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Montgomery Price

The Problem of Salvation

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Mormons believe that everyone will (eventually) accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Following this belief, is the belief that God the Father and God the Son are both infinitely loving, forgiving, and understanding. Any true belief in Christ is represented by a person's love for Christ, and their faith in him.

The celestial kingdom is infinitely more rewarding than the 2 lesser kingdoms.

If everyone will eventually come to sincerely accept Jesus as their savior, why would they ever aspire to any less than the celestial kingdom and the presence of God?

The truth is... Not one. Not one person who truly believes in Christ would ever reject such an opportunity. The only who would reject this choice is one who does not truly know Christ and his love, or the potential of love Christ has given him.

If anyone is to be blamed for making the wrong choice while on Earth, this is unfair. This person did not posses all the "pros" + "cons" of truly accepting Christ. Their knowledge is partial. If a Muslim lives his entire life devoted to Islam, and then one day missionaries knock on his door, it is perfectly rational, given his assumptions about Islam, to reject the missionaries. So, why should he be blamed for doing what he thought was perfectly rational for his entire life? From birth to death?

The fact that there are no "cons" to truly accepting Christ raises the question... Why not have everyone immediately revealed to the inevitable testimony of Christ, so they can make the obvious choice of the celestial kingdom?

Why allow the believers to be rewarded more than the others, when the others are given a choice without out all the information from both sides? The information they receive is not based on their free-will. The information is shown to or hidden from them in ways they have no control over.

So,

1. Why does a man receive less/more reward for that which he has no power over? (Birth place, physical/mental ailments, the deception/confusion inflicted by others.)

2. Why does not every man receive his inevitable testimony of Christ sooner, rather than much later, so that he may receive celestial glory?

3. Why does a finite amount of time have any relevance to an infinite amount of reward? Why not give everyone all of the infinite amount of "pros" and "cons" so every man has an unbiased and proper choice?

Everyone will be given ample and complete understanding of the gospel in a fair and equal manner; then everyone will either reject or accept; those whom have been given this knowledge in its "fullness" and reject it hear on earth will be dealt with after the millenium rein and into the judgement. the same will apply to those whom never were taught it on earth, they will be taught in the spirit world and will accept or deny. :P

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Mormons believe that everyone will (eventually) accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Following this belief, is the belief that God the Father and God the Son are both infinitely loving, forgiving, and understanding. Any true belief in Christ is represented by a person's love for Christ, and their faith in him.

The celestial kingdom is infinitely more rewarding than the 2 lesser kingdoms.

If everyone will eventually come to sincerely accept Jesus as their savior, why would they ever aspire to any less than the celestial kingdom and the presence of God?

The truth is... Not one. Not one person who truly believes in Christ would ever reject such an opportunity. The only who would reject this choice is one who does not truly know Christ and his love, or the potential of love Christ has given him.

If anyone is to be blamed for making the wrong choice while on Earth, this is unfair. This person did not posses all the "pros" + "cons" of truly accepting Christ. Their knowledge is partial. If a Muslim lives his entire life devoted to Islam, and then one day missionaries knock on his door, it is perfectly rational, given his assumptions about Islam, to reject the missionaries. So, why should he be blamed for doing what he thought was perfectly rational for his entire life? From birth to death?

The fact that there are no "cons" to truly accepting Christ raises the question... Why not have everyone immediately revealed to the inevitable testimony of Christ, so they can make the obvious choice of the celestial kingdom?

Why allow the believers to be rewarded more than the others, when the others are given a choice without out all the information from both sides? The information they receive is not based on their free-will. The information is shown to or hidden from them in ways they have no control over.

So,

1. Why does a man receive less/more reward for that which he has no power over? (Birth place, physical/mental ailments, the deception/confusion inflicted by others.)

2. Why does not every man receive his inevitable testimony of Christ sooner, rather than much later, so that he may receive celestial glory?

3. Why does a finite amount of time have any relevance to an infinite amount of reward? Why not give everyone all of the infinite amount of "pros" and "cons" so every man has an unbiased and proper choice?

