The Problem of Salvation

[mrmendoza]

Every man will be willing to progress. After a perfect knowledge of Christ has been obtained, then there will be none who do not progress. Do you wish to dispute this? What reasons does a man who has died and been taught in spirit prison or spirit heaven to not progress to infinite reward? Is there any conceivable reason why someone would choose infinite suffering over infinite reward? There is not. I make no illogical leap. You need to realize that when eternal reward is offered, any finite set-back is completely irrelevant. Finite time does not matter after you have attained the infinite.

Infinite will always be greater than finite. The choice of infinity will always be placed higher than the finite. Happiness will always be greater than suffering.

You're making an assumption that may not be so. You say that every man will be willing to progress. While I think that every man should be willing to progress, I don't think that that's really the case! While knowledge may give man reason to do something, man is not always reasonable. That, I believe is why we have the Terestial, and Telestial kingdoms! Not everyone on earth wants to be the CEO of a major corporation, many, if not most, of us just want to get by with a few luxuries, and enough to tied us over the rough spots. We don't have the drive to do what it takes to be a CEO, nor do we all feel that all the agravation and responsibility that goes with it is worth it to us. I believe that the same will be true of those in the spirit world. While they will all eventually agknowledge Christ as Lord and Savior, they will choose not do what it takes to reach the ultimate exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom!

You seem to be basing your views on the idea that all men will just automaticaly seek exaltation just because they know that it might be avalable, and that's just not the case! While I would sure like to make the money of a major corp CEO, if I'm not willing to work for it I'm not going to get it! So it is, I believe, with the spirits in prison!

Mike

[mfbukowski]

Then why are some given access to the celestial kingdom, which is infinitely more rewarding than the lesser kingdoms... if everyone will accept in light of full knowledge?

If everyone accepts, and everyone is given utmost salvation... then there is no reason to have empty telestial and terrestrial kingdoms. So, why is this not the case?

If you work hard in college you will get all "A's" and graduate magna cum laude and go to graduate school and then.... and then..... etc

Why do some goof off and flunk out?

Same answer. Some just don't care to put in the effort and sacrifice required to get there. "Good enough" is just "good enough". Who needs a mansion when a 3 bedroom with a pool will do?

[mfbukowski]

Then why do those people suffer needlessly, if they will all be judged with the same knowledge and standards as "the living who heard it"?

Why would anyone every not choose Christ if they were presented with every pro for accepting Christ? I contest that there are no cons to even consider if you were presented with a full and unbiased choice.

So, what cons are there for accepting Christ?

If there are none, and someone still rejects Christ, do they truly know Christ? Hasn't everyone already accepted Christ a first time in the premortal existence?

You keep acting as if "accepting Christ" is what gets you into the celestial kingdom, which is not the case.

Accepting Christ is step 1 of the progression. One must do much much more to attain the CK, and not everyone is willing to do what is required. where much is given, much is expected.

[Lightbearer]

So, you don't believe in eternal progression form one kingdom to the next?

Absolutely not. There is no progression between kingdoms, at least for the Telestial as quoted here:

(D&C 76:112) "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

It is also inferred about the Terrestrial as well:

(D&C 76:78-79) "Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun. These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God."

I find your beliefs refreshing, although I feel as if I'm getting mixed messages from everyone here on the board.

I cannot speak for anyone else on this board, but I believe I am expressing correct LDS doctrine. Any ideas that there is progression between kingdoms is highly speculative and in view of the above scriptures I believe I am correct.

But, another question...

I can see that it is possible that the sons of perdition may have rejected Christ AND had a perfect knowledge of him. But, I remain skeptical as to their knowledge of Christ. Where is the evidence for the claim that those who rejected Christ in the premortal existence had a perfect knowledge of good and evil, and Christ?

As for the sons of perdition the following is mentioned in the vision:

(D&C 76:25-38) "And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son, And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him?he was Lucifer, a son of the morning. And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning! And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ? Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about. And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us: Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power? They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come? Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels? And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath."

Thus they reject Christ after having received the Holy Ghost thus they must have been members of His Church to do so.

