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For those who felt deceived


Deborah

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How can one be Decieved by church History if one has never read Church History to begin with? :P

I don't think anyone who hasn't read Church history would claim to have been deceived. Some who subsequently read it feel deceived, not by the history itself, but the wide gap between what is "officially" taught, and what's in the history. But of course, we must be fair, the Church itself has provided that history, even with B.H.Roberts' "emendations", which he felt might be "faith damaging". You have to go to people like the Tanners to find out what he "emended", or maybe Dialogue or Sunstone.

I don't claim to have been "deceived", by the way, just enlightened. I'm not smacking the Church over the head because of this, I just made more informed decisions. I am glad that, very largely, it is Mormon scholars themselves who enlightened me the most. That says something pretty big about their honesty, IMO.

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Some great points. I think however, that people also have a tendency to form an image that has nothing to do with what they've been taught but with the preconceived notion of what ought to be.

For example people, particularly converts, have an image of prophets as some kind of perfect men. Therefore if they find out about Joseph Smith's flaws they start to questin whether he was really a prophet. The reality is that if they were familiar with the OT they would realize that Joseph's faults are pretty tame in comparison to some of those prophets of old.

You seem to insinuate that members, including converts, arenâ??t actually taught this idealized version of prophets by the church itself. Is this what you mean to say?

In regards to the OT, one of the things that initially appealed to me about the church was that it provided a way for me to reconcile with the OT. The way was â??insofar as it is translated correctlyâ?. Part of the reason I became alienated from the protestant faith of my youth was due to finding the Bible, and in particular the OT, morally offensive. Suddenly Mormonism gave me a way to still believe in the Bible while providing a way to reject the morally offensive parts. It just wasnâ??t translated correctly.

Yes, the OT is full of examples of truly morally offensive behavior on the part of Godâ??s leaders. That is a good reason to reject it, in my view â?? but instead mormon apologists embrace that moral culpability as a reason to justify the morally offensive behavior of their prophets.

Like I said, this argument may be effective with a small segment of the population, but in general I would suspect it would sound more like: â??he did it first!â?

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Yes, the OT is full of examples of truly morally offensive behavior on the part of Godâ??s leaders. That is a good reason to reject it, in my view â?? but instead mormon apologists embrace that moral culpability as a reason to justify the morally offensive behavior of their prophets.

Justify or defend, beastie? Often we find our prophets being held to some idealistic level of behavior by our Evangelical critics. The reminders regarding Biblical prophets is appropriate, in that case.

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Justify or defend, beastie? Often we find our prophets being held to some idealistic level of behavior by our Evangelical critics. The reminders regarding Biblical prophets is appropriate, in that case.

Yes, I think that the OT does give LDS apologists an upper hand over EV critics, and the EV critics were the ones I had in mind with whom such reasoning should be effective, even though it doesn't seem to be.

But in the meantime, to the rest of us, it starts to sound as if you really do accept the OT as accurate, including the morally offensive acts on the part of its prophets.

I could never worship that sort of God, even as a protestant - ironically, as I said, one of the things that led me to mormonism. Mormonism seemed to give me a way to retain the good parts of the Bible while feeling free to reject the rest. Think about it - the God of the OT not only justified ethnic cleansing, but rape and the murder of infants. Yeah, that's the kind of God I'd love and adore. Not.

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Yes, I think that the OT does give LDS apologists an upper hand over EV critics, and the EV critics were the ones I had in mind with whom such reasoning should be effective, even though it doesn't seem to be.

But in the meantime, to the rest of us, it starts to sound as if you really do accept the OT as accurate, including the morally offensive acts on the part of its prophets.

I could never worship that sort of God, even as a protestant - ironically, as I said, one of the things that led me to mormonism. Mormonism seemed to give me a way to retain the good parts of the Bible while feeling free to reject the rest. Think about it - the God of the OT not only justified ethnic cleansing, but rape and the murder of infants. Yeah, that's the kind of God I'd love and adore. Not.

That's a different thread for a different day.

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I have somewhat to say. If I stop to think about my brief couple of years on our little planet earth I marvel at the vast amount of time I have wasted and continue to waste. That being said, consider the following:

In discussions about history and the Church's alleged "suppression" of historical "facts" I wonder why the critics think in-depth analysis of historical events would maintain the interest of the average Church member, or even provide anything substantial to their everyday lives. Why don't we spend more time reading, thinking, growing? I love to read and often carry a book. Almost every day someone will approach me and ask "are you reading something for school?" "Nope, just reading some stuff." "What is it?" "It's such-and-such." "Oh. Cool." The conversation ends, never to be resumed. Sometimes a suspicious look or skeptical tone is involved.