Just keeping an eye on this thread... :P

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1. Why does a man receive less/more reward for that which he has no power over? (Birth place, physical/mental ailments, the deception/confusion inflicted by others.)

He doesn't. You are misunderstanding the doctrine. We believe in eternal progression. Christ's true doctrine is infinitely more compassionate than we sometimes acknowledge.

2. Why does not every man receive his inevitable testimony of Christ sooner, rather than much later, so that he may receive celestial glory?

Because it is not enough to be saved to enter the celestial kingdom. One must be willing to live the celestial law. Time allows us to grow and change our character. Even the most righteous among us require further growth before receiving the rewards of the Celestial Kingdom.

3. Why does a finite amount of time have any relevance to an infinite amount of reward? Why not give everyone all of the infinite amount of "pros" and "cons" so every man has an unbiased and proper choice?

Hence Christ preaching to those in the Spirit world.

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Everyone will be given ample and complete understanding of the gospel in a fair and equal manner; then everyone will either reject or accept; those whom have been given this knowledge in its "fullness" and reject it hear on earth will be dealt with after the millenium rein and into the judgement. the same will apply to those whom never were taught it on earth, they will be taught in the spirit world and will accept or deny. :P

Then why are some given access to the celestial kingdom, which is infinitely more rewarding than the lesser kingdoms... if everyone will accept in light of full knowledge?

If everyone accepts, and everyone is given utmost salvation... then there is no reason to have empty telestial and terrestrial kingdoms. So, why is this not the case?

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He doesn't. You are misunderstanding the doctrine. We believe in eternal progression. Christ's true doctrine is infinitely more compassionate than we sometimes acknowledge.

So, if he is so compassionate, why would anyone ever have to worry about their finite choices? If we all receive the same infinite reward, then any finite amount of action is completely irrelevant. Everyone will be patient enough to endure a finite "punishment" to receive infinite reward. There is now question about that. Eternal Progression is very flawed.

Because it is not enough to be saved to enter the celestial kingdom. One must be willing to live the celestial law. Time allows us to grow and change our character. Even the most righteous among us require further growth before receiving the rewards of the Celestial Kingdom.

Everyone is willing to live the celestial law as soon as they receive true knowledge. If the eternal progression ensures that the same reward will be given to each man, and true knowledge ensures that every man is willing... then any action on earth is completely irrelevant and has no bearing what so ever on infinite time-span of your ultimate reward.

Hence Christ preaching to those in the Spirit world.

Eternal Progression opens up a whole new world of problems.

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So, if he is so compassionate, why would anyone ever have to worry about their finite choices? If we all receive the same infinite reward, then any finite amount of action is completely irrelevant. Everyone will be patient enough to endure a finite "punishment" to receive infinite reward. There is now question about that. Eternal Progression is very flawed.

Choices in mortality determine whether we will suffer hell in the spirit world between death and resurrection. Those who die with a clean conscience will be better off.

Everyone is willing to live the celestial law as soon as they receive true knowledge. If the eternal progression ensures that the same reward will be given to each man, and true knowledge ensures that every man is willing... then any action on earth is completely irrelevant and has no bearing what so ever on infinite time-span of your ultimate reward.

Eternal progression doesn't insure every man will receive the same reward. It insures everyone will have the opportunity to receive it. Again, you are making illogical leaps based on the idea that there are no repercussions for willful disobedience in this life. There are, but once that suffering has sufficiently humbled a soul preparatory to his/her confessing Christ, progression can continue.

Eternal Progression opens up a whole new world of problems.

Not at all.

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Everyone is willing to live the celestial law as soon as they receive true knowledge. If the eternal progression ensures that the same reward will be given to each man, and true knowledge ensures that every man is willing... then any action on earth is completely irrelevant and has no bearing what so ever on infinite time-span of your ultimate reward.

Eternal Progression opens up a whole new world of problems.

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Choices in mortality determine whether we will suffer hell in the spirit world between death and resurrection. Those who die with a clean conscience will be better off.

Better off than who? They all eventually get the same eternal reward. The word "eventual" or any of the suffering leading to this eternal reward does not lessen or add to it at all. It's equally infinite for everyone. So, in the ultimate and equal end... better off than who?