Why would anyone, with a perfect knowledge of Christ, reject him?

This has been a question for which I have no answer, it is unthinkable for me as well. Yet I think a clue may be in how the first son of perdition became such, Lucifer was lifted up in pride and wanted to usurp the power of God and to institute a plan that could not save the rest of the Father's children but primarily who exalt himself over all the other sons and daughters of God. Perhaps it was his motivation? Cain the first murderer and first son of perdition (in this life) wanted his brother (Able)'s flocks... also he "loved Satan more than he loved God" so it seems to be a defect of character that leads one to commit the unpardonable sin.

[CV75]

Will everyone eventually obtain a perfect knowledge of Christ and all of his "pros" + "cons"?

No (see D&C 93:31, and the rest of that section is very enlightening as well). They are/will be given the perfect opportunity to receive the light, but not all will accept it or accept it completely (see D&C 88:32 , and the rest of that section is very enlightening as well).

[mfbukowski]

No (see D&C 93:31, and the rest of that section is very enlightening as well). They are/will be given the perfect opportunity to receive the light, but not all will accept it or accept it completely (see D&C 88:32 , and the rest of that section is very enlightening as well).

I agree, and also agree with lightbearer that progression between kingdoms is highly speculative and non-scriptural.

I don't think one gains a "perfect knowledge" of Christ in the spirit world- I think the spirit world is pretty much as it is here, as stated by Joseph Smith but obviously those there at least know perfectly that there IS an afterlife. If it were easy to obtain a perfect knowledge there, there would be no need for missionaries there, which is one of our beliefs.

And why would one reject Christ after having a perfect knowledge? Because perhaps they want to follow satan instead. It is hard to think like a serial killer who kills for the joy of it, but I think perhaps those are those who are perverse enough with enough knowledge of the plan who might qualify.

Perhaps some of the dictators and mass murderers of the last century and their cronies who were once christian but deliberately chose evil were in this category-- we will not know in this life.

Anyway, no one said there would be a lot of people who "make it" to the level of a son of perdition, but there will be some. Scripturally, we know that Cain is one, but we don't know about the others. It is said of him that he worshiped satan to "get gain". Because we have no way of knowing what kind of religious experiences others have unless they tell us, we don't know. Suppose some of these people had visions of the savior etc, but turned away-- we would never know.

[CV75]

I don't think one gains a "perfect knowledge" of Christ in the spirit world

Alma 32 shows that "perfect knowledge" is gained only by first exercising faith, and continuing in the "faith-to-knowledge-to more faith-to-more knowledge" spiral. Much like what was culminated by the mutually compounding influence of faith and knowledge upon each other in Ether 3 (see verses 19 & 20).

Moroni 7:15-17 talks about the role of our conscience in gaining "perfect knowledge" as we heed it. 2 Nephi 9:14 talks about our "perfect knowledge" in terms of correctly understanding our salvation only after understanding our guilt. So choice has everything to do with how perfect our knowledge becomes.

[Montgomery Price]

You're making an assumption that may not be so. You say that every man will be willing to progress. While I think that every man should be willing to progress, I don't think that that's really the case! While knowledge may give man reason to do something, man is not always reasonable. That, I believe is why we have the Terestial, and Telestial kingdoms! Not everyone on earth wants to be the CEO of a major corporation, many, if not most, of us just want to get by with a few luxuries, and enough to tied us over the rough spots. We don't have the drive to do what it takes to be a CEO, nor do we all feel that all the aggravation and responsibility that goes with it is worth it to us. I believe that the same will be true of those in the spirit world. While they will all eventually agknowledge Christ as Lord and Savior, they will choose not do what it takes to reach the ultimate exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom!

You seem to be basing your views on the idea that all men will just automaticaly seek exaltation just because they know that it might be avalable, and that's just not the case! While I would sure like to make the money of a major corp CEO, if I'm not willing to work for it I'm not going to get it! So it is, I believe, with the spirits in prison!

Mike

When we make choices, we always pick what is most beneficial to us.

