loose your salvation. Did I get that right?

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Which is?

Mike

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The way to the cessation of suffering is in following the Noble Eightfold Path.

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1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The way to the cessation of suffering is in following the Noble Eightfold Path.

This sounds something like the Jedi Code.

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Hello mrmendoza,

I'm not an ev. I grew up Catholic, joined the LDS church, Became involved in the jesus movement of the 70's, left the LDS church,becamne an EV for a while, and eventually ended up in the ARE (association for research and enlightenment).

To respond to the 1st point of your question your question (whether or not you totality agree with each other) theologens have a tendency to believe theology is important just like the lds leaders have a tendency to believe that their theology ( or at least not open disagreement to it) is important. Theologens with regareds to the once saved always saved doctrine do not all agree with each other.

"what must I do to be saved?" I share your view that the altar call experience you had as a child was very real. The problem with your question is that an individual can be saved from anything. I'm going to assume you meant it in the sense commonly used by EV's (saved from hell and going to heaven). The problem with this view is that when the apostles used the term "saved", they used it in the sense of being saved from sin. Jesus used the word saved in the EV sense of the word when he was talking to the rich man, and he recommended keeping God's commandments, (the law of Moses).

"And how am I supposed to know if it works?" If you study God's law and sort out which commandments would apply to you and make a commitment to observe his law, (Do some outward thing to signify you have decided to follow his law) then you will receive the holy spirit to change you. You will know it is there. It will not necesarily stay with you if you fall back.

I guess I have a little bit of theologan in me.

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So, the question I'm asking all you EVs out there, whether or not you totality agree with each other, what must I do to be saved? And how am I supposed to know if it works?

Mike

I think the parable of the sower throws the EV way to salvation out the window.

Luke 8

4

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EbedKnow.png

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The way to the cessation of suffering is in following the Noble Eightfold Path.

This sounds something like the Jedi Code.

The Noble Eight-fold Path was laid out by Siddhartha Gautama as a way to the end of human suffering. That and the Four Noble Truths are basics of Buddhism.

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1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The way to the cessation of suffering is in following the Noble Eightfold Path.

[further derail]

Unfortunately, this all breaks down with number 2. I used to have a housemate whom I'll call Super Buddhist who was trying really hard to eliminate all attachment. He was the least happy, peaceful person I've ever met. Attachment to people (love) and to truth is not the origin of but rather the remedy for suffering.

[/further derail]

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The Noble Eight-fold Path was laid out by Siddhartha Gautama as a way to the end of human suffering. That and the Four Noble Truths are basics of Buddhism.

Really? I thought that was the basis of Calvinism.

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Isn't there a passage in the New Testament somewhere in which the Saviour rebuked the Pharisees for attempting to close the gates of heaven to those who didn't agree with them?

I'm everlastingly grateful that the truths of the Restoration make it possible for me to view my non-LDS brothers and sisters with charity and hopefulness. They can--and I sincerely hope will!--enjoy all the blessings the Lord has to offer. I have no desire for them to partake of anything less.

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[further derail]

Unfortunately, this all breaks down with number 2. I used to have a housemate whom I'll call Super Buddhist who was trying really hard to eliminate all attachment. He was the least happy, peaceful person I've ever met. Attachment to people (love) and to truth is not the origin of but rather the remedy for suffering.

[/further derail]

As far as I'm concerned, it breaks down at number 1. Personally, I think life is super awesome, with suffering being the lows that let you appreciate the highs.

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As far as I'm concerned, it breaks down at number 1. Personally, I think life is super awesome, with suffering being the lows that let you appreciate the highs.

So true, brother. I actually couldn't agree with you more.

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Found it! It's Matthew 23:13: 'But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.'

Truly, nothing is new under the sun, hey?

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So true, brother. I actually couldn't agree with you more.

Zen's still cool, though. I kill the Buddha and make him stay dead.

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On another thread I possed the question that went something like this, I was "saved when I was about 9 or 10, or maybe a little younger then that, I don't remember the year exactly, that was a long time ago. When I answered the alter call at the Baptist Church which we attended and told the preacher that I wanted to be baptised, he told me that I needed to ask Jesus to come into my heart and save me from my sins before he could baptise me and I answered that I had already done that, which I had, sometime before that. Now while I'll admit that I wasn't always faithful in my beliefs, and I suffered a sever crisis of faith a few years later, I never stoped loving, and longing for the peace I had with Jesus! A few years later I gained a testimony of the Restored Gospel and once again dedicated my life to Jesus as a "Mormon". Does that "unsave" me? Now don't start judgeing me by saying that I probably wasn't really saved in the first place, because I know that in my heart at the time I had definitly accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior! So, if I was saved then, am I still saved now that I've accepted the Restored Gospel?

