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Matthew J. Tandy

Jeffrey R. Holland's Talk

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He spoke on the martydom of Joseph and Hyrum and how they did not deny their testimonies while knowing death was around the corner.

Perhaps his point wasn't that someone dying for what they believe ensures the truthfulness of those beliefs, but rather Joseph and Hyrum being willing to die for their beliefs points that they, at least, did not believe it was a fraudulent work--and if anyone knew it was fraud, you would think it would have been Joseph.

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Who are Solomon Spaulding and Ethan Smith Btw? What do they have to do with Mormonism? Where they early member who opposed the work or something?

You can read about the Ethan Smith and Solomon Spalding theories here:

FAIR Wiki: Featured Articles

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Perhaps his point wasn't that someone dying for what they believe ensures the truthfulness of those beliefs, but rather Joseph and Hyrum being willing to die for their beliefs points that they, at least, did not believe it was a fraudulent work--and if anyone knew it was fraud, you would think it would have been Joseph.

The point was not limited to a few people dieing, but thousands of people dieing for it if I recall. Millions of people all sacrificing for it, having testimonies of it, having spiritual experiences affirming the truth of it.

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Elder Holland continues to be one of my favorite speakers at General Conference. He is always clear and says it like he sees it, and I love his approach.

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Just thought I would say that, as always, Jeffrey R. Holland's talk is powerful, well thought out, insightful, etc. etc. etc. He is both a moving and a persuasive speaker, his logic excellent. Plus, I always love his topics! I do always feel the Spirit when he talks.

It's interesting how this thread has over 625 views but doesn't show anything near that on the on line meter and it was less than an hour ago.. ??? :P

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Anyone besides me enjoy Brother Burton's speech on Integrity????

:P

Yes, I did.

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I loved his talk as well. I missed the first two sessions and was worried I had passed the opportunity to hear him speak. I love his talks, especially the Tongue of Angels from April '07.

Note: Dying for one's belief does not prove its truth. Though it was a nice point.

Elder Holland did not say that it did. He said that if Joseph Smith had faked the Book of Mormon, it would be a very strange thing for him to find consolation in it during his last hours on earth.

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Wow, you don't get out much, do you? I thought everyone knew who these two gents were! Obviously they don't.

Anyway, Spaulding wrote a fictional work called "Manuscript Story" (never published) some time before the appearance of the Book of Mormon, and some folks who had heard of Spaulding's work thought that the Book of Mormon must be some plagiarized version of the work. Even though Spaulding's manuscript was eventually found and discovered to have no similarity to the Book of Mormon, some folks have continued to insist that Joseph must have been inspired by it in the production of the BoM.

Ethan Smith (no relation to Joseph) wrote something called "View of the Hebrews", published in 1823 and 1825.

Spaulding's clumsy fiction, for some odd reason, gets all the attention of the antis, where Smith's work, which actually seems to be more credibly a precursor to the BoM, seems to get none.

There may have been "something in the air" in the early 1800's, a Zeitgeist, if you will, that sparked all three works. Similar things seem to have happened at other times. The Protestant Reformation, for example, and that sudden surge in interest in genealogy that began shortly after the appearance of Elijah in the Kirtland Temple. I don't doubt that receptive souls are prepared for momentous events through the Spirit of the Lord, and some would naturally lean in odd directions, as most of us do seem to be bent in one direction or another!

Ethan Smith was also pastor of a Congregationalist church that Oliver Cowdery and his family attended from 1821 to 1826. The "something in the air" is that novels about the origins of peoples (in this case, indigenous Americans) with reference to ancient or mythic groups were common at the time.

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Elder Holland did not say that it did. He said that if Joseph Smith had faked the Book of Mormon, it would be a very strange thing for him to find consolation in it during his last hours on earth.

Ahhhh. Thanks :P

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Anyone besides me enjoy Brother Burton's speech on Integrity????

:P

was that the "ity" talk?

agility, civility, debility, docility, ductility, fertility, fragility, futility, hostility, mobility, nobility, senility, utility, virility, capability, feasibility, flexibility, legibility, possibility, probability, rehability, versatility, viability, volatility, with hostility, acceptability, adaptability, admissibility, affordability, amiability, applicability, availability, combinability, compatibility, deductibility, electability, invisibility, irritability, joint probability, latent hostility, malleability, palatability, public utility, reliability, responsibility, susceptibility, comprehensibility, inaccessibility, in all probability, irresponsibility, responsibility, hostility, capability, responsibility ...

not all the "ity" 's are nicities...

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It's interesting how this thread has over 625 views but doesn't show anything near that on the on line meter and it was less than an hour ago.. ??? :P

A huge chunk of those views are from the same people.

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A huge chunk of those views are from the same people.

JA,

I'm thinking the same thing.. But what a great try.. I have never see 143 people on line at once before.. There were a lot in here.. So, I have no idea how 952 got on the same day...August 24, wasn't a special day either.. We will get it back up there.. Thanks for all the support!

Everyone in here Rocks! :P

This is your second thread derail. Please stay on topic or stay out of the thread.

