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David Bokovoy

Rising From the Dust

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I think you'll find that David Bokovoy was also talking about Lehi. Dust isn't about kingship, but being raised from it by God is. My point is that both Lehi and Isaiah in the above-mentioned verses are not talking about the same thing that 1 Kings 16:2 is. I haven't read the German book, so I can't comment on how Bokovoy uses its conclusions.

I only have a high school diploma, what with being conscripted, serving a mission and now getting married soon, I haven't had the time or money yet.

Sounds like you have a very interesting background. You're certainly intelligent and clearly have a strong grasp of both Hebrew and the book of Isaiah. I appreciated learning from you about the mourning ritual featured in the previous chapters. That was a very nice insight.

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In browsing through Gordon's Ugaritic Handbook I ran across this little item that may prove somewhat relevant to this entire discussion. If anyone asks, Ugaritic studies are absolutely post and pillar in line with Biblical research and studies. Ugaritic is the key to many an item(s) in the Bible, without doubt or question, one of the singular most important aspects of understanding the Bible comes from Ugarit.

from the heights of Ṣapānu,

him who would have caused (him) to flee like a bird (from) (the seat of) his power,

Him who would have banished him from his royal throne,

from (his) restingâ??place, from the seat of his dominion.

So, what enemy has arisen against Baʿlu,

(what) adversary against Cloudâ??Rider?

Hallo, William W. ; Younger, K. Lawson: The Context of Scripture. Leiden; New York : Brill, 1997, S. 'nt 3:44

Gordon was discussing the meaning of "Probable examples of q(u)tul: ṭrd (ʿnt:III:44) â??drive out!â??

Gordon, Cyrus Herzl: Ugaritic Textbook Grammar, Texts in Transliteration, Cuneiform Selections, Glossary, Indices. Rome : Pontifical Biblical Institute, 1998 (Analecta Orientalia, 38), S. 77

I thought it interesting to see how rising is associated with kingship and throne, however in a negative aspect, here saying someone arose against the throne.....

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Probably because Hebrew is my native tongue.

David, in Hebrew you have to shake yourself of something. Hitnaer me'afar, me'avak, me'achrayut, etc.

I would translate Isaiah 66:11 as ye shall have sucked from and been nourished by the breast of her consolation and shall have sucked and found pleasure in the nipple of her honour. I presume that the KJV translators were a little squeamish about translating the verse properly. Ziz is one of the Biblical terms for a nipple.

Nin'arti ke'arbe means I was tossed about as a locust. That is, by the wind. Note that what was translated as walking has an unusual form- nehelachti. It implies not having much say in the matter of where you are walking to or how you do it. The verse is about utter helplessness and physical infirmity.

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Probably because Hebrew is my native tongue.

No offense, Brother, but if thatâ??s true, then Modern Israeli Hebrew is your native tongue, not Biblical Hebrew. Biblical Hebrew is a scholarly construct, based upon the collection of books that appear in the Hebrew Bible.

Biblical Hebrew is not a true "language" in the sense that it does not represent a single spoken dialect, but rather a diversity of written speech reflective of separate historic time periods, places, and genres. We know that the books in the Old Testament constitute an incomplete representation of the range of languages actually spoken in ancient Israel.

Since Modern Hebrew and the biblical lexicon overlap, native speakers of Modern Israeli Hebrew know much of the basic vocabulary of the Bible. However, Biblical Hebrew and MIH are two separate languages. Hence, no one can understand the Hebrew Bible by only knowing Modern Hebrew. There exist significant differences in vocabulary, spelling, verb formation, use of verbal suffixes, and word order between the two languages.

Donâ??t worry though, we native speakers of English face a similar challenge when trying to interpret Old English.

The separation between Old English and Modern English is less than half the distance that exists between modern and Biblical Hebrew. The fact that modern English is my native language makes little difference in an effort to interpret the opening line of Beowulf correctly:

Old English: Hw

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But I have also been studying Biblical Hebrew ever since I could read. In my experience, the gulf between Old English and Modern is far wider than Biblical and Modern Hebrew. There is a small difference in syntax and word order, but it is a small difference, far more telling in the awkwardness of certain constructs to the modern ear than in a huge shift in meaning. Many of the differences also consist in things that we don't use anymore, but recognise.

I always love it when people tell me that because I know modern Hebrew, that means that I don't really understand Biblical.