The question goes to the heart of the "Once saved, always saved" idea that so many EVs are always touting, and yet are always equificating about. Of course DlClark took the easy way out by saying

Now the point is, that when I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior, and Lord, I was in a Southern Baptist Church, and following all that I was told to do, believing in faith, that if I called on Him to save me, He would! This was the same Jesus that Dl is always talking about. I knew nothing else at the time, and even now I have no doubts about the sincerity of my faith, or my prayers for salvation. So then he says,

When I told him that I had a testimony of the Restored Gospel he said,

So there's the delema, and I think that this goes to most EVs, if we call upon Jesus to save us, as they say we're supposed to, having faith that He will do so, afterwhich we recieve unconditional salvation, forever, with or without works of any kind, unless we do something stupid like becomming a Mormon, in which case, all bets are off!

Faith alone wont save us, works wont save us, a testimony has no bearing, only Jesus can save us (Which is true of course!), but how will we know? How is it that OSAS can apply to the worst backslider, but not to someone who has gained a different perspective of how it works?

Then there're those who, after throwing the Bible at us and basicly calling us heretics, then turn around and say that half the teachings of the NT, and almost none of the OT, don't really apply to us today!

So, the question I'm asking all you EVs out there, whether or not you totality agree with each other, what must I do to be saved? And how am I supposed to know if it works?

Mike

I am relatively new here, but I already understand the basic difference in the two belief systems on this issue, and I'm guessing you do too. So, what is the point? This post reminds me of when the LDS folks get all upset when a non-LDS comes here and lays out some sort of silly trap, the sole, ultimate and intended purpose of which is to trounce all over the person's beliefs and essentially set up the opportunity to call the LDS person stupid and tell them they are wrong.

Respectfully,

Balzer

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On another thread I possed the question that went something like this, I was "saved when I was about 9 or 10, or maybe a little younger then that, I don't remember the year exactly, that was a long time ago. When I answered the alter call at the Baptist Church which we attended and told the preacher that I wanted to be baptised, he told me that I needed to ask Jesus to come into my heart and save me from my sins before he could baptise me and I answered that I had already done that, which I had, sometime before that. Now while I'll admit that I wasn't always faithful in my beliefs, and I suffered a sever crisis of faith a few years later, I never stoped loving, and longing for the peace I had with Jesus! A few years later I gained a testimony of the Restored Gospel and once again dedicated my life to Jesus as a "Mormon". Does that "unsave" me? Now don't start judgeing me by saying that I probably wasn't really saved in the first place, because I know that in my heart at the time I had definitly accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior! So, if I was saved then, am I still saved now that I've accepted the Restored Gospel?

The question goes to the heart of the "Once saved, always saved" idea that so many EVs are always touting, and yet are always equificating about. Of course DlClark took the easy way out by saying

Now the point is, that when I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior, and Lord, I was in a Southern Baptist Church, and following all that I was told to do, believing in faith, that if I called on Him to save me, He would! This was the same Jesus that Dl is always talking about. I knew nothing else at the time, and even now I have no doubts about the sincerity of my faith, or my prayers for salvation. So then he says,

When I told him that I had a testimony of the Restored Gospel he said,

So there's the delema, and I think that this goes to most EVs, if we call upon Jesus to save us, as they say we're supposed to, having faith that He will do so, afterwhich we recieve unconditional salvation, forever, with or without works of any kind, unless we do something stupid like becomming a Mormon, in which case, all bets are off!

Faith alone wont save us, works wont save us, a testimony has no bearing, only Jesus can save us (Which is true of course!), but how will we know? How is it that OSAS can apply to the worst backslider, but not to someone who has gained a different perspective of how it works?

Then there're those who, after throwing the Bible at us and basicly calling us heretics, then turn around and say that half the teachings of the NT, and almost none of the OT, don't really apply to us today!

So, the question I'm asking all you EVs out there, whether or not you totality agree with each other, what must I do to be saved? And how am I supposed to know if it works?

Mike

Beeing an ex Lutheran I meet this condemt often. The Protestants have found a new way to go around the problem, that in fact in their religion EVERYBODY who utters the words : I believe (in Christ and the atonement) Will be saved. They have found out that we have a "different Jesus" :P This is how they justify their thoughts. Their God, HS and Jesus is one something, you know, and we believe they all are 3 separate beeings. Catholics have taken the side of protestants in this.

It really is interesting, that they have to go so far as to find out that we have a "different Jesus" to justify this to themselves.... so as we do not believe in the right Jesus it dont matter what we say, we say it to a wrong person.

I too have been VERY active in the Lutheran belief/Church ever since I was 5 to 30.

Funny thing is, that we "allow" everybody to be saved even atheists or those within nature religions or islam. Many Protestants think, that to "be saved" means to be saved from hell, still they claim we do not allow them to heaven... they can not think of heaven without God, whose embodument is... right Jesus... and that is just what we believe good protestants will get.. so this argument I think is very redicilous, as we "allow" them what they desire but they are ready to throw us to hell. Word "allow" is not quite right as it is God that "allows" luckily not us! ;)

Protestants are hurt of the 3 levels of Gods kingdoms and the fact that we claim you need to be eternally married to reach the 3 level. They do not want to hear that we do the work for them, some do not even want us to do the work for them... and only in third level you meet God.. which for them is the trinitial God. :crazy:

Simple things CAN be made soooo complicated ... if one will :fool:

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Simple things CAN be made soooo complicated ... if one will :P

Ain't it the truth?