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While I am glad you restrained yourself here as compared to your "bold" words on the other message board, I think you are wrong in ten different ways, and so forth. Or do I just sense a hint of desperation in your words? :P

Whenever this board is ready for a fair fight, I will take the gloves off. Meanwhile, I will see you over at the other board for to post a criticism over here and not to answer it over there would seem to some to be an cowardly act--indeed, partaking of the very fruit you accuse me of eating. My reasons are clear, what are yours?

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William Schryver, on 04 October 2009 - 02:28 PM, said:

Angry?

Angry?

There was no anger in Elder Holland's fervent and powerful address. But it certainly consisted of "hard truths."

I know it filled my heart (as well as those of my family) with an overwhelming feeling of gratitude and reinforced testimony of the truthfulness and divine origins of the Book of Mormon.

But, to you, this Apostle's words were filled with what you characterize as "anger."

Quit preaching, that's not what this forum is for.

I suppose the words were hard on senator....

For me Holland minced no words, told it like it is, and bore his testimony as a special witness to Christ, he was simply following his calling as an apostle. Intellectually sound and straightforward with sophist arguments stripped away, it must sound disheartening to some.

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As I looked up the old General Charge given to the first apostles of this dispensation, noticed it was a two part charge. I skipped over the first charge, purposely because I did not want to deal with this yet) http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/45498-modern-day-apostles/

In summary, don't go asking for something your not ready to receive. And don't be surprised if it was not exactly what you thought you were asking for, but much better.

Just back from being there. I just witnessed, first hand, a Lion of the Lord fulfilling his calling, after I could speak again, I leaned over to my daughter, "You have just witnessed a landmark event, which will be referenced for years to come".

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Sounded like a hint of desperation in his voice. :P

No anger. No desperation. No end to the nonsense from critics.

A great talk. Right, and right on point.

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Whenever this board is ready for a fair fight, I will take the gloves off. Meanwhile, I will see you over at the other board for to post a criticism over here and not to answer it over there would seem to some to be an cowardly act--indeed, partaking of the very fruit you accuse me of eating. My reasons are clear, what are yours?

You made a couple of claims there that I'm interested in seeing if you can defend here, John. One was that if Joseph thought he was going to die he wouldn't have "packed a pistol."

In actuality the pistol was given to him by a concerned friend after Joseph had already been incarcerated. And knowing he was going to die at some point after coming to Carthage does not mean Joseph would know the precise time and manner of his death, nor does it mean he should refuse a means to defend the supportive friends who were with him at the jail.

Second, you said he would not have sent for the Nauvoo Legion if he thought he was going to die. Can you document that he sent for the legion? As I recall the events, the legion, a state-chartered militia, was never in a state of rebellion. Rather, they willingly surrendered their state-issued arms when required to do so by the Illinois governor.

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You made a couple of claims there that I'm interested in seeing if you can defend here, John. One was that if Joseph thought he was going to die he wouldn't have "packed a pistol."

In actuality the pistol was given to him by a concerned friend after Joseph had already been incarcerated. And knowing he was going to die at some point after coming to Carthage does not mean he would know the precise time and manner of his death, nor does it mean he should refuse a means to defend the supportive friends who were with him at the jail.

Second, you said would not have sent for the Nauvoo Legion if he thought he was going to die. Can you document that he sent for the legion? As I recall the events, the legion, a state-chartered militia, was never in a state of rebellion. Rather, they willingly surrendered their state-issued arms when required to do so by the Illinois governor.

Come on over to the board where I posted that and I will be happy to discuss it with you.

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Come on over to the board where I posted that and I will be happy to discuss it with you.

I don't care for the ambience there. Can you respond here to these two specific points?

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Wow, that was certainly a Crowning Moment of Awesome there (check TVTropes for reference). I really enjoyed Elder Holland's talk, and I thought it was spot on.

I often wonder, though, could we possibly get a general authority to speak at the next FAIR conference?

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Wow, that was certainly a Crowning Moment of Awesome there (check TVTropes for reference). I really enjoyed Elder Holland's talk, and I thought it was spot on.

I often wonder, though, could we possibly get a general authority to speak at the next FAIR conference?

just listened to it again. As fast as I could type this is the talk (excuse the typos / some details missing, this is the main ideals. fell free to clean it up.)

Prophecies of the last days -large scale calamities - wars, upheavals - one kind of latter day destruction that sounds more individual than collective, mere applicable inside the church than outside it. In the last days, even those of the covenant, the very elect, could be deceived by the enemy of truth. Spiritual destruction.

Another Latter day prophecy - think of the heart as the figurative center of our faith, the poetic center of our loyalties and values, and then think that in the latter days men's hearts shall fail them.

The Book of Mormon - Lord's powerful keystones - begins with a great parable of life - of hope vs. fear, salvation vs. destruction. Lehi's dream. Already difficult journey when a mist of darkness arises obsciuring any view of the safe view of the path that others are to follow. Mist of darkness descends on all the travelers, the faithful as well as the weaker ones. The sucfessful travelers resist all distractions, including the lure of forbidden paths, and the taunts. Press their way forward tenaciously that runs unfailingly along the trail.

