OD - 1 (the Manifesto) -- How Seriously Did the 1st Pres & Twelve Regard It?

[cinepro]

My thoughts on the question: I think there was a lot of confusion about what, exactly, OD-1 meant. Did it apply to marriages outside the US (in the Mormon colonies in Mexico and Canada?) What about existing marriages? And would it be possible for the Lord to want the Church to say one thing publicly, but practice another thing privately?

None of these issues were actually addressed until years later.

[John Larsen]

The other apostle that is associated with polygamy discension was Matthias F. Cowley. He and John W. Taylor both resigned from the quorum in 1905 over the issue of polygamy.

Matthias had his priesthood suspend in 1911. He was not excommunicated. It was well over 20 years before he was able to exercise the priesthood.

John W. was excommunicated in 1911. He died in 1916. It was not until 1965 that his membership was restored by proxy.

The Smoot hearings started in 1904 and ended in 1907. Smoot retained his seat in the Senate. He was reelected in 1908 and served in the Senate until 1933.

Therefore, only one former apostle was excommunicated and neither individual was disciplined until four years after the Smoot hearing ended.

That said, don't let a few facts spoil your fun. Enjoy!

Just an FYI, in the April General Conference of 1906, George F. Richards, Orson F. Whitney, and David O. McKay were the apostles who filled vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve caused by the resignations of John W. Taylor and Matthias F. Cowley and the death of Marriner W. Merrill â?? good men all.

Yes indeed, don't let facts spoil your fun.

Richard Roswell Lyman was also excommunicated for practicing polygamy in 1943.

[gmormon]

Yes indeed, don't let facts spoil your fun.

Richard Roswell Lyman was also excommunicated for practicing polygamy in 1943.

Who officiated this marriage? And did his first wife know? My grandfather claimed to be a polygamous too, however my grandmother, his first wife, disagreed and divorced him. Grandpa never married a 3rd wife, but still considered himself a polygamous.

[No Touch]

Who officiated this marriage? And did his first wife know? My grandfather claimed to be a polygamous too, however my grandmother, his first wife, disagreed and divorced him. Grandpa never married a 3rd wife, but still considered himself a polygamous.

Someone more well read on the subject might know better, but as well as I understand, he described the relationship as a plural/polygamous marriage but I know of no claim that any ceremony was performed. Anyone who would have performed such a sealing in the Temple would also have been subject to excommunication.

That Lyman family is interesting. Richard Lyman's father and grandfather were also both Apostles, but while his father Francis served a long and problem-free term of service as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, his grandfather Amasa was excommunicated while an Apostle during the polygamy era for completely different reasons (teaching false doctrine).

[John Larsen]

Who officiated this marriage? And did his first wife know? My grandfather claimed to be a polygamous too, however my grandmother, his first wife, disagreed and divorced him. Grandpa never married a 3rd wife, but still considered himself a polygamous.

I personally know one of his descendants. This person says that his first wife knew but as far as I know, she never made a public statement one way or another. It is hard to believe that she did not know. She did not divorce him when it all went public. It is believed that he performed the marriage himself. As a member of the 12 he would have the sealing power.

[gmormon]

I personally know one of his descendants. This person says that his first wife knew but as far as I know, she never made a public statement one way or another. It is hard to believe that she did not know. She did not divorce him when it all went public. It is believed that he performed the marriage himself. As a member of the 12 he would have the sealing power.

Wasn't his wife in an auxillary presidency?

[gmormon]

Wasn't his wife in an auxillary presidency?

Never mind I found my own answer:

Amy B. Lyman Biographical Sketch

Relief Society General President

1940â??1945

Amy Brown Lyman, a gifted administrator, cared deeply about social work. For 16 years she directed the first social welfare department of the Church, which was part of the Relief Society until 1969. She also served in the Utah legislature. While her husband was president of the European mission, she presided over the Church womenâ??s organizations in Europe. During her presidency the Relief Society celebrated its centennial with a membership of 115,000. She led the Relief Society during World War II and emphasized wartime thrift and emergency preparedness as well as relief for war victims. At a time when war industries were pulling many women into the workforce, Sister Lyman focused on strengthening families and championed the role of mothers in the home. She and her husband, Richard R. Lyman, had two children.