Eternal progression doesn't insure every man will receive the same reward. It insures everyone will have the opportunity to receive it. Again, you are making illogical leaps based on the idea that there are no repercussions for willful disobedience in this life. There are, but once that suffering has sufficiently humbled a soul preparatory to his/her confessing Christ, progression can continue.

Every man will be willing to progress. After a perfect knowledge of Christ has been obtained, then there will be none who do not progress. Do you wish to dispute this? What reasons does a man who has died and been taught in spirit prison or spirit heaven to not progress to infinite reward? Is there any conceivable reason why someone would choose infinite suffering over infinite reward? There is not. I make no illogical leap. You need to realize that when eternal reward is offered, any finite set-back is completely irrelevant. Finite time does not matter after you have attained the infinite.

Infinite will always be greater than finite. The choice of infinity will always be placed higher than the finite. Happiness will always be greater than suffering.

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Because after all we are what we are. We may be forgiven fex bad sins but forgiving may not change our heart. Greedy people continue beeing greedy.... could they enherit the selestical kingdom? Would it be right to let them come to the selestical kingdom? Would it be rigious thowards those, who found the truth earlier, to allow everyone in the selestical Kingdom? Does the man have to finally confess that he dont have enough in himself to reach that high? Would it be against Gods love that not everyone can enherit selestical kingdom? Is it wrong that not everyone is a heart surgeon? According to salary it would be quite right, so why am I not a heaart surgeon, even though I DO wish to help all people!?

Do we at the end have to meet our boundaries? I do understand why I am not a heart surgeon, will I then understand why I cant be with the elected? Why should everyone enheret the same? Would that be "love" Would it be love to demand from people what they are not able to do? Would God make us ALL able to everything? Then, why are we individuals... isnt that the salt of excistence.... I am different than you ... I have other interests than you.... you may fulfill me, and I you, in some things, making a fulfillment at least in one aspect of life.

Would it be wrong if we did have different abilities, interests aso... and according to those we would be able to enherit different places. I believe that even though we would have a perfect knowledge about Jesus as Christ NOT everybody would even choose the hard work in selestical... some might be more drawn to fex... sports and other activities that they are good at...

Beeing saved does not mean our abilities and toughts would be alike. Even thoug abilities to those who have had a mental ilness or such IS beeing healed and they are able to understand and choose for themselves. In this matter we are made equal and alike, but we are stil individuals. I will stil be temptet to be idle... and idle have nothing to do in the selestical... unless they manage to change themselves.

IMHO

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Better off than who? They all eventually get the same eternal reward. The word "eventual" or any of the suffering leading to this eternal reward does not lessen or add to it at all. It's equally infinite for everyone. So, in the ultimate and equal end... better off than who?

Better off than those who suffer hell. Let me ask you this, you have a box of twinkies and your children all want one. You want to give each of them a twinkie but your higher purpose is to teach them charity. So, each child must learn that to get the reward he/she has to be willing to give it up for another. The "suffering" each child endures is commisserate with his/her ability to learn the lesson and acquire the attribute of perfect love. The quickest learners get the twinkie first which, if you know anything about children, condemns the slow learners to hell as they see others enjoy their reward and bask in the peace of a life free of "suffering". There will be children of God who have learned these lessons through the trials of mortality without ever having gone to church or heard the name of Christ. They will be rewarded because of who they have become not because of where they worshipped on Sunday. The formalities of knowing God and becoming His will be taken care of in the next life but becoming godly will have already been accomplished.

Every man will be willing to progress. After a perfect knowledge of Christ has been obtained, then there will be none who do not progress. Do you wish to dispute this? What reasons does a man who has died and been taught in spirit prison or spirit heaven to not progress to infinite reward? Is there any conceivable reason why someone would choose infinite suffering over infinite reward? There is not. I make no illogical leap. You need to realize that when eternal reward is offered, any finite set-back is completely irrelevant. Finite time does not matter after you have attained the infinite.

Not so. Let me share a personal experience. When I was 15 years old, I made some bad choices. I repented and God forgave me but it was another decade before I could forgive myself. When I looked in the mirror, I still sawthe girl I was and not the woman I could become. God was trying to take me into His arms and I would not let Him because I did not understand the power of grace. I had to progress in my understanding and in wisdom before I could accept myself as clean - healed. I chose to live beneath my reward for far too long.

