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Montgomery Price

The Problem of Salvation

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That's why it's called a "test". They rarely come with the answers already given.

Tests also rarely begin with your memory being erased.

It also helps when it's apparent there even is a test.

No wonder the failure rate is so high.

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Ok. I'm back. Again, I have replies for all of you, and I'm setting aside a good part of the day to respond to all of you, and post a new thread, maybe two if I get really in to this.

So, I'll start with the oldest replies and move forward.

and as a reminder to mfbukowski... There are two posts of mine directed to you that I believe you have not responded to yet.

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If they didn't understand it then isn't a perfect knowledge, so your premise is once again false.

You also give people way to much credit that if some one chose to reject perfect knoweledge "then they did not understand the perfect knowledge and why they should have it".

People reject things all of the time. Some might even claim to have a perfect knowledge in something and still reject it because they have an agenda. This is obvious.

I think you've misunderstood me. I did make a jumbled mess of my circular argument, quite the ironic mistake... but I think I can make it a bit clearer.

This is what CV75 said,

Alma 32 shows that "perfect knowledge" is gained only by first exercising faith, and continuing in the "faith-to-knowledge-to more faith-to-more knowledge" spiral. Much like what was culminated by the mutually compounding influence of faith and knowledge upon each other in Ether 3 (see verses 19 & 20).

Moroni 7:15-17 talks about the role of our conscience in gaining "perfect knowledge" as we heed it. 2 Nephi 9:14 talks about our "perfect knowledge" in terms of correctly understanding our salvation only after understanding our guilt. So choice has everything to do with how perfect our knowledge becomes.

and my argument was basically this.

1. Someone rejects the opportunity for perfect knowledge. No one will reject the opportunity for perfect knowledge unless they are confused, ignorant, or deceived as to what perfect knowledge is, and how it is infinitely more beneficial to them.

2. That person rejected the opportunity, because they did not have faith and understanding. When someone is confused, ignorant, or deceived, they do not understand the opportunity, or perfect knowledge. Therefore, they are not capable of faith, because they don't understand the object of their faith.

3. Someone does not understand perfect knowledge, because they "1. rejected the opportunity for perfect knowledge". Refer back to #1 to continue the cycle.

This is the circle.

The fact is, someone will only reject perfect knowledge if they don't understand it.

So, once a person has consistent faith, they will have a straight shot to perfect knowledge. But, if they do not have faith, then they lack the knowledge they need to understand that they should.

So, the choice that CV75 said " has everything to do with how perfect our knowledge becomes" is a choice that is only wrong when the person is confused, ignorant, or deceived.

This means that every person that never attains perfect knowledge is confused, ignorant, or deceived which are not qualities they should suffer from, because the person is unaware of their existence in this matter. This is why I think it is unfair.

If someone has perfect knowledge, then they have all the pros + cons, and can make the obvious choice of following Christ to the celestial kingdom. Because this is the choice that is the most beneficial to every being. Anyone who does not make this choice, does not see the benefits. So, on to further evaluation.

How do you break this spell of confusion, ignorance, and deception? How is this made fair?

Well, since the person is unaware of, or persisting in this confusion, this person can not eradicate the spell himself. The spell must be broken by external influences (outside the power of the individual in question), as does every case of confusion, ignorance, and deception.

So, if external influences are that which aids a person to salvation, is this not cheating carried out by the external influence? Is it not cheating the system to help someone out of a bind, when they can't do it themselves?

If one is allowed to cheat, and others are not (because not everyone will attain perfect knowledge), who decides who gets to cheat and who doesn't?

Doesn't this rig the entire test of salvation?

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Everyone will eventually know that Christ is who He claimed to be almost two thousand years ago. Listen to Alma: Mosiah 27: 31

31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.

This is not saying that all will accept Christ and repent before the judgment, but all will definitely do so when they are brought to the judgment seat. And not all will merit the Celestial Kingdom. But everyone will get what they deserve. However, to me, the concept of three degrees of glory or three kingdoms and hell is much better than just heaven or hell.

Glenn

Refer to the last post I made to Mola Ram Suda Ram.

To use your own words for basically the same argument, the post is something like this:

Whoever does not abide the law of the celestial kingdom, has not truly accepted Christ, because if he had, he would choose to abide by the law of the celestial kingdom, because this choice is infinitely better than any choice less. If someone truly knows God, they choose no less than celestial glory, unless they're confused, ignorant, or deceived.