To have celestial glory is infinitely more rewarding than the lesser kingdoms, and is therefore the most obvious choice.

What will you think of all those in the celestial kingdom who dwell in the presence of God, when you're in a lesser kingdom? How will you feel knowing that you could never have it, and it would have been worth it if you had?

There's no reason not to. You associate lots of negative emotions with attaining ultimate exaltation:

rough spots\don't have the drive\aggravation\responsibility\not willing to work for it

Can you even experience these things after you attain ultimate exaltation? You become like God, so does God deal with having to "work", does he have to go through "rough spots", is he aggravated with his responsibility? How could such negative things be associated with the utmost of pure and good accomplishment?

I don't think so. I would presume no downside to the celestial kingdom whatsoever.

It is also true, that after you attain infinite celestial glory, it doesn't matter how much you worked before because that is only finite labor.

If someone understands the plan of salvation, they understand this. A finite amount of work, for an infinite amount of reward is always worth it.

[Montgomery Price]

You keep acting as if "accepting Christ" is what gets you into the celestial kingdom, which is not the case.

Accepting Christ is step 1 of the progression. One must do much much more to attain the CK, and not everyone is willing to do what is required. where much is given, much is expected.

I assumed that accepting Christ was also accepting that his path is the correct path. What I have apparently falsely assumed is that you can accept Christ and not follow his plan he wishes for you to accept. Accepting is only acknowledging, and then denying a perfect plan.... So, I still don't understand why someone would reject ultimate exaltation.

Read the post I just made before this one.

[Montgomery Price]

No (see D&C 93:31, and the rest of that section is very enlightening as well). They are/will be given the perfect opportunity to receive the light, but not all will accept it or accept it completely (see D&C 88:32 , and the rest of that section is very enlightening as well).

If not everyone will receive all the "pros" + "cons" then there are a certain number of people who will have a choice to make on insufficient -or possibly incorrect- information. I am still contesting that a choice made with all the "pros" + "cons" ends up in following Christ to the Celestial Kingdom, always.

Also, I read your scripture references, and I'm going to ask if you'd be so kind to interpret them and how exactly it says what you've just told me.

I agree, and also agree with lightbearer that progression between kingdoms is highly speculative and non-scriptural.

I don't think one gains a "perfect knowledge" of Christ in the spirit world- I think the spirit world is pretty much as it is here, as stated by Joseph Smith but obviously those there at least know perfectly that there IS an afterlife. If it were easy to obtain a perfect knowledge there, there would be no need for missionaries there, which is one of our beliefs.

And why would one reject Christ after having a perfect knowledge? Because perhaps they want to follow satan instead. It is hard to think like a serial killer who kills for the joy of it, but I think perhaps those are those who are perverse enough with enough knowledge of the plan who might qualify.

Perhaps some of the dictators and mass murderers of the last century and their cronies who were once christian but deliberately chose evil were in this category-- we will not know in this life.

Anyway, no one said there would be a lot of people who "make it" to the level of a son of perdition, but there will be some. Scripturally, we know that Cain is one, but we don't know about the others. It is said of him that he worshiped satan to "get gain". Because we have no way of knowing what kind of religious experiences others have unless they tell us, we don't know. Suppose some of these people had visions of the savior etc, but turned away-- we would never know.

I don't think it would matter if it is easy or not, only if it is possible. Which I think it would be. But I'm still getting in to this stuff... But, I do have something to say about your views on perfect knowledge.

If someone had a perfect knowledge, they would not follow Satan. They will know that following Satan will lead to sadness and destruction, and will only lead to sadness and destruction. To think anything different is a deception, confusion, or ignorance, and therefore, not a perfect knowledge. I think it's very clear that you can not "gain" from following an evil path.

Especially concerning the after-life, if you have perfect knowledge you know that an deliberately evil path is infinitely less desirable than a good path. And, a good path is infinitely more beneficial than the evil one. Anyone who chooses the evil path does not understand why it's evil and will lead to sadness and regret.