Infinite will always be greater than finite. The choice of infinity will always be placed higher than the finite. Happiness will always be greater than suffering.

You keep saying this as if we weren't looking through a glass darkly. But I will tell you that peace comes when we stop seeing suffering and start seeing educational opportunities and when we see that the reward is in who we become rather than what we "get" at the end.

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Mormons believe that everyone will (eventually) accept Jesus Christ as their savior.

I do not think this is an accurate statement. He is everyone's Savior, but not all will accept that fact. I'm thinking of the concept that "every tongue shall confess and every knee shall bow"." This has to do with Christ as Judge and everyone's accountability to Him, not everyone's accepting as Savior.

Romans 14:10-13

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother?s way.

Mosiah 27:30, 31

I rejected my Redeemer, and denied that which had been spoken of by our fathers; but now that they may foresee that he will come, and that he remembereth every creature of his creating, he will make himself manifest unto all.

Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.

D&C 76:110-112

And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

D&C 88:104

And this shall be the sound of his trump, saying to all people, both in heaven and in earth, and that are under the earth?for every ear shall hear it, and every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, while they hear the sound of the trump, saying: Fear God, and give glory to him who sitteth upon the throne, forever and ever; for the hour of his judgment is come.

I think an understanding of this has to be straightened out before correct attitudes, connections, conclusions and understanding can be formed.

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I think an understanding of this has to be straightened out before correct attitudes, connections, conclusions and understanding can be formed.

Sorry, forgot these two:

Phillipians 2: 10-12

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

D&C 138:23, 24

And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.

Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.

Only the saints call Him Savior (Redeemer, Deliverer).

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1. Why does a man receive less/more reward for that which he has no power over? (Birth place, physical/mental ailments, the deception/confusion inflicted by others.)

This does not happen. The gospel is preached to the dead so they can be judged by the same standards as the living who heard it (1 Peter 4:6). Also, I do not believe that a person who is presented with all the pros and cons will always choose the way of Christ. Such a person has to filter those pros and cons through a lifetime of experiences, temptations, and weaknesses. Only the person who has obeyed the light of Christ and then the Holy Spirit as he receives it will ultimately choose Christ before it's too late.

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LDS salvation is a really confusing topic! And this is coming from someone who has studied it for a whole lifetime! The whole problem arrises out of perhaps a distorted or partial view of the three kingdoms of Glory.

If we go to the heart and principle of the matter then we learn what type of person is saved. In the end there will be two classifications of people- 1. Those who are saved from their sins, and- 2. Those who are not saved from their sins. Clearly here within these two categories we will find all of mankind.

Now building off of that premise above, baptism also makes a crucial role into this paradigm because baptism is the only method for man to be saved through in the end. It is the only ordinance that allows men to be saved from their sins. Here again is the two classifications of people- 1. Those who were baptized and thus saved. and- 2. Those who went unbaptized and were not saved.

Baptism we learn is thus an essential ordinance to being saved from hell eternally. No unbaptized person will ever find salvation! That is an absolute fact of the gospel! So, what we really need to determine is what baptism does besides allowing one to be saved from their sins. Repentance and baptism is the "gate" by which we enter onto the "path" leading to the celestial kingdom. Thus, the gospel of repentance and baptism is the "preparatory" gospel. Only through obedience to that baptismal covenant afterward is one truly saved, and salvation is only meted out in the celestial kingdom. You see, a part of the plan of salvation not explained very well in LDS doctrine is that the "path" leading to the celestial kingdom is the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms along with their laws and covenants.

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Mormons believe that everyone will (eventually) accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Following this belief, is the belief that God the Father and God the Son are both infinitely loving, forgiving, and understanding. Any true belief in Christ is represented by a person's love for Christ, and their faith in him.

The premise is a false one. LDS do not believe that all will (eventually) accept Jesus CHrist as their savior.

Once you understand this then maybe you can come up with a real argument. If you chose not to understand this then there is no point in talking about this one point.

