Rising From the Dust

[mfbukowski]

http://phoenixandturtle.net/excerptmill/Hooke.htm

Amazing link. Thanks! So much there is directly relevant to this, but one thing popped out which relates also to my discussion with e=mc2

196

The idea of the kingship of Yahweh in Israel as in Canaan possesses cosmic significance. His battle with the Chaos powers, the Sea-Dragon and her helpers, and His victory over them has enabled Him to take His throne as highest ruler of the cosmos, which He has now created out of chaos. This notion is constantly recurring in the Hebrew psalms of enthronement, where we read such hymns of praise as the following:

Yahweh is King,

majesty he hath put on,

Yahweh hath put on.

Yea, the world is established

and doth not waver.

Again, the idea of "putting on" majesty relating to the garments in the BOM reference

[e=mc2]

Amazing link. Thanks! So much there is directly relevant to this, but one thing popped out which relates also to my discussion with e=mc2

Again, the idea of "putting on" majesty relating to the garments in the BOM reference

OHMIHECK! You are continually outdating me - LOL! Keep er comin and we'll have a 100 pager to read......woo hoo!

[David Bokovoy]

Hey Thanks Kerry!

BTW, I just recently stumbled across your assessment of my JBL article made while shooting a shotgun.

Really enjoyed the presentation, in fact, I shared the link with my Harvard Institute class just to let them know that there actually is somebody out there crazier than I am about the topic.

It was a great honor! No way I could have taught that better myself (and not just because you did so while holding a gun).

You're the best!

[LifeOnaPlate]

DB, did you get my PM?

[mfbukowski]

OHMIHECK! You are continually outdating me - LOL! Keep er comin and we'll have a 100 pager to read......woo hoo!

Well how many do you want? There is no doubt that the imagery is there, and abundant. These are SOME:

Zech. 3: 3-5

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.

Psalm 104

1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.

Isaiah 61

9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the Lord hath blessed.

10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Job 29: 14

14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

Isa. 22: 21

21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

Obvious references not included here are the clothing of Aaron and his sons for service in the temple -- those references can be found in Exodus Chapters 20- 40+

And then removing a garment as a metaphor for death

Isaiah 51

4

[mfbukowski]

I've emerged as a Born-Again, non-traditional, non-fundamentalist Mormon with a primary interest in unconditional love, if that makes any sense.

I've seen a trend to revive seeing the unifying force in the Godhead as love, which is an interesting theological notion. It fits well with the traditional Mormon idea of unity in "purpose" including a more familial model of the Godhead, and also can be seen as something understandable to non- LDS Christians, and is also obviously a great replacement for the creedal notions of "being" and "substance" which no one can possibly understand. Is this kind of what you mean here? It also solves I think one of the traditional questions critics of the creedal trinity bring up with the idea of "being":

If there can be three persons unified in "being", could there be more, and how many more are possible? Most concede that there could in principle be more persons then unified with the trinity, leaving open some kind of possibility of real theosis for others, which of course creedalists don't want to admit.

But if the unifying principle is love, this of course fits with a more familial view of the Godhead and at the same time gives us an interesting perspective on exaltation consisting in sharing in that unconditional love and familial relationship with the Godhead on an eternal basis.

Is this kinda what you are talking about?

[e=mc2]

Hey Thanks Kerry!

BTW, I just recently stumbled across your assessment of my JBL article made while shooting a shotgun.

Really enjoyed the presentation, in fact, I shared the link with my Harvard Institute class just to let them know that there actually is somebody out there crazier than I am about the topic.

It was a great honor! No way I could have taught that better myself (and not just because you did so while holding a gun).

You're the best!

Nah, I take my cues from your - GRIN! I have a lot more that I am sharing also. Thanks for your ideas and themes.

[e=mc2]

Well how many do you want? There is no doubt that the imagery is there, and abundant. These are SOME:

Obvious references not included here are the clothing of Aaron and his sons for service in the temple -- those references can be found in Exodus Chapters 20- 40+

And then removing a garment as a metaphor for death

And yet another BOM bullseye, (number 3) this one I think very significant because the references from 2 Nephi might be criticized as copying imagery from Isaiah and "re-arranging it" whereas these references are from Mosiah, and actually take similar imagery but reverse it-- so that a burning garment is a metaphor for death and presumably hell

And lest we doubt that that reversal is not paralleled in Hebrew scriptures, we have the "mirror image" of the original passages in question, where instead of standing up and putting on the robe/garment, the robe/garment is taken off, and the wearer sits down on the ground instead of the throne.