So, if someone "shall confess that he is God", does that person truly know that he is God? I believe that to truly confess he is God is to truly understand that he is God, and why you should follow him. Because how can you truly confess that he is God if you don't truly understand him?

Also, isn't this a violation of free-will if everyone will eventually confess?

If it's still a choice, then what are the prerequisites for this choice? Understanding of God? Understanding of what God wants? Understanding that the best choice is to follow God?

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Not so: D&C 93: 31 reads, "Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light." This is a key to the root of your questions.

People do reject their own knowledge; sometimes this is called "denial" but there are many other dynamics that can contribute to their willingly not receiving the light.

If a "plain manifestation" is not sufficient for some to receive the light, then why not manifest it a bit more clearly? How about perfectly?

If it was a perfect manifestation, not one would reject it, because they would completely understand that to follow the path to celestial glory is infinitely more beneficial than the other choices, and would not deny, but choose to accept.

Anyone that does not receive the light, did not understand what was "plainly manifest", otherwise they would have received the light.

In fact, "manifest" is defined as "to prove; put beyond doubt or question", or "to make clear or evident to the eye or the understanding; show plainly".

So, if it is "manifest" then how can a person doubt it, or not understand it? Because this is a contradiction of what has been manifested.

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I did. You are not getting it. The whole point is that not everyone wants to do the work that it will take to achieve the CK. Suppose I gave everyone a million dollars. Some would retire and have tail-gate parties the rest of their lives.

Some would take that million dollars and invest it in a business, work their butts off and turn it into 5, 10 or a hundred million.

Accepting Christ gives you a million spiritual dollars. Those who want the tail gate parties for eternity get the telestial K and those who want to work a little bit get the terestrial kingdom

Celestial is for the Donald Trumps and Bill Gates.

Now I suppose you will think I am saying you have to be rich to make it into the celestial kingdom! :P

With all due respect, I suggest that you drop the arrogant attitude and just read what people are telling you! Not everyone wants to work hard enough to reach celestial glory, when even the telestial kingdom will be beyond your wildest imaginings.

You seem to make celestial glory this place you only get to if you're greedy, and only want it for your own satisfaction. You make obtaining the highest glory superficial. I know this is probably what you don't mean, and I wouldn't suppose what you think I would suppose, but there are some other problems as well.

Why would someone not work for Celestial glory?

Here's the post you missed:

I don't think it would matter if it is easy or not, only if it is possible. Which I think it would be. But I'm still getting in to this stuff... But, I do have something to say about your views on perfect knowledge.

If someone had a perfect knowledge, they would not follow Satan. They will know that following Satan will lead to sadness and destruction, and will only lead to sadness and destruction. To think anything different is a deception, confusion, or ignorance, and therefore, not a perfect knowledge. I think it's very clear that you can not "gain" from following an evil path.

Especially concerning the after-life, if you have perfect knowledge you know that an deliberately evil path is infinitely less desirable than a good path. And, a good path is infinitely more beneficial than the evil one. Anyone who chooses the evil path does not understand why it's evil and will lead to sadness and regret.

The point is, if anyone understands the celestial kingdom, then they will work their butts off. I am absolutely sure of it. There is no doubt about it.

Because if you understand that the celestial kingdom is infinitely better than any other choice, there is no amount of finite labor that will sway your answer. Your analogy is flawed.

The one million spiritual dollars has the potential to become an infinite amount of spiritual dollars.

This infinite amount can be attained in a finite amount of time, which means that after you attain the infinite, the finite does not matter.

Once a person understands this, everyone will "work their butts off".

Here's another way of saying it.

If I have two choices that I can work for:

1. Normal Reward

2. Infinitely better reward.

And these are the amounts of work I can use to attain each:

1. Finite amount.

2. A greater finite amount.

So, putting the two together (notice that I do not include "greater" in choice 2, because a variance in finite does not affect the infinite):

1. Finite effort for finite reward.

2. Finite effort for infinite reward.

Choice 2 is always the best choice.

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What world do you live in? We don't always pick what's most benificial to us! We pick what we want now! As often as not we just hope that our choices aren't too detrimental to us!