With this in mind don't you think she would had been excommunicated at the same time as her husband if she had been willingly practicing polygamy?

[John Larsen]

Never mind I found my own answer:

Amy B. Lyman Biographical Sketch

Relief Society General President

1940â??1945

Amy Brown Lyman, a gifted administrator, cared deeply about social work. For 16 years she directed the first social welfare department of the Church, which was part of the Relief Society until 1969. She also served in the Utah legislature. While her husband was president of the European mission, she presided over the Church womenâ??s organizations in Europe. During her presidency the Relief Society celebrated its centennial with a membership of 115,000. She led the Relief Society during World War II and emphasized wartime thrift and emergency preparedness as well as relief for war victims. At a time when war industries were pulling many women into the workforce, Sister Lyman focused on strengthening families and championed the role of mothers in the home. She and her husband, Richard R. Lyman, had two children.

With this in mind don't you think she would had been excommunicated at the same time as her husband if she had been willingly practicing polygamy?

It's all speculation. One is left with all sorts of questions since her husband maintained a 20 year relationship with another women who he considered a wife.

[No Touch]

With this in mind don't you think she would had been excommunicated at the same time as her husband if she had been willingly practicing polygamy?

Not necessarily. She didn't perform the "plural marriage", and any such marriage would not be recognized by the Church anyway. Richard Lyman was excommunicated for violationing the Law of Chastity, and assuming Amy Lyman continued the normal role of any wife in a plural marriage, nothing she did could have been construed as a violation of that law.

[Nevo]

Richard Roswell Lyman was also excommunicated for practicing polygamy in 1943.

According to Gary Bergera, Richard Lyman only considered Anna Jacobsen his "prospective plural wife" (listen to Bergera's Sunstone presentation here). I don't think there is any evidence that an actual sealing took place.

[gmormon]

Not necessarily. She didn't perform the "plural marriage", and any such marriage would not be recognized by the Church anyway. Richard Lyman was excommunicated for violationing the Law of Chastity, and assuming Amy Lyman continued the normal role of any wife in a plural marriage, nothing she did could have been construed as a violation of that law.

I beg to disagree if my Grandma had knowingly stayed married to my Grandpa, after finding out about his second wife, she most likely would have been labeled a polygamous too and would have been excommunicated from the church also. You are a still living in polygamy no matter which spouse you are unless you are completely unaware that your spouse has married again while still married to you

[No Touch]

I beg to disagree if my Grandma had knowingly stayed married to my Grandpa, after finding out about his second wife, she most likely would have been labeled a polygamous too and would have been excommunicated from the church also. You are a still living in polygamy no matter which spouse you are unless you are completely unaware that your spouse has married again while still married to you

Perhaps we have different ideas of the burdens we accept when pledging to live the Law of Chastity, but I do not think a wife who stays with a husband she knows is cheating (for any reason) is understood to be in violation of the Law of Chastity.

PS - She would have been labeled a "polygamist", not a "polygamous". While both words can be used as adjectives, only the former works as a noun.

[gmormon]

Perhaps we have different ideas of the burdens we accept when pledging to live the Law of Chastity, but I do not think a wife who stays with a husband she knows is cheating (for any reason) is understood to be in violation of the Law of Chastity.

PS - She would have been labeled a "polygamist", not a "polygamous". While both words can be used as adjectives, only the former works as a noun.

Thanks for the grammer lesson ! However if she/he are willingly participating in a polygamous marriage, she/he is a polygamist. If Sister Lyman knew for twenty years that her husband had a second wife that would have made her a polygamist too.

[No Touch]

Thanks for the grammer lesson ! However if she/he are willingly participating in a polygamous marriage, she/he is a polygamist. If Sister Lyman knew for twenty years that her husband had a second wife that would have made her a polygamist too.

I am not saying it wouldn't make her a polygamist, but the charge against Elder Lyman was not being a polygamist - it was the violation of the Law of Chastity involved.