Perhaps the immediacy of life stops introspection. The problem is, most people don't care to wonder about sense perception, the nature of reality, historical context, and other philosophical things because those things aren't going to fill their stomachs or make sure the car payment makes it in on time or that little Johnny gets a better math grade. These things aren't easily entertaining for many, either; they require effort. And who has the time? (I suspect we don't really "have" time at all, we make time. But that is a discussion for another thread.)

This probationary state of life harasses us with the "tyranny of the now," and when people get tired they generally want to escape and relax rather than sit and study and seek and possibly confuse themselves. (I am reminded of an apocryphal story of Abraham who was taken up and shown the workings of vast universes; he fell on his face in terror and asked to be taken back to the solid ground.) This tyranny is OK with me; while Mormons assert we are here to gain knowledge, and that the glory of God is intelligence, we realize that day-to-day acts of kindness are more important than understanding the theory of relativity or the age of the earth.

LDS scholar James Allen laments in his review of Grant Palmer's Insiders View that Palmer is largely correct in saying too often the "rank-and-file" of the Church do not pay a lot of attention to historical or philosophical scholarship generated by believing members of the Church. He points out that these more in-depth analysis are not likely to see the light of day in an average Sunday school class. For one thing, the Church is a group of eclectic individuals on different levels of spirituality and intellectuality. Someone has suggested that the Church make a higher and lower tiered Sunday school structure (different from the basic new member class and Sunday school.) This, however, robs the members of the opportunity to be humble, or to be stretched, or may set up a hierarchy of smart kids vs. the short bus folk. Allen points out that the best-selling books are crime novels, cookbooks, and financial help books. I would add the smattering of tacky business models and motivational platitude tomes. Mormons seem to be just as interested in this stuff, which may have its place, but often displaces what I might see as more important.

Some critics of the Church see Church members as wearing blinders and not being aware of the dirty secrets behind Mormonism. I don't buy into this stereotype of the "blind faith, blinders wearing Mormon." I believe many members of the Church know enough about the Church to encourage their participation, foster thought, and increase their service to others, and they receive the fruits of those behaviors which makes Mormonism a vital and real, a "true" aspect of the lives. But we members are still plagued by the same distractions facing other people; crappy TV programs, commercials, trite music, excessive sport interests, body worship, etc. There are even many academics who seem too caught up in studying to notice that their neighbor has hands which hang down and need lifting.

Still, it is difficult to find people who want to talk about the things we talk about on the board here away from the net. We can't spend a bunch of time pontificating on the vast eternities, and even sometimes when we do we are just stroking egos or coming up with severely flawed theories and constructs.

How do you decide where to spend your time, what to read, who to listen to, what your personal responsibility is?

Excellent post. I agree.

Regarding this:

(I am reminded of an apocryphal story of Abraham who was taken up and shown the workings of vast universes; he fell on his face in terror and asked to be taken back to the solid ground.)

Do you happen to have the reference for that? It is interesting to me, and I would like to read it.

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Think about it - the God of the OT not only justified ethnic cleansing, but rape and the murder of infants. Yeah, that's the kind of God I'd love and adore. Not.
you have a very limited perspective if that is what you get from the OT.
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The point I'm trying to make is that Mormons who stop believing in the church are looked down upon or considered "bad" by other members.

A member who obtains new information that causes them to doubt church claims may feel forced to choose between their LDS social networks of family, neighbors and friends - and searching for truth.

Regarding the OP - yes, I have felt deceived about aspects of church history etc.

If I would have learned about these things 25 years ago my life might have been different - because I have based my most important life decisions on the belief that the church is true.

I have never known anyone to be looked upon as bad for having stopped attending church. "What I have seen is a lot of regret that they were not associating with those still attending. The separation was almost always by choice of the one who was not attending as much effort was usually made to help them with any problems they had and to appeal to them to continue their association.

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:P You are now the fifth most viewedymca.gif. Let's party!
Surprise to me. I expected maybe one or two responses, but apparently it is a big issue. I did get my answer and I appreciate all those who responded even though we went off on some tangents.
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Are you denying that these events are in the OT, or are you just claiming that I should have some "wider" perspective that helps me see God's hand in such atrocities?

Beastie can you show me in the OT were god justified rape? Just cant find it in my search, not saying its not there, lot of weird stuff in the OT but some day I will have a answer for that but so far I still believe in that God and Hopefully I will understand the why for now I walk by faith.

Anijen~The run on sentence king.

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This is a sincere question for those who left the church because you felt that the church hid something from you, or who advocate the church be more forthcoming about what you consider the negatives. Assuming you were able to learn these things sooner, what difference would it have made on whether you left the church or not. I don't see how it makes any difference if some of the things that turn you away from the church are learned earlier or later. Perhaps you can explain it.