[Montgomery Price]

Alma 32 shows that "perfect knowledge" is gained only by first exercising faith, and continuing in the "faith-to-knowledge-to more faith-to-more knowledge" spiral. Much like what was culminated by the mutually compounding influence of faith and knowledge upon each other in Ether 3 (see verses 19 & 20).

Moroni 7:15-17 talks about the role of our conscience in gaining "perfect knowledge" as we heed it. 2 Nephi 9:14 talks about our "perfect knowledge" in terms of correctly understanding our salvation only after understanding our guilt. So choice has everything to do with how perfect our knowledge becomes.

But how is this fair? If someone chose to reject perfect knowledge, then they did not understand the perfect knowledge and why they should have it, and they don't understand it, because they chose not to accept it, and they chose not to accept it, because they didn't understand it, and they didn't understand it because they chose not to accept it, because they didn't understand it, and so on and so on.

This is circular. Even if you implement faith. If someone chooses not to have faith as progression towards knowledge, then they don't have enough knowledge to understand that they should, and that it is best for them.

[Rob Osborn]

If it is Gods work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, then I would reason that God never stops working until "all" have immortality and eternal life. It is true that disobedience never leads to lasting peace and true happiness. I further believe that there is no such thing as an eternal devil because at some point even being a devil isn't worth it. If a devil stops being a devil, what then? Does Gods work come into play to bring to pass his immortality and eternal life?

There is definately something about suffering that leads one into paths of righteousness as a natural course. Truly speaking, if everyone has the same shot at life, eventually all would theoretically choose the good path. I thus think evil and it's path is but just a temporary abode until the lost soul is corrected. I mean really- who wants to be eternally alone and in torment? I don't even think that would please the very Almighty!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

But how is this fair? If someone chose to reject perfect knowledge, then they did not understand the perfect knowledge and why they should have it, and they don't understand it, because they chose not to accept it, and they chose not to accept it, because they didn't understand it, and they didn't understand it because they chose not to accept it, because they didn't understand it, and so on and so on.

This is circular. Even if you implement faith. If someone chooses not to have faith as progression towards knowledge, then they don't have enough knowledge to understand that they should, and that it is best for them.

If they didn't understand it then isn't a perfect knowledge, so your premise is once again false.

You also giev people way to much credit that if some one chose to reject perfect knoweledge "then they did not understand the perfect knowledge and why they should have it".

People reject things all of the time. Some might even claim to have a perfect knowledge in something and still reject it because they have an agenda. This is obvious.

[Glenn101]

Then why are some given access to the celestial kingdom, which is infinitely more rewarding than the lesser kingdoms... if everyone will accept in light of full knowledge?

If everyone accepts, and everyone is given utmost salvation... then there is no reason to have empty telestial and terrestrial kingdoms. So, why is this not the case?

Everyone will eventually know that Christ is who He claimed to be almost two thousand years ago. Listen to Alma: Mosiah 27: 31

31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.

This is not saying that all will accept Christ and repent before the judgment, but all will definitely do so when they are brought to the judgment seat. And not all will merit the Celestial Kingdom. But everyone will get what they deserve. However, to me, the concept of three degrees of glory or three kingdoms and hell is much better than just heaven or hell.

Glenn

[CV75]

If not everyone will receive all the "pros" + "cons" then there are a certain number of people who will have a choice to make on insufficient -or possibly incorrect- information.

Not so: D&C 93: 31 reads, "Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light." This is a key to the root of your questions, and is at the root of any interpretation I might offer of the volumes of scripture listed in my other posts.

[CV75]

But how is this fair? If someone chose to reject perfect knowledge, then they did not understand the perfect knowledge and why they should have it, and they don't understand it, because they chose not to accept it, and they chose not to accept it, because they didn't understand it, and they didn't understand it because they chose not to accept it, because they didn't understand it, and so on and so on.

Not so: D&C 93: 31 reads, "Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light." This is a key to the root of your questions.

People do reject their own knowledge; sometimes this is called "denial" but there are many other dynamics that can contribute to their willingly not receiving the light.