This is not what I meant.

The celestial kingdom is infinitely more beneficial than the other kingdoms.

A person only chooses what they understand to be most beneficial to them. In other words, a person will only choose not to attain celestial glory because they do not understand that it's benefits are infinitely better than any other choice.

So, in a sense, you are right. They don't pick to what's most beneficial because they do not understand what is most beneficial.

So, how do you attain understanding so that you may make the right choice?

Well that does seem to make since.

Did you mean sense? Well, I think I explained it above, and also in my last reply to mfbukowski.

As I've always understood it, 'That's the hell of it!'

So, why would someone ever choose to experience the "hell of it", unless they were confused, ignorant, or deceived?

As I said before, man isn't always reasonable, nor does he always do what makes sense!

The fact is that as Lightbearer has indicated, there's nothing in the scripture that would indicate that we can cross from a lower kingdom to a higher, unless we came from the higher kingdom just to visit someone in the lower kingdom!

While there's a lot of wishfull thinking on this subject, it's still all speculation. Again just because people in the spirit prison acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savour, remember what the scripture says;

So, does everyone not have the reasoning capability to understand this? If they don't, this makes the plan of salvation unfair for those who do not have the correct reasoning skills.

I think you take too much on yourself for your reasoning!

Mike

It's my favorite activity almost.

How do you or anyone else know what anyone else is capable of attaining? I think that as much as we like to think that we're all as capable everyone else, that's not really how it is! How do God become God of all the other host but by being more capable?

Also eternal progression is not guarenteed to those who didn't make it to the CK. See this;

Doesn't everyone have a fair chance at the highest of salvation? Meaning, everyone is capable?

That sounds pretty permanent to me! But even so:

What part of these scriptures tell me that no one will stay in hell forever?

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The celestial kingdom is infinitely more beneficial than the other kingdoms.

Agreed.

A person only chooses what they understand to be most beneficial to them. In other words, a person will only choose not to attain celestial glory because they do not understand that it's benefits are infinitely better than any other choice.

So, in a sense, you are right. They don't pick to what's most beneficial because they do not understand what is most beneficial.

So, how do you attain understanding so that you may make the right choice?

You seem to think that ultimatly, we are all equal. I don't think that that's true! While it can be said that we are each given a fair opertunity, I don't see that that means that we all have the same abilities, even in eternity! We were allowed the privilage of coming to earth to gain a body, as a reward for being on Gods side in the war in heaven, and we all have the same basic laws to obey here on earth, both inas much as we are still after all who we are, we're not ever all going to have the same abilities. No matter how much we understand, we're just not going to be able to achieve it. That's one reason that even the telestial kingdom is a kingdom of reward, even if it is the least that God can do for us when we are not able to achieve a higher level.

I have to go someplace right now so I'll try to get back to the rest of your questions later.

Mike

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Hi MP,

Below is another Mormon scripture that I do not think anyone has quoted. The other ones I saw quoted were also very good ones.

One must understand that God did not create any of us out of nothing: we have an eternal intelligence in us. God gives this intelligence a spirit body, then a mortal physical body, and finally a resurrected physical body for eternity.

This resurrection is based on the law these eternal beings choose to live by. I sincerely believe that when we understand ourselves and others better, this plan of salvation will make perfect sense; and we will be grateful to God for this plan.

If God had created us "out of nothing" surely He would ultimately be responsible for what he created out of nothing, would He not? Saying that He "gives us free agency" does not change anything, because He could take that into account when He created us: He would still be responsible.

It is no more strange that people will choose to live by a telestial, or a terrestrial or a celestial law as it is that people choose to live by different principles and laws in this world. Some are vicious crooks with little consistency, others are extremely discipled and developed. It is completely consistent.

The only inconsistent idea is the false creedial idea that God created us all out of nothing: "so why should we not all be be the same"?

Richard

I would still contend that this idea is inconsistent as well.

Someone will only choose not to abide the law of the celestial kingdom if they are confused, ignorant, or deceived.

So...

"How do you break this spell of confusion, ignorance, and deception? How is this made fair?

Well, since the person is unaware of, or persisting in this confusion, this person can not eradicate the spell himself. The spell must be broken by external influences (outside the power of the individual in question), as does every case of confusion, ignorance, and deception.

