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Where the Gadianton Robbers Mormon fought Teotihuacanos?


Olavarria

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amerika_mexiko_teotihuacan.jpg

In Helaman chapter 2, Mormon describes the founding of a group known as the Gadianton Robbers. He describes how they started up and what their proposes where. He ends the chapter by saying:

Helaman 2:13-14

13) And behold, in the end of this book ye shall see that this Gadianton did prove the overthrow, yea, almost the entire destruction of the people of Nephi.

14) Behold I do not mean the end of the book of Helaman, but I mean the end of the book of Nephi, from which I have taken all the account which I have written.

Gadianton's Influence

In other words, Gadianton, who lived at around 50BC did "prove the overthrow, yea, almost the entire destruction of the people of Nephi." This overthrow took place at about 385AD(Mormon 6:5), the "almost entire destruiction" between 400-421AD(Moroni 1:2).

Gadianton Dates

The Gadianton Robbers where founded at around 50BC.

At around 17BC, the last of the Gadiantons "have become extinct, and they have concealed their secret plans in the earth"(Helaman 11:10).

"And thus in time, yea, even in the space of not many years", a group of Nephite dissenters "became an exceedingly great band of robbers; and they did search out all the secret plans of Gadianton; and thus they became robbers of Gadianton"(Helaman 11:26).

At around 18AD-22AD, The Gadiantons are defeated and a little more than a decade later Christ visits his people in the Americas. The visitation of Jesus Christ marks the begining of a 200 year period of Zion which is void of Gadianton Robbers.

At about 245AD, "the wicked part of the people began again to build up the secret oaths and combinations of Gadianton"(4 Nephi 1:42). "And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over all the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus. And gold and silver did they lay up in store in abundance, and did traffic in all manner of traffic"(4 Nephi 4:36).

By about 326AD, the Gadianton Robbers are among the Lamanites and "infest the land"(Mormon 1:18).

By about 350AD, the Gadianton Robbers and the Lamanites are united in war against the Nephites. Nephites forced to enter a "treaty with the Lamanites and the robbers of Gadianton, in which we did get the lands of our inheritance divided"(Mormon 2:26,27).

The Time Gap

One can see how Gadianton's influence extended from 50BC to Zemnarihah in 22AD. But how did Gadianton's influence extend from 22AD, passed the 200 hundred years of Zion, and into 245AD? What we have is a huge time gap of at least 200 years. How does Mormon bridge this time gap?

Gadianton(50BC)_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _Gadiantion's Robbers and Murderers(245AD)

Bridging the Time Gap

In the begining of Helaman Chapter 3, Mormon takes some time away from telling the story of the Gadiantons and tells about another group of people.He describes people to migrated to a land that: 1)was north of Nephite lands, 2)had "large bodies of water and many rivers", 3)deforested and 4)where people became "exceedingly expert in the working of cement"(Helaman 3:3-11).

"...departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land"(Helaman 3:3).

http://www.geocities.com/road2006map/mexico-map.gif

"And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers"(Helaman 3:4).

http://deco-01.slide.com/r/1/347/dl/kBC2dP...l_8ij/watermark

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...coco_c_1519.png

"And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell"(Helaman 3:7).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vALQwt1TqRo...feature=related

ps. The Aztec didn't build Teotihuacan; they came down hundreds of years later. But this video shows the cement.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gWZ3nQ2Ob...station&lr=

If the narrow neck of land is the strait of Tehuantepec then the only place that fits this description is Teotihuacan.

However, Mormon's account is anachronistic. Helaman ch. 3 does not describe the Teotihuacan of 50bc, it describes the Teotihuacan of 250Ad and beyond. It does not describe the Teotihuacan of Gadianton's day, but the Teotihuacan of Mormon's day. What is Mormon doing? He is describing the Teotihuacan of his day, when he is writing the Book of Mormon, and projects it back in time to the era of the Gadiantons founding. He is bridging the time gap.