Btw, you forget to mention that we'll be going to two different Heavens.

Respectfully,

Balzer

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maintain allegiance to essential core doctrine.

That really does not answer anything. It only implies that salvations is a condition given from God only after you prove your faith and work out your salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord.

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Hello mrmendoza,

I'm not an ev. I grew up Catholic, joined the LDS church, Became involved in the jesus movement of the 70's, left the LDS church,becamne an EV for a while, and eventually ended up in the ARE (association for research and enlightenment).

To respond to the 1st point of your question your question (whether or not you totality agree with each other) theologens have a tendency to believe theology is important just like the lds leaders have a tendency to believe that their theology ( or at least not open disagreement to it) is important. Theologens with regareds to the once saved always saved doctrine do not all agree with each other.

"what must I do to be saved?" I share your view that the altar call experience you had as a child was very real. The problem with your question is that an individual can be saved from anything. I'm going to assume you meant it in the sense commonly used by EV's (saved from hell and going to heaven). The problem with this view is that when the apostles used the term "saved", they used it in the sense of being saved from sin. Jesus used the word saved in the EV sense of the word when he was talking to the rich man, and he recommended keeping God's commandments, (the law of Moses).

"And how am I supposed to know if it works?" If you study God's law and sort out which commandments would apply to you and make a commitment to observe his law, (Do some outward thing to signify you have decided to follow his law) then you will receive the holy spirit to change you. You will know it is there. It will not necesarily stay with you if you fall back.

I guess I have a little bit of theologan in me.

I suppose that you left out having faith in Christ, as an oversight? Or as a given?

Apart from that then, in your view, we must (aside from having faith in Christ.) Learn Gods commandments, keep them, and endure to the end. Am I reading you right?

No arguement with you there!

Mike

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I am relatively new here, but I already understand the basic difference in the two belief systems on this issue, and I'm guessing you do too. So, what is the point? This post reminds me of when the LDS folks get all upset when a non-LDS comes here and lays out some sort of silly trap, the sole, ultimate and intended purpose of which is to trounce all over the person's beliefs and essentially set up the opportunity to call the LDS person stupid and tell them they are wrong.

Respectfully,

Balzer

Yeah, so?

Well not really. While I'll admit that I'm expecting some arguments along the way here, I'm also looking for some clarification of the inconsistencies that keep comming from Dl & Hoops. I'm also wanting to see if there's any real consesus among the various EVs who write on this board, other then they don't consider us real Christians.

One of the things that I would really like to know is, that for those of you who believe in OSAS, where do people like me fit in with that! If you truly believe that I was never saved in the first place, then how can anyone know if their salvation is secure?

Let me make one thing clear, all of us who consider ourselves Christians, believe and have accepted the fact that

Mosiah 3

12 ... For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now I know that many EVs make the absurd assertation that we're talking about a "different" Christ then the so-called "true" Christians believe in, but in my case, and I know of many others, we accepted Christ, long before we ever heard of Mormonisim! We did not throw away our faith in Him, we just learned more about Him then is taught elsewhere! And having learned of the Restoration, our understanding was greatly inlarged, and with that inlarged understanding, came a greater appreciation of what His glorious atoneing sacrifice has done, and will do for us!

So for those of you who believe in OSAS, what say you? If we were "saved" before we joined the LDS Church, while you might reasonably think that we've gotten off track a bit, are we still saved?

Mike

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Yeah, so?

Well not really. While I'll admit that I'm expecting some arguments along the way here, I'm also looking for some clarification of the inconsistencies that keep comming from Dl & Hoops.

Those inconsistencies are in your mind.

I'm also wanting to see if there's any real consesus among the various EVs who write on this board, other then they don't consider us real Christians.

That is incorrect. I do not consider mormonism to be consistent with Christian theology. I have no idea about you.

One of the things that I would really like to know is, that for those of you who believe in OSAS, where do people like me fit in with that!

If you were saved then, you are saved now. I have no idea whether you were or not. Only you do. However, your theology now is corrupt.

If you truly believe that I was never saved in the first place, then how can anyone know if their salvation is secure?

Let me make one thing clear, all of us who consider ourselves Christians, believe and have accepted the fact that

I have no idea.

Now I know that many EVs make the absurd assertation that we're talking about a "different" Christ then the so-called "true" Christians believe in, but in my case, and I know of many others, we accepted Christ, long before we ever heard of Mormonisim!

It is not absurd. It is accurate. You believe in the historical Jesus, not the One True God

We did not throw away our faith in Him, we just learned more about Him then is taught elsewhere! And having learned of the Restoration, our understanding was greatly inlarged, and with that inlarged understanding, came a greater appreciation of what His glorious atoneing sacrifice has done, and will do for us!

contradictory theology is not an expansion of what you knew before, it is a contradiction.

So for those of you who believe in OSAS, what say you? If we were "saved" before we joined the LDS Church, while you might reasonably think that we've gotten off track a bit, are we still saved?

If you were saved then, you are now.

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I'll have to agree with D.I. Clark. If however you are presently saved then Hebrews 6 & 10, John 15, I Corinthians 3, and I John 5 apply to you.

I would agree as well

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