408 replies to this topic

[Flyonthewall]

johnny, on Jan 18 2009, 02:30 PM, said:

mpschmitt
Here is where we believe very differently ... for you salvation is conditioned on ordinances, for you a person cannot be saved by grace alone. For me it is by grace that we are saved.
In Mormon theology what is minimum required to live with our heavenly Father? What laws and principles must a person obey to live with our heavenly Father?
What are the minimum works to live with our heavenly father?
I believe will be judged by our love.

Why is it you, and others like you wish to quantify the minimum? Is that what you would shoot for?  God will always teach us the best way...be perfect , keep the commandments, etc.  When we fall short, and we will, that is where the grace of God makes up the difference.  
In the parable of the talents, what was the minimum required by the man of his servants?  It does not say, but what is clear, the servant who did nothing was unprofitable and cast out.

Oh, and Revelation 20 states very clearly that we will be judged by our works.  Hopefully your works will be done in love.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

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Why is it you, and others like you wish to quantify the minimum? Is that what you would shoot for? God will always teach us the best way...be perfect , keep the commandments, etc. When we fall short, and we will, that is where the grace of God makes up the difference.

My point in quantifying the minimum is to emphasize that it is by grace that we are saved, it is not by what is stated in third Mormon Article of Faith.

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In the parable of the talents, what was the minimum required by the man of his servants? It does not say, but what is clear, the servant who did nothing was unprofitable and cast out.

The servant who is not profitable will be cast out.

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Oh, and Revelation 20 states very clearly that we will be judged by our works. Hopefully your works will be done in love.

What works is Revelation 20 speaking of?
Is it describing the "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" like the third Mormon Article of Faith states?

[Flyonthewall]

johnny, on Jan 18 2009, 04:16 PM, said:

Flyonthewall
My point in quantifying the minimum is to emphasize that it is by grace that we are saved, it is not by what is stated in third Mormon Article of Faith.

Then you will rely on disobedience or non-obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel?  sounds like a crap shoot to me.

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The servant who is not profitable will be cast out.

The unprofitable servant was to one that relied solely on the grace of his master and did nothing with what he was given by the master.

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What works is Revelation 20 speaking of?

It is speaking of our works in relation to what we understand.

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Is it describing the "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" like the third Mormon Article of Faith states?

If we are taught the laws and ordinances of the gospel, then yes it includes that.  If someone had no opportunity to learn of the laws and ordinances, then they will be judged by what they did in accordance to their understanding of right and wrong, then once they are taught the gospel, they will need to accept the gospel and ordinances performed for them,
Because our understandings as individuals differ, there will be no "one size-fits-all" standard.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

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Then you will rely on disobedience or non-obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel? sounds like a crap shoot to me.

Or you rely on grace ... which sounds Biblical to me.

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The unprofitable servant was to one that relied solely on the grace of his master and did nothing with what he was given by the master.

The point of the story is about doing, it is not about grace. The point is not that he relied solely on the grace of his master, the point is that he did nothing.

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It is speaking of our works in relation to what we understand.

It is about doing charity.

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If we are taught the laws and ordinances of the gospel, then yes it includes that. If someone had no opportunity to learn of the laws and ordinances, then they will be judged by what they did in accordance to their understanding of right and wrong, then once they are taught the gospel, they will need to accept the gospel and ordinances performed for them,
Because our understandings as individuals differ, there will be no "one size-fits-all" standard.

It is not by grace if you say "they will need to accept the gospel and ordinances performed for them".

[Flyonthewall]

johnny, on Jan 18 2009, 05:51 PM, said:

Flyonthewall
The point of the story is about doing, it is not about grace. The point is not that he relied solely on the grace of his master, the point is that he did nothing.

When you do nothing with that which the master has given you, you rely soley on the grace of the master.  Christ gave us commandments and teachings, if we do nothing with them, then we are no better than an unprofitable servant.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

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When you do nothing with that which the master has given you, you rely soley on the grace of the master. Christ gave us commandments and teachings, if we do nothing with them, then we are no better than an unprofitable servant.

We obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands. By believing we obey God, by obeying God we do charity.

[Flyonthewall]

johnny, on Jan 18 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

Flyonthewall
We obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands. By believing we obey God, by obeying God we do charity.

I agree for the most part, obedience is part of our belief/faith/love of God.

[amo]

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 02:02 PM, said:

Bsix
- A sincere believe who refuses to be baptized can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuse to be confirmed can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuses to avoid mortal and grave can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuse to confess and receive absolution can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuses to live righteously to the end can still be saved by grace.

ONLY if he repents and stops DOING wrong and begins DOING good :

Acts 2:
36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far offâ??for all whom the Lord our God will call."


Amo

[Tanyan]

Determinining your Salvation - Repentance which is a part of ... From a non LDS Christian.

    http://www.bible.ca/...-repentance.htm

    In His Debt/Grace Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.