So, if external influences are that which aids a person to salvation, is this not cheating carried out by the external influence? Is it not cheating the system to help someone out of a bind, when they can't do it themselves?

If one is allowed to cheat, and others are not (because not everyone will attain perfect knowledge), who decides who gets to cheat and who doesn't?

Doesn't this rig the entire test of salvation?"

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Agreed.

You seem to think that ultimatly, we are all equal. I don't think that that's true! While it can be said that we are each given a fair opertunity, I don't see that that means that we all have the same abilities, even in eternity! We were allowed the privilage of coming to earth to gain a body, as a reward for being on Gods side in the war in heaven, and we all have the same basic laws to obey here on earth, both inas much as we are still after all who we are, we're not ever all going to have the same abilities. No matter how much we understand, we're just not going to be able to achieve it. That's one reason that even the telestial kingdom is a kingdom of reward, even if it is the least that God can do for us when we are not able to achieve a higher level.

I have to go someplace right now so I'll try to get back to the rest of your questions later.

Mike

We are not all equal? Is there scriptural support for this?

If it has already been determined that some would not be able to finish the test, then doesn't this make the opprotunity, as it is, unfair, because God knew that some would be capable? Why would God make a bar, and purposefully raise it above some of the children who accepted him in the premortal existence? This is unfair.

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and my argument was basically this.

Kind of like a "yes I am" / "no you're not" dialogue. It really does happen!

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Because this is a contradiction of what has been manifested.

Kind of like a "yes I am" / "no you're not" dialogue. It really does happen!

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We are not all equal? Is there scriptural support for this?

If it has already been determined that some would not be able to finish the test, then doesn't this make the opprotunity, as it is, unfair, because God knew that some would be capable? Why would God make a bar, and purposefully raise it above some of the children who accepted him in the premortal existence? This is unfair.

First off, we need to understand, that almost everything we've been talking about here, is highly speculative!

I don't have any particular scriptures other then the ones found in D&C 76, but I don't see anything in them to justify your position either. My understanding has always been that you cannot "move up" from a lower kingdom to a higher one , and that's what constitutes the hell of it. That you blew your chance for exaltation because you couldn't do right for the very finite time you were here in mortality! Especially from the telestial kingdom!(See my other post)

Remember that Paul said that things on earth are a shadow of things in heaven. I believe that just as we are born in this country (America) equal under the law, we are by no means equal in abilities! I'm inclined to believe that is the same with our spirits!

God didn't put us here to prove ourselves to Him, He knows us better then we can know ourselves. It is not unfair that he knows that we're not all going to make it to exaltation, but we would have considered it unfair if He hadn't given us a chance! We had to prove it to ourselves what we are capable of, and then in the final judgement we will be able to say "Thy ways are just O God" because He gave us all the same chance, and we didn't measure up!

Again it's my understanding, that in the eternal nature of things we will be better suited for what ever kingdom we find ourselves in and be happier then if we were in a higher plain!

Did you mean sense? Yes!

So, why would someone ever choose to experience the "hell of it", unless they were confused, ignorant, or deceived?

I guess becaus they are confused, ignorant, and decieved!

What part of these scriptures tell me that no one will stay in hell forever?

I don't know, you tell me.

Mike

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First off, we need to understand, that almost everything we've been talking about here, is highly speculative!

I don't have any particular scriptures other then the ones found in D&C 76, but I don't see anything in them to justify your position either. My understanding has always been that you cannot "move up" from a lower kingdom to a higher one , and that's what constitutes the hell of it. That you blew your chance for exaltation because you couldn't do right for the very finite time you were here in mortality! Especially from the telestial kingdom!(See my other post)

Remember that Paul said that things on earth are a shadow of things in heaven. I believe that just as we are born in this country (America) equal under the law, we are by no means equal in abilities! I'm inclined to believe that is the same with our spirits!

God didn't put us here to prove ourselves to Him, He knows us better then we can know ourselves. It is not unfair that he knows that we're not all going to make it to exaltation, but we would have considered it unfair if He hadn't given us a chance! We had to prove it to ourselves what we are capable of, and then in the final judgement we will be able to say "Thy ways are just O God" because He gave us all the same chance, and we didn't measure up!

Again it's my understanding, that in the eternal nature of things we will be better suited for what ever kingdom we find ourselves in and be happier then if we were in a higher plain!