This would not directly apply to me because I have not left; I remain active but privately I have major disagreements. I am not so much bitter as I am saddened and highly disappointed that the world I grew up believing existed does not appear to really exist. I see this as partly due to the Church (in my view) concealing the real lives of members and leaders and giving ordinary members like me the impression that living Church standards can be reasonably expected of me and that there is something wrong with me if I don't manage to do it. I have now come to believe that some of the standards are simply based upon misperceptions about human nature.

Intellectually, I can reconcile the fact that the Church can have serious doctrinal errors and still be endorsed by God with priesthood authority. But in a day-to-day practical sense, it is awfully difficult to remain active and to give the false appearance of devoutness while privately having serious misgivings and not being permitted to voice them without being branded an apostate. When it comes down to it, I suppose I could say that the only thing that keeps me hanging on is the belief, or at least the hope, that one day, things will change, and the leadership of the church will have the foresight and the humility to be open to revelation from God to correct the serious errors. But I fear it will not be in my lifetime, so perhaps it is simply a cross that I and countless others will have to bear in silence.

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I see this as partly due to the Church (in my view) concealing the real lives of members and leaders and giving ordinary members like me the impression that living Church standards can be reasonably expected of me and that there is something wrong with me if I don't manage to do it. I have now come to believe that some of the standards are simply based upon misperceptions about human nature.
This is an interesting comment and I'm wondering what it refers to. I've been a member of the church for over 40 years and I don't think I've ever felt the leaders' lives were concealed. In fact I've always thought of them as real people with real flaws which has in fact helped me deal with my own imperfections. I don't think any of us are expected to be perfect.

You have to understand that it is Christ who taught that the natural man is an enemy to God. Whatever part of human nauture which holds us back, God has given us the power to overcome through the Atonement. However, I don't think God expects us to do it with no effort and without falling down.

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It appears the church is not doing a very good job of concealing these _________ (fill in the blank). It seems they are being found out and from the churches own sources. You would think that men as intelligent and with as much power as these men have would have an air tight lid on it. "I was deceived" for some reason just doesn't hold water for me. Just my HO.

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I have never known anyone to be looked upon as bad for having stopped attending church. "What I have seen is a lot of regret that they were not associating with those still attending. The separation was almost always by choice of the one who was not attending as much effort was usually made to help them with any problems they had and to appeal to them to continue their association.

I didn't say "stopped attending." I said "stopped believing."

That means you are an apostate.

apostate = bad

right?

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Beastie can you show me in the OT were god justified rape? Just cant find it in my search, not saying its not there, lot of weird stuff in the OT but some day I will have a answer for that but so far I still believe in that God and Hopefully I will understand the why for now I walk by faith.

Hi, anijen, imagine meeting on a nonMesoamerican thread. :P

Hereâ??s where God justifies rape:

Numbers 31

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian.

4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13

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I didn't say "stopped attending." I said "stopped believing."

That means you are an apostate.

apostate = bad

right?

No not bad. It is sad to see someone lose something that once brought so much joy to their lives and as a result they cut themselves off from friends who care.

I am not denying that there are some who may feel that way but I don't know any. The members I know do not think the person is bad but it is bad that they sever ties with with friend who care.

I really don't know anyone in the church that has severed ties with those who have left. I do know a few who have left who have severed ties with church friends.

Not scientific but it is my experience.

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Then I'm surprised you would make some of the comments you do.

What another receives about his faith has nothing to do with me. I already told you about my friend who found her faith elsewhere and I was happy for her. She wasn't looking for the same thing I was. I was looking for the true church and found it. I don't know why anyone should be upset about how sure I am about my belief if they are really sure about what they believe. I further don't know why critics want to create such a wedge that they continue to position us against them when we ourselves don't do that.

When thinking of other's religious experiences, I think of what Jesus said to His Apostles when they saw others casting out devils:

"And Jesus said unto him...he that is not against us is for us" Luke 9:50.

If people of other religions have spiritual experiences that help them to keep (or have the desire to keep) the two great commandments, then I believe their inspiration came from heaven. Certainly God will seek out all His children (even those who reject the religion we have to offer).

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......If people of other religions have spiritual experiences that help them to keep (or have the desire to keep) the two great commandments, then I believe their inspiration came from heaven. Certainly God will seek out all His children (even those who reject the religion we have to offer).

Well said, MorgBot! I feel the same way.

Red

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Do you happen to have the reference for that? It is interesting to me, and I would like to read it.

This is known in mystical circles as the "machinery of the Universe" experience. When you read in scripture (or religious material) that someone realizes that "man is less than the dust of the earth" then you kinda know they have had the experience.

Hel. 12: 7

7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.

Still, we know we are children of God. It's just so overwhelming.

Kinda like when you have the 'sword' experience

Heb. 4: 12

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

HiJolly

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