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Mormons believe that everyone will (eventually) accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Following this belief, is the belief that God the Father and God the Son are both infinitely loving, forgiving, and understanding. Any true belief in Christ is represented by a person's love for Christ, and their faith in him.

No that is not so, we do not believe that everyone will accept Jesus Christ as their savior. In fact in the vision of the degrees of glory it states the following:
(D&C 76:109-112) "But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."
Being compelled to bow the knee is not the same as accepting. Those who inherit the Telestial must suffer in hell for their own sins, because they reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life, live a life of wickedness and fail to change their course in the world of spirits. They are damned, and until they bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ they will remain in this state of spiritual death. Those who never accept become sons of perdition and are cast out with Satan and his angels. We cannot procrastinate our repentance to the end and expect to be saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God. God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are infinitely loving, but they cannot deny justice. Mercy cannot rob justice, if a person refuses to repent God cannot save him. We cannot be saved "in our sins," only "from our sins." No unclean thing can enter His kingdom, therefore unless they are cleansed through the atonement of Christ on account of our faith we remain "filthy still." Our faith in Christ is manifest by our following Christ and keeping the covenants we make with Him as is explained here:
(D&C 76:50-70) "And again we bear record?for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just? They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given? That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things? They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God? Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ?s, and Christ is God?s. And they shall overcome all things.

Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet. These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever. These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people. These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection. These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just. These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all. These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn. These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all. These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical."

The celestial kingdom is infinitely more rewarding than the 2 lesser kingdoms.
That much is obvious.
If everyone will eventually come to sincerely accept Jesus as their savior, why would they ever aspire to any less than the celestial kingdom and the presence of God?

This is the straw-man of the entire argument. For one thing nobody aspires to anything but the Celestial Kingdom, the other kingdoms are for those who fall short of the ideal. Not all have the same faith and not all have the same level of righteousness. All have the same opportunities for exaltation, but not all want that great gift. We are all given according to the desires of our heart.

The truth is... Not one. Not one person who truly believes in Christ would ever reject such an opportunity. The only who would reject this choice is one who does not truly know Christ and his love, or the potential of love Christ has given him.
This is totally false, or else why are there those who become sons of perdition? They knew the Lord and His power and came out in open rebellion against it.
If anyone is to be blamed for making the wrong choice while on Earth, this is unfair. This person did not posses all the "pros" + "cons" of truly accepting Christ. Their knowledge is partial. If a Muslim lives his entire life devoted to Islam, and then one day missionaries knock on his door, it is perfectly rational, given his assumptions about Islam, to reject the missionaries. So, why should he be blamed for doing what he thought was perfectly rational for his entire life? From birth to death?
No this is also false. All are given the light of Christ, not all listen to or believe those promptings. Not all develop faith. Some because of the traditions of their fathers and others because of transgression loose light and truth. We are not sent to this earth to do what is "rational" but to develop faith and see if we will keep the Lord's commandments when not in His presence.
The fact that there are no "cons" to truly accepting Christ raises the question... Why not have everyone immediately revealed to the inevitable testimony of Christ, so they can make the obvious choice of the celestial kingdom?
Of course there are "cons" to accepting Christ. In fact Christ himself said that unless we are willing to sacrifice all things then we are not worthy of Him or His kingdom.
Why allow the believers to be rewarded more than the others, when the others are given a choice without out all the information from both sides? The information they receive is not based on their free-will. The information is shown to or hidden from them in ways they have no control over.
This is another falsehood, everyone will be given the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel, if not in this life, in the world of spirits.
So,

1. Why does a man receive less/more reward for that which he has no power over? (Birth place, physical/mental ailments, the deception/confusion inflicted by others.)

2. Why does not every man receive his inevitable testimony of Christ sooner, rather than much later, so that he may receive celestial glory?

3. Why does a finite amount of time have any relevance to an infinite amount of reward? Why not give everyone all of the infinite amount of "pros" and "cons" so every man has an unbiased and proper choice?

