Sevenbak Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Stumbled on this awhile back, and was intrigued enough to contact the guy asking for more info. After a whole lot of questions about why I wanted to know, he never told me what I was after. It's mostly likely a very elaborate and labor intensive hoax, or something he's siting on not sharing any info for personal reasons. I highly suspect the former.Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has heard of this or this organization before?http://www.bmsf.net/americabeforecolumbus/BMS00001A.html Link to comment
hagoth7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Stumbled on this awhile back, and was intrigued enough to contact the guy asking for more info.....I'm wondering if anyone has heard of this or this organization before?Mr. Erickson and his group are attempting to substantiate the Book of Mormon - but have claimed that "the existence and proof of these ancient people and their teachings prove that those who have labeled or allowed these artifacts to be labeled phony, are they themselves phony. This includes professors and teachers of higher learning in our educational systems, heads of the Smithsonian Institute, Prophets, Seers, Revelators, leaders, professors and teachers within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, as well as others of other organizations."Splinter group. Link to comment
Connolly Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Regarding ziff: Its a Hebrew word for metallic shinny or bright. I think we have no clues as to what element or alloy it may have been referring to. IMO, considering the advanced metallurgical technology of the BoM people, it was probably a high grade stainless steel or chrome. On a more serious note, I think there are a couple of possibilities.It might have been an alloy unfamiliar to either Mormon or Joseph, so a descriptive term was used. For example, we know from ancient writings that there was an ancient alloy called hepatzion, but we have few clues what it was. If there are any surviving ancient samples we haven't identified them as hepatzion, nor is it likely we could make the connection with certainty. Likewise we might find remnants of ziff, but without more information, we would have no way of knowing if it was the substance referred to in Mosiah or not.Another possibility is that it might simply be a catch all word for all things deemed valuable because of the luster. This idea appeals to me as it passes the Occam's razor test in context in Mosiah 11. King Noah, in his greed, could have been eager to grab everything that even remotely resembled value, whether it actually was or not. Link to comment
robuchan Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Regarding ziff: Its a Hebrew word for metallic shinny or bright. I think we have no clues as to what element or alloy it may have been referring to. IMO, considering the advanced metallurgical technology of the BoM people, it was probably a high grade stainless steel or chrome. On a more serious note, I think there are a couple of possibilities.It might have been an alloy unfamiliar to either Mormon or Joseph, so a descriptive term was used. For example, we know from ancient writings that there was an ancient alloy called hepatzion, but we have few clues what it was. If there are any surviving ancient samples we haven't identified them as hepatzion, nor is it likely we could make the connection with certainty. Likewise we might find remnants of ziff, but without more information, we would have no way of knowing if it was the substance referred to in Mosiah or not.Another possibility is that it might simply be a catch all word for all things deemed valuable because of the luster. This idea appeals to me as it passes the Occam's razor test in context in Mosiah 11. King Noah, in his greed, could have been eager to grab everything that even remotely resembled value, whether it actually was or not.I hadn't heard that ziff was a Hebrew word before. I read this article.http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publicatio...um=2&id=222What is the Hebrew pronunciation for the word that equates to ziff as in brightness or splendor? Is this word used in the Bible or other Hebrew writings as the name of a metal? Is the theory that the Lehites created the metal and the name? Link to comment
Marmonboy Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Maybe it's a reference to that beautiful shiny green obsidian found in Mesoamerica. It makes great tools and flakes off in long, thin, razor-sharp blades, and occasionally was used to make ornaments.Just a random thought. Link to comment
Urloony Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I've always been under the impression that ziff was Tumbaga, the copper/gold alloy that was used to make the BoM plates and to adorn other items. Link to comment
hagoth7 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 In this post, Pahorah provides a good argument that ziff is the equivalent of Nephite steel.And, this article suggests that in early 19th-century terms, steel is simply hardened iron.If A=B=C, then ziff is simply hardened iron. Link to comment
Connolly Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I hadn't heard that ziff was a Hebrew word before. I read this article.http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publicatio...um=2&id=222Check the footnote in your BoM.Is the theory that the Lehites created the metal and the name? I favor the second idea I posted, that its a catch-all, chosen by either Mormon or the author of the original Noah record abridged by Mormon, to abbreviate "all things valuable because they are shinny and lusturous" or similar wording. It fits context. But all we have are opinions and ideas. If it was an abbreviate-ive word then one could argue that Joseph should have expanded it upon translation, so it could very well be an alloy lost to the knowledge of man, hence Joseph would have no better word to use, as in the first idea. Both arguments seem plausible. Link to comment
Anijen Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I would be very cautious on this sword/dagger. I would like to see further testing and dating of it. It does the church a huge disservice not to mention fuel anti mormon accounts if it is a fraud put forth to bolster testimony. If it is a fraud it will do the opposite and basically weaken any future argument if something of real genuine evidence emerges. Just my two centsAnijen Link to comment
BCSpace Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Orichalcum?Which might also be tumbaga.... Link to comment
Sevenbak Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 I would be very cautious on this sword/dagger. I would like to see further testing and dating of it. It does the church a huge disservice not to mention fuel anti mormon accounts if it is a fraud put forth to bolster testimony. If it is a fraud it will do the opposite and basically weaken any future argument if something of real genuine evidence emerges. Just my two centsAnijenTrue dat! Link to comment
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