[mfbukowski]

I assumed that accepting Christ was also accepting that his path is the correct path. What I have apparently falsely assumed is that you can accept Christ and not follow his plan he wishes for you to accept. Accepting is only acknowledging, and then denying a perfect plan.... So, I still don't understand why someone would reject ultimate exaltation.

Read the post I just made before this one.

I did. You are not getting it. The whole point is that not everyone wants to do the work that it will take to achieve the CK. Suppose I gave everyone a million dollars. Some would retire and have tail-gate parties the rest of their lives.

Some would take that million dollars and invest it in a business, work their butts off and turn it into 5, 10 or a hundred million.

Accepting Christ gives you a million spiritual dollars. Those who want the tail gate parties for eternity get the telestial K and those who want to work a little bit get the terestrial kingdom

Celestial is for the Donald Trumps and Bill Gates.

Now I suppose you will think I am saying you have to be rich to make it into the celestial kingdom!

With all due respect, I suggest that you drop the arrogant attitude and just read what people are telling you! Not everyone wants to work hard enough to reach celestial glory, when even the telestial kingdom will be beyond your wildest imaginings.

[Luigi]

Suppose I gave everyone a million dollars. Some would retire and have tail-gate parties the rest of their lives. Some would take that million dollars and invest it in a business, work their butts off and turn it into 5, 10 or a hundred million..

Yet either is a completely rational choice given uncertainty and one's time preference for consumption. One is not inherently 'better' than the other and the outcomes of the latter are certainly not guaranteed and thus reasonably not embraced by everyone.

Accepting Christ gives you a million spiritual dollars. Those who want the tail gate parties for eternity get the telestial K and those who want to work a little bit get the terestrial kingdom.

Except Christ, the million spiritual dollars, the telestial kingdom and terestrial kingdom are all invisible-thus making any claims about them highly questionable. If the rewards were a sure bet and the rewards evident I feel confident all humanity would embrace them. I honestly don't think any human is stupid enough to reject eternal bliss and happiness for a few years of indulgence and if they were that idiotic it seems the creator of their mental faculties is to blame for insufficiently endowing them with the capacity to make a rational choice.

With all due respect, I suggest that you drop the arrogant attitude and just read what people are telling you! Not everyone wants to work hard enough to reach celestial glory, when even the telestial kingdom will be beyond your wildest imaginings.

Yes, that's it, people who don't go to the celestial glory are just lazy. The fact that the outcome is invisible and extremely unlikely and/or that there are innumerable potential gods offering eternal rewards for following their particular religion has NOTHING to do with it.

[mrmendoza]

When we make choices, we always pick what is most beneficial to us.

What world do you live in? We don't always pick what's most benificial to us! We pick what we want now! As often as not we just hope that our choices aren't too detrimental to us!

To have celestial glory is infinitely more rewarding than the lesser kingdoms, and is therefore the most obvious choice.

Well that does seem to make since.

What will you think of all those in the celestial kingdom who dwell in the presence of God, when you're in a lesser kingdom? How will you feel knowing that you could never have it, and it would have been worth it if you had?

As I've always understood it, 'That's the hell of it!'

There's no reason not to. If someone understands the plan of salvation, they understand this. A finite amount of work, for an infinite amount of reward is always worth it.

As I said before, man isn't always reasonable, nor does he always do what makes sense!

The fact is that as Lightbearer has indicated, there's nothing in the scripture that would indicate that we can cross from a lower kingdom to a higher, unless we came from the higher kingdom just to visit someone in the lower kingdom!

While there's a lot of wishfull thinking on this subject, it's still all speculation. Again just because people in the spirit prison acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savour, remember what the scripture says;

For this cause was the gospel preachedalso to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1Peter4;6

I think you take too much on yourself for your reasoning!

Mike

[mrmendoza]

True or False:

The utmost of eternal progression, that every man is capable of attaining, can not be limited by his actions beforehand. (Your potential for eternal progression is never limited by varied finite amounts of suffering, learning, works, faith, etc. before you receive ultimate reward.)