You are essentially asking why God did not choose to follow Lucifer's plan. Why the need for agency? Why the need for faith? Why the need for opposition? Why not go with the plan that claims "not one soul will be lost." Just save them all in the Celestial Kingdom without regard to faith or works. In fact why create a world at all if we were all in the Celestial Kingdom in the pre-mortal life, why not just stay there? Can you see who utterly ridiculous such a line of reasoning is if you believe in the scriptures?

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Mormons believe that everyone will (eventually) accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Following this belief, is the belief that God the Father and God the Son are both infinitely loving, forgiving, and understanding. Any true belief in Christ is represented by a person's love for Christ, and their faith in him.

The celestial kingdom is infinitely more rewarding than the 2 lesser kingdoms.

If everyone will eventually come to sincerely accept Jesus as their savior, why would they ever aspire to any less than the celestial kingdom and the presence of God?

The truth is... Not one. Not one person who truly believes in Christ would ever reject such an opportunity. The only who would reject this choice is one who does not truly know Christ and his love, or the potential of love Christ has given him.

If anyone is to be blamed for making the wrong choice while on Earth, this is unfair. This person did not posses all the "pros" + "cons" of truly accepting Christ. Their knowledge is partial. If a Muslim lives his entire life devoted to Islam, and then one day missionaries knock on his door, it is perfectly rational, given his assumptions about Islam, to reject the missionaries. So, why should he be blamed for doing what he thought was perfectly rational for his entire life? From birth to death?

The fact that there are no "cons" to truly accepting Christ raises the question... Why not have everyone immediately revealed to the inevitable testimony of Christ, so they can make the obvious choice of the celestial kingdom?

Why allow the believers to be rewarded more than the others, when the others are given a choice without out all the information from both sides? The information they receive is not based on their free-will. The information is shown to or hidden from them in ways they have no control over.

So,

1. Why does a man receive less/more reward for that which he has no power over? (Birth place, physical/mental ailments, the deception/confusion inflicted by others.)

2. Why does not every man receive his inevitable testimony of Christ sooner, rather than much later, so that he may receive celestial glory?

3. Why does a finite amount of time have any relevance to an infinite amount of reward? Why not give everyone all of the infinite amount of "pros" and "cons" so every man has an unbiased and proper choice?

Hello montgomery,

I would like to mention that the doctrine of reincarnation doesn't have all of the logical incoherencies present within the more traditional versions of the afterlife.

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Every man will be willing to progress. After a perfect knowledge of Christ has been obtained, then there will be none who do not progress. Do you wish to dispute this? What reasons does a man who has died and been taught in spirit prison or spirit heaven to not progress to infinite reward? Is there any conceivable reason why someone would choose infinite suffering over infinite reward? There is not. I make no illogical leap.

This is your problem right here. Humans do not operate solely on logic. Satan defied God, what was logical about that? Men and women love those that do not love them back and will never consent to a longterm relationship, what is logical about that? People use drugs and tobacco knowing that they are harmful, people overeat, etc. etc. What is logical about that?

To assume that we will suddenly change into purely logical beings on our death is illogical.

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I do not think this is an accurate statement. He is everyone's Savior, but not all will accept that fact. I'm thinking of the concept that "every tongue shall confess and every knee shall bow"." This has to do with Christ as Judge and everyone's accountability to Him, not everyone's accepting as Savior.

Absolutely correct. LDS don't believe that "everyone will (eventually) accept Jesus Christ as their savior". Hence the OP is built on a false premise.

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Better off than those who suffer hell. Let me ask you this, you have a box of twinkies and your children all want one. You want to give each of them a twinkie but your higher purpose is to teach them charity. So, each child must learn that to get the reward he/she has to be willing to give it up for another. The "suffering" each child endures is commiserate with his/her ability to learn the lesson and acquire the attribute of perfect love. The quickest learners get the twinkie first which, if you know anything about children, condemns the slow learners to hell as they see others enjoy their reward and bask in the peace of a life free of "suffering". There will be children of God who have learned these lessons through the trials of mortality without ever having gone to church or heard the name of Christ. They will be rewarded because of who they have become not because of where they worshipped on Sunday. The formalities of knowing God and becoming His will be taken care of in the next life but becoming godly will have already been accomplished.