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I always love it when people tell me that because I know modern Hebrew, that means that I don't really understand Biblical.

Of course I didn't say that because you know modern Hebrew, that means that you don't really understand Biblical Hebrew. No need to be so dramatic. Since there is some overlap, an understanding of MIH can help in interpreting the Bible. However, I said correctly that they are two distinct languages, or at minimum two distinct dialects.

Therefore, Biblical Hebrew is not your native language and as I illustrated, your effort to interpret Isaiah 52:2 is grammatically problematic.

As an illustration, consider, for example, Song of Songs 4:1. In biblical Hebrew, the root gls(h) means "to descend," not "ski" as in modern Hebrew. Hence the proper translation is: "Your hair is like a flock of goats descending from Mount Gilead," not "You hair is like a flock of goats skiing down Mount Gilead."

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I would assume it meant skiing only if I limited my understanding to one very limited meaning of the modern word. What we have done is to expand the meaning to include skiing. In fact, an Israeli is likelier to say ski than glisha. Even in the context of sports people are likelier to assume you mean surfing or hang-gliding. The reason glisha can include the above is that our concept of it is based on its use in the Tanakh.

I respectfully suggest that you get a second opinion on your reading of that Isaiah verse. I think you'll find that hitnaari requires a meh. It is a very odd reading if hitnaari stands alone.

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I respectfully suggest that you get a second opinion on your reading of that Isaiah verse. I think you'll find that hitnaari requires a meh. It is a very odd reading if hitnaari stands alone.

And I would respectfully suggest that you return and carefully read the grammatical evidence I presented in the post while remembering that Modern Israeli Hebrew is simply a linguistic reconstruction of the literary remains of Hebrew.

How do you know that in Biblical Hebrew hitnaair requires a min? As a verbal form, nâ??r appears only one time throughout the entire Hebrew Bible in the Hitpael, namely Isaiah 52:2. Moreover, the root nâ??r only appears one time total in connection with the preposition min, i.e. Isaiah 52:2.

I'm sorry but you simply cannot establish that the verb hinaari "requires" anything based upon a single attestation.

Based upon what we know of Biblical grammar, the verb only requires a preposition min if the statement signifies a movement â??fromâ? the location where the subject originates, in this case, the dust.

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Ok, lets look at Isaiah 63. Habet mishamaim.

2nd Samuel 1:23. Me'arayot gavaru, minesharim kalu.

Genesis 48:19. Achiv hakaton yigdal mimenu.

Exodus 4:26. Vayiref, mimenu.

Exodus 12:10. Velo totiru mimenu, ad-boker; vehanotar mimenu ad-boker, ba'esh tisrofu.

Just a few instances where the prefix mi does not imply a movement from the location where the subject originates.

I especially love reading Gen 48:19 with that statement of yours in mind. His younger brother shall grow from out of him. Hmm.

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I especially love reading Gen 48:19 with that statement of yours in mind. His younger brother shall grow from out of him. Hmm.

Bear in mind, itâ??s not my personal statement (though I subscribe to its accuracy). Itâ??s the academic understanding of the preposition featured in Waltke and Oâ??Connorâ??s classic treatise on Biblical Hebrew syntax.

Your examples are irrelevant to our discussion. The preposition min can function as a locational marker describing the place where a person originates, but its basic sense is the ablative, meaning that it denotes a movement away from a specified point.

For your interpretation, you want min to function as a direct object marker. I have illustrated via the Hebrew Bible that this is grammatically impossible.

Again, look at the analogy with Isaiah 66:11.

What I had hoped to share with you via this thread is the methodology scholars employ for determining grammatical meaning.

Since Biblical Hebrew is not a true "language," we use the biblical text itself, together with ancient Semitic cognates, to determine grammatical nuances.

Until you learn to appreciate this methodology, Iâ??m afraid that no one will ever take your interpretations too seriously.

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David, I am using the text. How is hitnaari me'afar different to any of the other examples I have given?

Is that the same Isaiah verse where you misunderstood ziz?

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David, I am using the text.

Yes, but youâ??re not using the text correctly. Youâ??ve repeatedly demonstrated an inability to recognize the way grammatical nuances and meaning in Biblical Hebrew are established via the text.