[gmormon]

I am not saying it wouldn't make her a polygamist, but the charge against Elder Lyman was not being a polygamist - it was the violation of the Law of Chastity involved.

Give me a break my Grandpa was excommunicated for being a polygamist and for breaking the Law of Chasity, but because he was basically a low profile member of the church no press release was given for his excommunication. Whereas Elder Lyman being a high profile member, let us say an Apostle, when he was excommunicated the Church put out a press release, which do you think is less controversial at that time....? I willing to bet if we where to see the report from his Church Court polygamy would have been right up there with the Law of Chasity.

[John Larsen]

I am not saying it wouldn't make her a polygamist, but the charge against Elder Lyman was not being a polygamist - it was the violation of the Law of Chastity involved.

AT least that is the public charge the Church issued. Which is interesting. To charge him with polygamy would have been far more embarrassing for the Church. But if you consider it the accusation still holds even if he considered himself lawfully married in the sight of God.

Has anyone checked the genealogy records to see if he was posthumously sealed to both women?

[No Touch]

AT least that is the public charge the Church issued. Which is interesting. To charge him with polygamy would have been far more embarrassing for the Church. But if you consider it the accusation still holds even if he considered himself lawfully married in the sight of God.

Has anyone checked the genealogy records to see if he was posthumously sealed to both women?

According to FamilySearch.org, he only had one wife.

[ebeddoulos]

Yes indeed, don't let facts spoil your fun.

Richard Roswell Lyman was also excommunicated for practicing polygamy in 1943.

Typical anti-Mormon tactic. When anti-Mormons realize they've lost the argument they misdirect in the faint hope that they can derail the thread or get everyone to change the subject to â?¦ any other subject. This is a classic example.

Please note that one point I made was that the former apostles resigned as opposed to the excommunication of apostle John W. Taylor and another apostleâ?. Also note that the other point I made was that President Smith did not â??throw two apostles (John W. Taylor and someone else) under the bus to satisfy Congressâ? as was stated. Smoot's Senate career was salvaged at the behest of a President of the United States, the oratory of three U.S. Senators and a united front by the Republican Party. I also pointed out that it was four years after the Smoot hearing were over and 5 years after they had resigned that one of the former apostles was excommunicated.

Now Johnny, after I made those points, you arrive and grandly announce like a kindergartner hoping for a star on his forehead, that you have discovered that Richard Roswell Lyman was also excommunicated for practicing polygamy in 1943.â? Of course, you have yet to provide a credible source which actually states that polygamy was involved. Notice I said "credible source" not "innuendo" or "implication". My response in either case is: "Soooo freekin what?" Surely you took pen and paper in hand and determined that this event was almost 50 years after the Manifesto and over 35 years after the Smoot hearings ended, did you not? If you did, then you know that it is totally irrelevant to either the discussion in general or the point which I made in particular. Surely you noticed that Lyman was excommunicated for having his sordid little affair. Surely you researched it and determined that other than Lyman and the trystee, no other Latter-day Saint was involved and that Lyman officiated the ceremony himself. And if you did all that then what does you little nugget of information have to do with the premise of the OP? If you were trying to prove that the church took the Manifesto seriously enough to excommunicate a 73-year old man who was the 5th ranking apostle at the time, you should be commended for doing a pretty good job and I personally thank you.

But that really was not the point you were trying to make was it? Nope, your post was classic anti-Mormon misdirection.

Before I go, here is a little tid-bit of factual information for you:

"Richard Roswell Lyman, towering teetotaling, 73-year-old bigwig of the Mormons (5th-ranking member of the sect's Council of Twelve Apostles), was the subject of a brief, grim announcement from headquarters. â??'Notice is hereby given,'â??it ran, 'that after due hearing before the Council of Twelve Apostles and upon his own confession [he] has been excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints for violation of the Christian law of chastity.'"â??â? (Time, Monday, November 22, 1943)

But as I said before, don't let facts spoil your fun.

Edited: Shucks really really bad spelling, grammar and the like.