Well, wouldn't the people who suffer through hell appreciate salvation more than does who do not suffer hell? This is based on the same concept of growth and appreciation. Do people who suffer hell have more opportunity for growth from the experience than those who don't?

Also, don't all of the children eventually get the twinkie? Again. If someone has to wait a finite amount of time for the infinite, whether it be suffering or learning... it does not matter after you attain the infinite. If a child has to suffer before he learns what you wish of him, then he can wait and he can suffer and it makes no difference because the end result is the same as the other children. The only difference is their experience. The experience does not affect the end result. Any excess in suffering is just unreasonable. And there are ways to remove excess suffering without ever limiting man's free-will.

Not so. Let me share a personal experience. When I was 15 years old, I made some bad choices. I repented and God forgave me but it was another decade before I could forgive myself. When I looked in the mirror, I still sawthe girl I was and not the woman I could become. God was trying to take me into His arms and I would not let Him because I did not understand the power of grace. I had to progress in my understanding and in wisdom before I could accept myself as clean - healed. I chose to live beneath my reward for far too long.

I've already addressed this. You did not understand. When I said "Every man will be willing to progress. After a perfect knowledge of Christ has been obtained, then there will be none who do not progress." I was talking about when everyone will understand. When everyone has the perfect knowledge. Your situation does not apply.

You keep saying this as if we weren't looking through a glass darkly. But I will tell you that peace comes when we stop seeing suffering and start seeing educational opportunities and when we see that the reward is in who we become rather than what we "get" at the end.

Yes, but by this logic, people who spend 1000 years in hell will be better off than those who don't, because they've experience more suffering, and therefore more potential for growth. If this is not true, then why make them suffer in hell for 1000 years if they could just grow just as easily some other way?

Also, ignoring the fact that 1000 years in hell does not compare to an infinite amount of happiness. To say that it's necessary in any way is ridiculous.

True or False:

The utmost of eternal progression, that every man is capable of attaining, can not be limited by his actions beforehand. (Your potential for eternal progression is never limited by varied finite amounts of suffering, learning, works, faith, etc. before you receive ultimate reward.)

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Sorry, forgot these two:

Phillipians 2: 10-12

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

D&C 138:23, 24

And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.

Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.

Only the saints call Him Savior (Redeemer, Deliverer).

Will everyone eventually obtain a perfect knowledge of Christ and all of his "pros" + "cons"?

If they will, then why would anyone reject Christ if they had perfect knowledge of him? Christ doesn't have any "cons" and won't everyone understand this?

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This does not happen. The gospel is preached to the dead so they can be judged by the same standards as the living who heard it (1 Peter 4:6). Also, I do not believe that a person who is presented with all the pros and cons will always choose the way of Christ. Such a person has to filter those pros and cons through a lifetime of experiences, temptations, and weaknesses. Only the person who has obeyed the light of Christ and then the Holy Spirit as he receives it will ultimately choose Christ before it's too late.

Then why do those people suffer needlessly, if they will all be judged with the same knowledge and standards as "the living who heard it"?

Why would anyone every not choose Christ if they were presented with every pro for accepting Christ? I contest that there are no cons to even consider if you were presented with a full and unbiased choice.

So, what cons are there for accepting Christ?

If there are none, and someone still rejects Christ, do they truly know Christ? Hasn't everyone already accepted Christ a first time in the premortal existence?

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No that is not so, we do not believe that everyone will accept Jesus Christ as their savior. In fact in the vision of the degrees of glory it states the following:Being compelled to bow the knee is not the same as accepting. Those who inherit the Telestial must suffer in hell for their own sins, because they reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life, live a life of wickedness and fail to change their course in the world of spirits. They are damned, and until they bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ they will remain in this state of spiritual death. Those who never accept become sons of perdition and are cast out with Satan and his angels. We cannot procrastinate our repentance to the end and expect to be saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God. God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are infinitely loving, but they cannot deny justice. Mercy cannot rob justice, if a person refuses to repent God cannot save him. We cannot be saved "in our sins," only "from our sins." No unclean thing can enter His kingdom, therefore unless they are cleansed through the atonement of Christ on account of our faith we remain "filthy still." Our faith in Christ is manifest by our following Christ and keeping the covenants we make with Him as is explained here:

That much is obvious.