You cannot claim, for instance, that in Biblical Hebrew hitnaair "requires" a min when as a verbal form, nâ??r appears only one time throughout the entire Hebrew Bible in the Hitpael and the root nâ??r only appears one time total in connection with the preposition min, both of which are the example we're discussing in Isaiah 52:2.

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way that one cannot establish any rule for hitnaair and min based upon a single attestation. In order to establish your assertion, you would have to have a few examples of hitnaair to evaluate and you donâ??t.

How is hitnaari me'afar different to any of the other examples I have given?

The difference lies in the fact that the spatial senses of min are both static and dynamic. Context, as well as parallel grammatical usage establishes specific meaning which is why since Isaiah 66:11 features the precise grammatical pattern witnessed in 52:2 with a Hitpael verb followed by the preposition min plus a noun that 66:11 is directly relevant to our discussion whereas your examples are not.

Is that the same Isaiah verse where you misunderstood ziz?

My heavens!

Iâ??m fully aware that the obscure Hebrew noun ziz reflects the Akkadian word ziizu which refers to the teat of a cow. I've actually spent more than a decade studying Akkadian in an academic setting. The point, however, couldnâ??t be more irrelevant for our discussion, which is why for simplification sake I retained the King James interpretation.

How ridiculous.

Besides, the Brown Driver and Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament suggests that the term denotes â??abundance, fullnessâ? (pg. 265), so of course I had no need to get bogged down by such an irrelevant point to the discussion at hand.

Could you please explain how the fact that ziz refers to a nipple supports your misreading of Isaiah 52:2?

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Hey all,

I was looking into an entirely different subject and ran into this. Yes, this subject again! I thought it was interesting in light of the idea of sitting on a throne as David B. has talked about. This in the BDB, p. 442, column B, with scriptures fully cited out so we can see them. This is part of the entry under the Hebrew יָשַׁב

Ex 18:13; Jo 4:12 (cf. ψ 9:5 Is 28:6); hence abs. of sitting as king or judge Ex 18:14 ψ 61:8 Mal 3:3, יושׁבים Is 10:13, perhaps Am 1:5, 8, especially of י׳ sitting (enthroned), ψ 2:4; 9:8; 29:10; 55:20; 102:13 La 5:19, so in ישֵׁב (הַ)כְּרוּבִים 1 S 4:4 2 S 6:2 = 1 Ch 13:6, 2 K 19:15 ψ 99:1; ישֵׁב תְּהִלּוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל ψ 22:4 (v. c. עַל, supr.); by meton. of thrones, for the judges sitting on them שָׁמָּה יָֽשְׁבוּ כִסְאוֹת לְמִשְׁפָּט ψ 122:5;

Exodus 18:13

13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.

Joel 4:12

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

Popup cf.

confer, compare.

Psalm 9:5

4 For thou hast maintaineda my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.

Isaiah 28:6

6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

Popup abs.

absolute.

Exodus 18:14

14 And when Mosesâ?? father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?

Psalm 61:8

7 He shall abide before God for ever: O prepare mercy and truth, which may preserve him.

Malachi 3:3

3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Isaiah 10:13

13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiantd man:

Amos 1:5

5 I will break also the bar of Damascus, and cut off the inhabitant from the plaina of Aven, and him that holdeth the sceptre from the house of Eden: and the people of Syria shall go into captivity unto Kir, saith the LORD.

Amos 1:8

8 And I will cut off the inhabitant from Ashdod, and him that holdeth the sceptre from Ashkelon, and I will turn mine hand against Ekron: and the remnant of the Philistines shall perish, saith the Lord GOD.

Psalm 2:4

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Psalm 9:8

7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.

Psalm 29:10

10 The LORD sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever.

Psalm 55:20

19 God shall hear, and afflict them, even he that abideth of old. Selah. Because they have no changes, therefore they fear not God.

Psalm 102:13

12 But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

Lamentations 5:19

19 Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation.

1 Samuel 4:4

4 So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from thence the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth between the cherubims: and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant of God.

2 Samuel 6:2

2 And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.

1 Chronicles 13:6

6 And David went up, and all Israel, to Baalah, that is, to Kirjathjearim, which belonged to Judah, to bring up thence the ark of God the LORD, that dwelleth between the cherubims, whose name is called on it.

2 Kings 19:15

15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

Psalm 99:1

1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moveda.

Psalm 22:4

3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

Psalm 122:5

5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.

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