Well, my position is that all the speculations end in logical inconsistencies. So, I believe my position, as of now, is supported. So, either I've done something wrong (which I'm debating with all of you), or there are possibilities yet unknown to me.

But, it's still unfair.

"It is not unfair that he knows that we're not all going to make it to exaltation, but we would have considered it unfair if He hadn't given us a chance!"

Well, we should still consider it unfair because God gave us a chance he knew we wouldn't be able to accomplish. So, the "just" chance he gives is not a just chance at all... It's a chance only meant for certain people to accomplish.

So, if I am one of those people doomed to never "measure up", then I'll say the test was rigged against me, because God already knew I was incapable.

I guess becaus they are confused, ignorant, and decieved!

How do you break this spell of confusion, ignorance, and deception? How is this made fair?

Well, since the person is unaware of, or persisting in this confusion, this person can not eradicate the spell himself. The spell must be broken by external influences (outside the power of the individual in question), as does every case of confusion, ignorance, and deception.

So, if external influences are that which aids a person to salvation, is this not cheating carried out by the external influence? Is it not cheating the system to help someone out of a bind, when they can't do it themselves?

If one is allowed to cheat, and others are not (because not everyone will attain perfect knowledge), who decides who gets to cheat and who doesn't?

Doesn't this rig the entire test of salvation?

I don't know, you tell me.

I'm not saying it does, but... you really don't know? What if some people die and do stay in hell forever? It says till the end of times.

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Eternal Progression is very flawed. . . . If the eternal progression ensures that the same reward will be given to each man, and true knowledge ensures that every man is willing... then any action on earth is completely irrelevant and has no bearing what so ever on infinite time-span of your ultimate reward.

Eternal Progression opens up a whole new world of problems.

"Eternal progression" begins with the pre-existence. We had our agency there, and some of us made better choices than others.

The following from Bruce R. McConkie may also be helpful: ". . .eternal progression is enjoyed only by those who received exaltation. Exalted persons gain the fulness of the Father; they have all power and knowledge, and all wisdom; they gain a fulness of truth, becoming one with the Father. All other persons are assigned lesser places in the mansions that are prepared, and their progression is not eternal and unlimited but in a specified sphere [underlining added]." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 239)

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"Eternal progression" begins with the pre-existence. We had our agency there, and some of us made better choices than others.

The following from Bruce R. McConkie may also be helpful: ". . .eternal progression is enjoyed only by those who received exaltation. Exalted persons gain the fulness of the Father; they have all power and knowledge, and all wisdom; they gain a fulness of truth, becoming one with the Father. All other persons are assigned lesser places in the mansions that are prepared, and their progression is not eternal and unlimited but in a specified sphere [underlining added]." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 239)

Thank you, but, I am aware of this, and have been discussing it for the entirety of this thread. If you wish to comment on the rest of my posts, feel free.

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Montgomery Price,

Speculation aside, the doctrine of Christainity is that all will eventually be given the same opportunity to accept or reject the gospel in the same fair terms.

Now to speculate-

I do not believe in different degrees of salvation. Either a person is saved from hell or he is not. If he is saved, he is given the same opportunity within Gods kingdom to forever progress just as anyone else. I do not subscribe to a multiple world salvation model even though I am an active LDS member. I believe that after the millennium only one world, one kingdom of heaven exists and that all that are saved walk in the light of it and belong to the city (St. Johns book of Revelations).

In the temple the plan of salvation is expounded for our understanding. It is the most current doctrine explaining the plan of salvation. The temple does not teach that man is stopped eternally in either the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms. The temple teaches that man progresses through each kingdom as part of his progression to the celestial. That much is official doctrine. Now of coarse there are speculative doctrines about the kingdoms within the church- even some that is "official" doctrine. We must however take the latest and current doctrine to be "official", and that itself is found within the temple.

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....and as a reminder to mfbukowski... There are two posts of mine directed to you that I believe you have not responded to yet.

I assumed that accepting Christ was also accepting that his path is the correct path. What I have apparently falsely assumed is that you can accept Christ and not follow his plan he wishes for you to accept. Accepting is only acknowledging, and then denying a perfect plan.... So, I still don't understand why someone would reject ultimate exaltation.