The references look pretty solid to me!

This is GREAT! Just as I think I have a handle onthe scriptures, and you come along and show me how much more work I really have to do. Ahhhhhhhh, the fun to look forward to! YEAH BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL! I really am sorta normal......well...... almost. Once again, thanks for the ideas and scriptures. I will analyze them in the Hebrew and Greek and come up with yet another paper that is truly 10 times larger than the one I just posted. Sigh..... so many papers and ideas to write about, so little time. And it IS Urroner's fault!

[ssbn623]

Here is something from Margaret Barker's, "Christmas: The Original Story" that might be related. Page 138-139.

"'Enoch' recounts his own 'birth' in the holy of holies. He saw the face of the Lord and heard the song of the heavenly host. Then the archangel Michael was told to take Enoch from his earthly clothes, that is, from his mortal body, to anoint him, and dress him in the garments of the Glory of God...."

(2 Enoch 22)

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Here is something from Margaret Barker's, "Christmas: The Original Story" that might be related. Page 138-139.

"'Enoch' recounts his own 'birth' in the holy of holies. He saw the face of the Lord and heard the song of the heavenly host. Then the archangel Michael was told to take Enoch from his earthly clothes, that is, from his mortal body, to anoint him, and dress him in the garments of the Glory of God...."

(2 Enoch 22)

That's great!

[e=mc2]

Here is something from Margaret Barker's, "Christmas: The Original Story" that might be related. Page 138-139.

"'Enoch' recounts his own 'birth' in the holy of holies. He saw the face of the Lord and heard the song of the heavenly host. Then the archangel Michael was told to take Enoch from his earthly clothes, that is, from his mortal body, to anoint him, and dress him in the garments of the Glory of God...."

(2 Enoch 22)

Yes! And my good and dear friend professor Dr. Andrei Orlov has written much on this exact theme.

[volgadon]

Have any of you tried sitting down outside in Israel? Trust me, you'll have to shake off the dust when you get up. Anyway, this expression has nothing to do with kings, but with mourning.

[Aquilifer]

Anyway, this expression has nothing to do with kings, but with mourning.

I dunno, the OP has some quotes about kingship from a book with a really cool looking German title. Can you match that?

[volgadon]

Ken ani choshev sheani yachol ubekalut. =)

[William Schryver]

Ken ani choshev sheani yachol ubekalut. =)

So, if you think you can do it -- then why haven't you?

Where is David anyway? Why am I left to translate this stuff when he's the one who started the thread in the first place?

[volgadon]

I think I just did, din't I? =)

Another point is that putting on garments doesn't mean putting on flesh, it means dressing in decent clothes as opposed to torn sackcloth.

[Avatar4321]

Why are subtle connections most impressive instead of least impressive? Apparently they have some aesthetic-emotional value that only translates between already-believers.

I would think that was obvious. If you were trying to con someone youd be certain to make sure tehre are obvious connections. It would be in the details that lies would be exposed.

The fact that there are subtle connections is very important because the more subtle ones Joseph made, the clearer it becomes that he didnt just make it all up.

[USU78]

What about the Suffering Servant issue? Maybe I missed where the connection with Hezekiah was made here.

Isaiah and others wrote of the King putting off the clothing of repentence (sackcloth and ashes), arising from the dust (the nearness of death and despair) and re-assuming his robes of office.

It should hardly be surprising that the Lehites, who left the Levant relatively hard upon these events, including the miraculous healing of the King, followed up so closely by the miraculous deliverance of Jerusalem, would retain these things so vividly. They likely would have even without the brass/bronze plates.

These Suffering Servant songs are, to me along with the Song of the Bow, some of the most beautiful, vivid and meaningful of the Tanakh. The implications for the nonroyal individual are staggering in the then world where only the King, being royal, becomes divine: the people and the land all share in the restitution wrought by G-d.