This is the straw-man of the entire argument. For one thing nobody aspires to anything but the Celestial Kingdom, the other kingdoms are for those who fall short of the ideal. Not all have the same faith and not all have the same level of righteousness. All have the same opportunities for exaltation, but not all want that great gift. We are all given according to the desires of our heart.

This is totally false, or else why are there those who become sons of perdition? They knew the Lord and His power and came out in open rebellion against it.

No this is also false. All are given the light of Christ, not all listen to or believe those promptings. Not all develop faith. Some because of the traditions of their fathers and others because of transgression loose light and truth. We are not sent to this earth to do what is "rational" but to develop faith and see if we will keep the Lord's commandments when not in His presence.

Of course there are "cons" to accepting Christ. In fact Christ himself said that unless we are willing to sacrifice all things then we are not worthy of Him or His kingdom.

This is another falsehood, everyone will be given the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel, if not in this life, in the world of spirits.

You are essentially asking why God did not choose to follow Lucifer's plan. Why the need for agency? Why the need for faith? Why the need for opposition? Why not go with the plan that claims "not one soul will be lost." Just save them all in the Celestial Kingdom without regard to faith or works. In fact why create a world at all if we were all in the Celestial Kingdom in the pre-mortal life, why not just stay there? Can you see who utterly ridiculous such a line of reasoning is if you believe in the scriptures?

So, you don't believe in eternal progression form one kingdom to the next?

I find your beliefs refreshing, although I feel as if I'm getting mixed messages from everyone here on the board.

But, another question...

I can see that it is possible that the sons of perdition may have rejected Christ AND had a perfect knowledge of him. But, I remain skeptical as to their knowledge of Christ. Where is the evidence for the claim that those who rejected Christ in the premortal existence had a perfect knowledge of good and evil, and Christ?

Why would anyone, with a perfect knowledge of Christ, reject him?

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Well, wouldn't the people who suffer through hell appreciate salvation more than does who do not suffer hell? This is based on the same concept of growth and appreciation. Do people who suffer hell have more opportunity for growth from the experience than those who don't?

No. They are suffering only as much as they need to get beyond "damnation" i.e. the point at which their progress is stopped. I don't believe this is a prison sentence in which you have a certain amount of years allotted to serve. It's like learning math - you work the problem over and over until you get it right - you are no firther ahead of those who got it right before you. You have simply caught up.

Also, don't all of the children eventually get the twinkie? Again. If someone has to wait a finite amount of time for the infinite, whether it be suffering or learning... it does not matter after you attain the infinite. If a child has to suffer before he learns what you wish of him, then he can wait and he can suffer and it makes no difference because the end result is the same as the other children. The only difference is their experience. The experience does not affect the end result. Any excess in suffering is just unreasonable. And there are ways to remove excess suffering without ever limiting man's free-will.

Well, some already decided the process wasn't worth the twinkie. We call them sons of perdition. As for the rest of us, I don't know that some others won't decide they are satisfied without the twinkie.

I've already addressed this. You did not understand. When I said "Every man will be willing to progress. After a perfect knowledge of Christ has been obtained, then there will be none who do not progress." I was talking about when everyone will understand. When everyone has the perfect knowledge. Your situation does not apply.

Okay.

Yes, but by this logic, people who spend 1000 years in hell will be better off than those who don't, because they've experience more suffering, and therefore more potential for growth. If this is not true, then why make them suffer in hell for 1000 years if they could just grow just as easily some other way?

No. Because if they spend a thousand years in hell, they didn't learn what they needed to until day 365,000.

Also, ignoring the fact that 1000 years in hell does not compare to an infinite amount of happiness. To say that it's necessary in any way is ridiculous.

True or False:

The utmost of eternal progression, that every man is capable of attaining, can not be limited by his actions beforehand. (Your potential for eternal progression is never limited by varied finite amounts of suffering, learning, works, faith, etc. before you receive ultimate reward.)

Are you asking if my potential can be altered in this life? Yes. It can. I could entirely lose my birthright in mortality. I don't believe that is the case for most people but it is a possibility.

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