I beheld the that rod of iron was the word of God - represents the love of God. The redeemer of the world went forth ministering to the people, sick and afflicted with all manner of diseases, and they were healed by the Lamb of God. The devil and unclean spirits were cast out. Love healing, hope - power of Christ to counter all troubles in all times including the end of times. That is the safe harbor God wants for us. That is how the BoM starts and ends. Testimony of the only true way.

Modern last days testimony. Josphe Smith and brother Hyrum to face what they knew was marterdom ? Hyrum read these words of comfort to Joseph ?thou hast been faithful, wherefore thou wilt be made strong? now I Mormoni bid farewell until we shall meet at the feet of Christ.

37 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy bweakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.

38 And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment–seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

(Book of Mormon | Ether 12:37 - 38)

Hyrum turned down the corner of the page from which he had read, marking it as the end of the everlasting testimony.

I hold in my hand that book. The very copy from which Hyrum read. The corner of the page turned down still visible. Joseph bore testimony to guards of the divine authenticity of the BoM. Shortly thereafter, they were killed.

As one of a thousand elements of the BoM I submit this as another evidence. In this their greatest hour of need, would these men blaspheme against God, by continuing to fix their honor on a book? On a church and ministry they had ficticiously created? Their wives widow, their children fatherless, footprints of blood across river/prarie ? legions die and live declaring on the 4 corners of the Earth ? disreguard all of that, and tell me, if in this hour of death, these two men would go to God with last words of the BoM on their lips. Rather die than deny the BoM.

This book has been examined and attacked, denied and deconstructed, like no other book in religious history, and still it stands. Failed theories about it's origins, have been parroted and died. Ethan Smith, Solomon Spalding, from deranged paranoid to cunning genious. None of the pathetic answers have ever withstood examination because there is no other answer than the one Joseph gave as the young unlearned translator. My Great Grandfather said no wicked man could write such a book as this, and no god man would write it, unless it were true, and they were commanded of God to do so." No one can come to faith and comfort until he/she has embraced the divinity of the BoM and Jesus of whom it testifies. If they are foolish to reject 531 pages teeming with literary and Semitic complexity without honesty attempting to account for the origin of those pages somehow, the profound impact of what is now 10?s of millions of readers? such persons have been deceived, and if they leave this church, they must do so by crawling over or under or around the BoM to make their exit.

The Book is what Christ is said to be ? a stone of stumbling, a barrier in the path of those who wish not to believe in this work. Witnesses testified to their death that they had seen an angle, and handled the plates. They have been shown to us by the power of God and not of man, therefore we know of assuredly that these words are true.

I did not sail with the brother of Jared in the crossing the ocean, did not hear King Benjamin speak his angelic sermon, did not proselyte with Alma and Amulek, nor witness the fiery deaths of innocent believers, was not among the Nephite crowd who touched the wounds of the resurrected Lord, nor weep with Mormon and Moroni over the destruction of an entire civilization. But my testimony of this record and the peace it brings to the human heart is as binding and unequivocal as theirs. Like them I give my name unto the world to witness unto the world that that which I have seen and like them I lie not, God bearing witness of it. Iask that my testimony of the BoM given today be recorded by angels on Earth and in heaven, I want it absolutely clear, when I stand before the judgement bar of God, I declared to the world that the BoM is true, that it came forth the say Joseph said it came forth, and was given to give hope to those of the last days.

Harken unto these words and believe in Christ. If you believe in Christ ye shall believe these words, for they are the words of Christ, and they teach all men that they should do good. Christ will show you with power and great glory that they are his words at the last days.

BoM safety for the soul.

Whoso treasures up my words shall not be deceived. In the last days neither your heart nor your faith will fail you.

Followed by several loud AMENs!!!

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I don't care for the ambience there. Can you respond here to these two specific points?

But you will go there to mine content. It's okay. I didn't think you would go over there.

If I had posted said comment here, you would be right to ask me to explain. But as it is, you should go over there if you want to discuss the issue.

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Last night, President Monson didn't seem to have a high opinion of any type of anger.

Righteous indignation isn't a "type" of anger, nor is passion, nor is conviction, nor is intensity, nor is zeal, nor is animation.

Try again.

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Righteous indignation isn't a "type" of anger, nor is passion, nor is conviction, nor is intensity, nor is zeal, nor is animation.

Try again.

So you are saying he was indignant? Interesting.

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Perhaps the best talk of the entire Conference. It was everything that burns in my heart and I felt like Alma when he said he wished he had the voice of an angel to shake the earth! Amen and Amen to what Elder Holland said! For those who think the apostles and prophets of our day are too "milktoast" or timid I point to Elder Hollands bold and heartfelt talk filled with the spirit. One that can make the Saints cheer for joy and make the demons from hell howl and all hell boil over! The predictable responses here are only a pale reflection of the power of the spirit that broke through into the hearts of the righteous during that wonderful talk. :P

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