Read the post I just made before this one.

I think this was one of the posts you said I did not respond to.

I didn't understand it. It makes no sense to me. Accepting Christ is the first step to exaltation. There are many more to go. Have you ever ridden a hundred miles on a bike? It is very rewarding.

But there are a hundred reasons for not attaining the goal. The commandment is "be ye therefore perfect". Of course you have an eternity to do so, but it is still a rather tall order. Most cannot even be perfect where it is relatively easy-- like in paying tithing for example. All it takes is to live on 90% of your income.

Yet how many do it?

I don't think it would matter if it is easy or not, only if it is possible. Which I think it would be. But I'm still getting in to this stuff... But, I do have something to say about your views on perfect knowledge.

If someone had a perfect knowledge, they would not follow Satan. They will know that following Satan will lead to sadness and destruction, and will only lead to sadness and destruction. To think anything different is a deception, confusion, or ignorance, and therefore, not a perfect knowledge. I think it's very clear that you can not "gain" from following an evil path.

Especially concerning the after-life, if you have perfect knowledge you know that an deliberately evil path is infinitely less desirable than a good path. And, a good path is infinitely more beneficial than the evil one. Anyone who chooses the evil path does not understand why it's evil and will lead to sadness and regret.

I don't see this at all. There is a difference between knowing that Jesus is the Christ and knowing other details about the plan of salvation.

It is like saying that if you have a perfect knowledge of algebra, you also have a perfect knowledge of the paintings of Vincent Van Gogh.

The doctrine is that those who followed Satan ("a third of the hosts of heaven") did not receive bodies and so learned very little about being human, about happiness, about good and evil, and even the plan of salvation itself. The only thing the DID know was that they thought Satan was right, and that it was better that everyone be "saved" than we have agency.

If you are "just getting into this stuff" maybe you should study it a while before you start assuming it is incorrect. You will have much more credibility with good arguments.

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uh. can you explain?

God says, "Yes, I AM" and some people respond, "No, you're not." This is how the light is plainly manifest, yet not received by everyone ( 1 ). This is how the darkness comprehendeth not the light ( 2 ). This is a choice we make ( 1 ). No one is getting in the way by not making the light plainly manifest in the first place; God does not hide this fundamental light from some and reveal it to others; He does not do a poor job of manifesting Himself ( 3 ). The more you drill down into it, the more evident it becomes that the light is made manifest in many ways at many times and at many junctures all along the way in the plan of salvation ( 4 ). You can receive as much as you want to ( 5 ).

( 1 ) D&C 93: verses 5 and 31 (as well as those in-between).

( 2 ) D&C 88: 49, 67; D&C 6: 21; D&C 10: 58; D&C 34: 2; D&C 39: 2; D&C 45: 7.

( 3 ) D&C 88: 6-18 (especially verse 11).

( 4 ) D&C 88: 42-68 (many key verses in here, some also cited in #2 above).

( 5 ) D&C 88: 32

The next step is to ponder these scriptures with your questions in mind and see what you experience. You might as well read both sections in their entirety.

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There is no second chance to be saved after death. If a person does not believe here and now they will not get a second chance when after death. Heb 9:27

7 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

NASU

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There is no second chance to be saved after death. If a person does not believe here and now they will not get a second chance when after death. Heb 9:27

7 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

NASU

I agree, but I have two questions. Can a person be damned in ignorance? Can a person be saved in ignorance?

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I agree, but I have two questions. Can a person be damned in ignorance? Can a person be saved in ignorance?

Do you really want to agree with that?

Why did Christ preach in spirit prison? Why do we do work for the dead?

Maybe you were just drawing him out--

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Do you really want to agree with that?

Why did Christ preach in spirit prison? Why do we do work for the dead?

Maybe you were just drawing him out--

Well actually no I do not agree with waht the person is trying to force on the scriptures. I do agree that there are no 2nd chances, if one has add the oppertunity (what ever that is) and rejects it they wont get a 2nd chance in the next life, that is what I was agreeing to.

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There is no second chance to be saved after death. If a person does not believe here and now they will not get a second chance when after death. Heb 9:27

7 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

NASU

Except for Jesus! He died a second time, that is how we know that He doesn't have a body of flesh and bones because He left it behind somewhere and is now just a spirit. Sarcasm /off

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