[David Bokovoy]

Have any of you tried sitting down outside in Israel? Trust me, you'll have to shake off the dust when you get up. Anyway, this expression has nothing to do with kings, but with mourning.

Of course I'm going to respectfully disagree and continue to accept Walter Brueggemann's well-documented observation that rising from the dust functions as a royal motif where God raises an individual out of obscurity to a position of kingship.

This observation carries crucial implications for a a correct historical interpretation of the depiction of humanity in the Garden Story.

When Yahweh forms the first man out of the dust there is no mourning witnessed in the text, nor should we associate mourning with the enthronement of Jehu whom Yahweh "exalted... out of the dust, and made.. prince" (1 Kings 16:2), etc., etc., etc.

[volgadon]

Or obscurity.

[volgadon]

What I guess I'm trying to say is that whilst Lehi might have been evoking the kingship metaphor, we shouldn't confuse it with what Isaiah is saying, where the imagery relates to mourning.

There are two schools of thought on this verse. The first is that it means sit down on a chair, like a human being again. The other theory is that shvi is a form of shviah (captive), paralleling that word in the end of the verse.

The other problem I have with the kingship interpretation in 2nd Nephi is that the verb herimotcha does not imply that the subject was seated.

Thanks for the insight, David.

One of the things that makes this connection of interest is that Lehi is not simply quoting from the Bible. The closest parallel to this phrase is in Isaiah, and says something different.

Here Isaiah does not say to "arise from the dust," but to "Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down." Although the original in Hebrew may have a different meaning, reading it in English I have always thought it to refer to somebody simply sitting on the ground and getting dirty, who is told to shake off the dust, arise and sit down.

I confess this has never made much sense to me, because I had thought the person was already sitting; and yet if that were the case, "Jerusalem" is told to shake off the dust (before standing), stand up, and sit down again, which seems rather pointless. I mean, if "Jerusalem" can shake off the dust while sitting down, why the bother of standing only to sit down once more?

David's insight gives this passage more meaning, I think.

And if this is the correct understanding of the passage in the original Hebrew, it seems that Moroni understood it in the same way:

Could this be an instance of the Book of Mormon altering an Isaiah quote from the KJV in such a way as to more accurately convey the meaning of the underlying Hebrew?

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. Ron Beron's quote from the paper dealing with geo-personification, though less than pellucid in the Bible, finds corroboration in the Book of Moses:

And here, may I add that David's insight made the bolded part click for me just now? The filthiness that has gone out of the earth refers to wicked mankind, but the fact the earth states it has "gone forth out of me" surely refers to the initial creation of man "from the dust of the earth."

[volgadon]

Of course I'm going to respectfully disagree and continue to accept Walter Brueggemann's well-documented observation that rising from the dust functions as a royal motif where God raises an individual out of obscurity to a position of kingship.

This observation carries crucial implications for a a correct historical interpretation of the depiction of humanity in the Garden Story.

When Yahweh forms the first man out of the dust there is no mourning witnessed in the text, nor should we associate mourning with the enthronement of Jehu whom Yahweh "exalted... out of the dust, and made.. prince" (1 Kings 16:2), etc., etc., etc.

Except that it doesn't apply to Isaiah's verse, nor, IMHO to Lehi's, as in the other instances the Lord does the raising.

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Volgadon,

Thanks for keeping alive an interesting discussion. I appreciate your contributions, though I disagree with your perspectives.

What I guess I'm trying to say is that whilst Lehi might have been evoking the kingship metaphor, we shouldn't confuse it with what Isaiah is saying, where the imagery relates to mourning.

Ok, letâ??s look at the verse:

â??Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zionâ? (Isaiah 52: 2)

Now, what evidence do you have for connecting the phrase â??from the dustâ? with mourning? I just donâ??t see it.

In Hebrew, the phrase â??from the dustâ? derives from the preposition min â??from/out of,â? the definite article â??the,â? followed by the noun â??afar meaning, â??dust.â? This grammatical form appears nine times in the Old Testament.

Throughout the Bible, to be in the dust, does not denote â??mourning.â? The phrase refers specifically to a state of humility. Note Psalm 113:7:

â??He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill.â?