Gadianton(50BC)TEOTIHUACANGadiantion's Robbers and Murderers(245AD)

Now,ifTeotihuacan is the bridge that connects the man Gadianton(50bc) to the overthrow of the Nephites(385AD)thenthat means that the last incarnation of Gadianton's Robbers and Murderers originated in Teotihuacan.

Teotihuacan Dates and Influence

By 250 AD, the Pyrimid of the Sun and Pyrimid of Quetzalquatl were built.

By 350AD Teotihuacan became the preeminant city in Mesoamerica(Phillips pg 24. ).

â??This was the mighty city that held dominion over large parts of Mexico in the Early Classic, as the center of a military and commercial empire that may have been greater than that of the much later Aztecâ?(Coe 90).

â??Shortly after AD 400, the highlands fell under Teotihuacan domination. An intrusive group of central Mexicans from that city might have siezed Kaminaljuyu, where they built for themselves a miniature version of their capital. An elite class consisting both of Central Mexican foreigners and of a local nobility with whome they had marriage ties could have ruled over a captive population of largely Mayan descent(Coe 91)â?.

Sources

Brant's Paper

Michael Coe, The Maya 7th Edition, pg 50.

Charles Phillips, Complete Illustrated History of the Aztec and Maya; Lorenz Books (June 25, 2007),

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Thanks for posting the LGT stuff. My general impression is that it's ridiculous, but I find it interesting. And maybe I could be won over. ;)

LOL,ok. :P

f4.jpg

Another way to think of the OP....

Mormon is living in the late 300'sAD and wants to connect the Teotihuacan military and commercial incursions of his day with Gadianton, a man who lived more than 200+ years prior. Problem is, there is a 200 year gulf of Zion Society that prevents any plausable transmission of Gadianton's philosophy to the people of Mormon's day.

How does Mormon make such a connection?

Answer: By contriving one.

He notices that the Teotihuacanos do what the Gadiantons did: usurp power over the people through their murders, and their plunderings, and their getting gain(Hel 2:8;Hel 6:8,17,21;Hel 7:4;4 Nephi 1:46;Morm 1:18).

So he looks into Nephite records and finds an account of people contemporary with Gadianton who migrate to Teotihuacan. He contrives the connection by placing the Teotihuacan of his day back in Gadianton's day.

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Brant has some pretty good stuff. I was just trying to explain what he said in baby terms, cuz thats the only way I understand anything.

I always appreciate baby terms. One of my professors used to say, "If you can't explain it to your 90 year old grandmother, you don't understand it."

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I always appreciate baby terms. One of my professors used to say, "If you can't explain it to your 90 year old grandmother, you don't understand it."

Mormon is basically saying:"These Teotihuacanos are Gadianton Robbers. Back during Gadianton's day, some of the people went up to Teotihuacan. Well, they are back and they brought Gadianton's evils ways back with them."

"...Mesoamerican "empires" such as Teotihuacan's were probably not organized along Roman lines, with total replacement of local administrations by imperial power; rather, they were "hegemonic," in the sense that conquered bureaucracies were pretty much left in place, but controlled through the constant threat of overwhelming military force which could have been unleashed against them at any time. Thus, we can expect a good deal of local cultural continuity even in those regions taken over by the great city; but in the case of the lowland Maya, we shall allso see outright interference in dynastic matters, with profound implications for the course of Maya history"(Coe pg90).

"Where these intruders warriors or traders? They may well have been both. By Aztec times in central Mexico there was a special caste of armed merchants called pochteca, who journeyed into distant countriesin search of rare manufactures and raw materials not available in the homeland, all of which were destined for the king. From representations of the pochteca god at Teotihuacan, we know that the institution is at least as old as the Early Classic. Thus, Kaminaljuyu may have been a southeasterly outpost of long-distance traders from that great city, established for the purpose of exporting Maya riches for the Teotihuacan throne"(Coe pg92).

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