How do you or anyone else know what anyone else is capable of attaining? I think that as much as we like to think that we're all as capable everyone else, that's not really how it is! How do God become God of all the other host but by being more capable?

Also eternal progression is not guarenteed to those who didn't make it to the CK. See this;

D&C76;

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

That sounds pretty permanent to me! But even so:

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

Mike

[Montgomery Price]

I have responses for all of you, and I'm getting around to it... but unfortunately I am very busy. If I respond to only a certain few of you, it's only because I'm constrained in terms of time. I'll try my best to pay attention to each one of you, but there are several conversations I am upholding as of now.

[erichard]

I have responses for all of you, and I'm getting around to it... but unfortunately I am very busy. If I respond to only a certain few of you, it's only because I'm constrained in terms of time. I'll try my best to pay attention to each one of you, but there are several conversations I am upholding as of now.

Hi MP,

Below is another Mormon scripture that I do not think anyone has quoted. The other ones I saw quoted were also very good ones.

One must understand that God did not create any of us out of nothing: we have an eternal intelligence in us. God gives this intelligence a spirit body, then a mortal physical body, and finally a resurrected physical body for eternity.

This resurrection is based on the law these eternal beings choose to live by. I sincerely believe that when we understand ourselves and others better, this plan of salvation will make perfect sense; and we will be grateful to God for this plan.

If God had created us "out of nothing" surely He would ultimately be responsible for what he created out of nothing, would He not? Saying that He "gives us free agency" does not change anything, because He could take that into account when He created us: He would still be responsible.

It is no more strange that people will choose to live by a telestial, or a terrestrial or a celestial law as it is that people choose to live by different principles and laws in this world. Some are vicious crooks with little consistency, others are extremely discipled and developed. It is completely consistent.

The only inconsistent idea is the false creedial idea that God created us all out of nothing: "so why should we not all be be the same"?

D&C 88

14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.

15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;

19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

Richard

[mfbukowski]

Yes, that's it, people who don't go to the celestial glory are just lazy. The fact that the outcome is invisible and extremely unlikely and/or that there are innumerable potential gods offering eternal rewards for following their particular religion has NOTHING to do with it.

That's why it's called a "test". They rarely come with the answers already given.

[mrmendoza]

I have responses for all of you, and I'm getting around to it... but unfortunately I am very busy. If I respond to only a certain few of you, it's only because I'm constrained in terms of time. I'll try my best to pay attention to each one of you, but there are several conversations I am upholding as of now.

Well, you'd better hurry up or this thread will soon go into oblivion!

Mike

[Rob Osborn]

What will you think of all those in the celestial kingdom who dwell in the presence of God, when you're in a lesser kingdom? How will you feel knowing that you could never have it, and it would have been worth it if you had?

Speculative doctrine always makes me interested! You know, the thing about the doctrine of eternal progression is that God's laws are instituted to bring us to him- to be like him. He does not create laws that lead in a different direction away from him or to a different path. With God it's one set of laws, one path, and eventually one saving predicament. I do not understand how we can get so confused with this subject but it does happen. Here is a simple test for you to realize the truth of this matter-

Can you ever think of a law of God that didn't help a person overcome a weakness? Nope

What laws out there justify sin? None

How many gates to salvation are there? One

Is there one or three paths leading to salvation after baptism? One

Is a path a destination or a "means to" the destination? A means to the destination

Is it impossible or out of reach for man to ever live up to a higher law? Cleary possible- all things are capable for man to attain

I can state with confidence that man will never end up in a kingdom of heaven and see a plain higher that is unreachable! The temple teaches us that the path to the celestial Kingdom goes straight through the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms. Why are we now in the telestial kingdom? To learn all of God's laws line upon line precept upon precept. Obedience to the preparatory gospel (repentance and baptism for the Holy Ghost) is a telestial level of law making up a part of the higher celestial law. The celestial law is the combination of all telestial and terrestrial laws.

God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man and he will not stop until all of his children who want it achieve that very thing! God is great, he is merciful, forgiving, understanding, but above all- he is just! If man wants a higher reward and is willing to work towards it then Gods laws allow for it! Period!