It is the poor and the needy who appear in the dust, not those in a state of mourning. Hence, the expression specifically denotes a state of humility, which is why rising from the dust to enthronement provides such a poignant metaphor in the Hebrew Bible for kingship. Note 1 Samuel 2:8:

â??He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORDâ??s, and he hath set the world upon them.â?

God raises the humble from the dust and allows them to inherit the throne of glory as rulers.

In Isaiah 52: 2, the specific phrase commanding Judah to â??shake thyself from the dust,â? reflects the earlier Isaiahanic passage where min plus definite article, plus â??afar appears four times, functioning as a leitwort or â??theme wordâ?:

â??And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dustâ? (Isaiah 29:4)

Hence, Israel is told in Isaiah 52:2 to rise from her state of humility (i.e. captivity) expressed in Isaiah 29:4 and sit down.

There are two schools of thought on this verse. The first is that it means sit down on a chair, like a human being again. The other theory is that shvi is a form of shviah (captive), paralleling that word in the end of the verse.

The verb shvi â??to sit downâ? is certainly a play on shivah â??captive.â? However, given the context, in my mind, the word clearly reflects the notion of rising from a position of humility to a type of enthronement in order to rule over the nations of the earth as YHWHâ??s servant. This is in fact the message concerning Judah witnessed throughout Deutero-Isaiah.

best,

--DB

[volgadon]

David, you need to look at Isaiah 52 in context with the preceding chapters, where Israel (or Jerusalem) is mourning. I guess you aren't very familiar with mourning in the Middle East and the Bible. I grew up in the poor developement town of Hatzor Haglilit where most of the poulation was North African and Middle Eastern Jews. In my childhood I've seen people rent their clothes (and their hair) and throw dirt on their heads and wallow in the dust from grief. I know that such anecdotal evidence isn't enough, so here are two Biblical examples from off the top of my head. David as his son from Bathsheba was dying and Tamar after she was raped by Absalom. Mourning was not just for death, but for a loss of virtue, divorce, over affliction and when taken captive.

It isn't min haafar that is important, it is HARIMOTICHA- I HAVE RAISED THEE UP. That is what is used when the context is one of kingship.

Hello Volgadon,

Thanks for keeping alive an interesting discussion. I appreciate your contributions, though I disagree with your perspectives.

Ok, letâ??s look at the verse:

â??Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zionâ? (Isaiah 52: 2)

Now, what evidence do you have for connecting the phrase â??from the dustâ? with mourning? I just donâ??t see it.

In Hebrew, the phrase â??from the dustâ? derives from the preposition min â??from/out of,â? the definite article â??the,â? followed by the noun â??afar meaning, â??dust.â? This grammatical form appears nine times in the Old Testament.

Throughout the Bible, to be in the dust, does not denote â??mourning.â? The phrase refers specifically to a state of humility. Note Psalm 113:7:

â??He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill.â?

It is the poor and the needy who appear in the dust, not those in a state of mourning. Hence, the expression specifically denotes a state of humility, which is why rising from the dust to enthronement provides such a poignant metaphor in the Hebrew Bible for kingship. Note 1 Samuel 2:8:

â??He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORDâ??s, and he hath set the world upon them.â?

God raises the humble from the dust and allows them to inherit the throne of glory as rulers.

In Isaiah 52: 2, the specific phrase commanding Judah to â??shake thyself from the dust,â? reflects the earlier Isaiahanic passage where min plus definite article, plus â??afar appears four times, functioning as a leitwort or â??theme wordâ?:

â??And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dustâ? (Isaiah 29:4)

Hence, Israel is told in Isaiah 52:2 to rise from her state of humility (i.e. captivity) expressed in Isaiah 29:4 and sit down.

The verb shvi â??to sit downâ? is certainly a play on shivah â??captive.â? However, given the context, in my mind, the word clearly reflects the notion of rising from a position of humility to a type of enthronement in order to rule over the nations of the earth as YHWHâ??s servant. This is in fact the message concerning Judah witnessed throughout Deutero-Isaiah.

best,

--DB

[volgadon]

It is also a mistake to equate min haafar with kingship everytime. The verb used is very important. BTW in Isaiah 29 it is me'afar tisach. In Isaiah 52 it is shake OFF the dust.