408 replies to this topic

[Tanyan]

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 03:20 PM, said:

Flyonthewall


I would not consider marriage God's commandment because marriage was not commanded by the Lord, the Lord taught both marriage and being unmarried for the kingdom of God for those who can receive it (Matt 19:10-12). Jesus told his disciples that all men cannot receive the saying of marriage except to whom it is given (Matt 19:10,11).

The apostle Paul taught that every man has his proper gift of God, he said to the unmarried to abide as him and those who cannot contain, let them marry (1Cor 7:6-9). Let everyone walk as the Lord has called them, it pleases the Lord that unmarried cared for the things that belong to the Lord (1Cor 7:17-34).


I am saying that Paul clearly says we not saved according to our works. Those who do evil will be damned.

• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  
• -
  
• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )

      
        We are not Saved by our Personal Adamic nature works in and of themselves with no true Pistis, we need to open up and use the Free gift of Grace and follow its instructions to access its power in our spiritual/temporal lives. We must be Bondservants !. .

     In His Debt/Grace,Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Bsix]

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1037 - God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end

I would suggest that anyone who professes to be a believer and refuses God to be baptized, refuses to be confirmed, commits mortal and grave sins, refuses to to confess and repent, and dies in sin without last rites...has willfully truned away from God. Such a person may not be predestined to go to hell...but  they don't seem to fit into the category of a believer whose faith is manifest by his or her works.

Regards,

Six

[robuchan]

sethpayne, on Dec 31 2008, 02:23 AM, said:

In all probability I am a complete idiot but Robinson's interpretation seems to simply state *the opposite* of what the verse actually says.

I like Robinson's interpretation better.... and indeed I wish that the verse read "in spite of all we can do."  Problem is, the most straightforward interpretation of this verse aligns with the GA interpretation  

Interesting.  Why do you say that?  If you go by the GA's, then Robinson definitely has it wrong.  I keep waiting for a GA to interpret it that way, but I think I'll be waiting a long time.  And I'd guess there are ten that have interpreted it the opposite way.  I did a study on this once.  

But if you look at the verse and the context, I feel Robinson's "in spite of" interpretation is the most logical.  Maybe I'm just rooting too hard for it, but it seems more likely to me that the author (Nephi/Joseph/God/whoever) meant it that way.

[johnny]

Bsix

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I can live with my Father in Heaven through the Atonement of Christ by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Sounds like you are adding "obedience"  .... did you change your mind ... in the thread below you said "we are saved by the atoning grace of Jesus Christ."

Lutheran Brand of Catholicism
http://www.mormonapo...mp;p=1208567771

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That's it.

You say "that's it" ... how come you differ with "captain-jack", he seemed to indicate that the Mormon commandants of marriage, having children, not using wine, not useing tobacco, not using coffee were necessary to live with the heavenly Father.

Don't you believe the following are commandments?

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36 "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."

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Now within Mormon theology, there are some nuances.

Sounds like Mormon theology is salvation by works ... you say "by obedience" ... the BoM says "saved, after all we can do" ... the A/F 3 say "saved, by obedience".

[Mudcat]

robuchan, on Dec 31 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

Interesting.  Why do you say that?  If you go by the GA's, then Robinson definitely has it wrong.  I keep waiting for a GA to interpret it that way, but I think I'll be waiting a long time.  And I'd guess there are ten that have interpreted it the opposite way.  I did a study on this once.  

But if you look at the verse and the context, I feel Robinson's "in spite of" interpretation is the most logical.  Maybe I'm just rooting too hard for it, but it seems more likely to me that the author (Nephi/Joseph/God/whoever) meant it that way.

I think its interesting that there is such a division in the CoJCoLDS on what I would think is a very significant piece of doctrine.

This rift seems to exist outside of discussion boards as well. My father-in-law and the local Branch Pres came by the house for a 'friendly' visit. The subject of grace and works came up and my father-in-law supported what I might call the standard position, that the GA's support. The BP fell more in line with Robinson, which IMO, falls more in line with my own evangelical perspective. It was very spirited discussion which ultimately led to us finding what we could in common on the topic and moving on.

However, it would seem that those who adhere to this 'in spite of' interpretation are doing so of their own volition and would be placing themselves outside of doctrine on the point. Am I seeing that correctly? Or do you think its possible that the issue isn't relevant enough to matter in that regard?

[johnny]

Bsix

Quote

I would suggest that anyone who professes to be a believer and refuses God to be baptized, refuses to be confirmed, commits mortal and grave sins, refuses to to confess and repent, and dies in sin without last rites...has willfully truned away from God.

If he dies in mortal sin then he won't with be with our heavenly Father.

Quote

Such a person may not be predestined to go to hell...but they don't seem to fit into the category of a believer whose faith is manifest by his or her works.

They don't seem fit to you because you believe in the Mormon doctrine of "saved, after all we can do" instead of the Biblical doctrine of "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works"

[Flyonthewall]

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 02:20 PM, said:

Flyonthewall
I would not consider marriage God's commandment because marriage was not commanded by the Lord, the Lord taught both marriage and being unmarried for the kingdom of God for those who can receive it (Matt 19:10-12). Jesus told his disciples that all men cannot receive the saying of marriage except to whom it is given (Matt 19:10,11).

The apostle Paul taught that every man has his proper gift of God, he said to the unmarried to abide as him and those who cannot contain, let them marry (1Cor 7:6-9). Let everyone walk as the Lord has called them, it pleases the Lord that unmarried cared for the things that belong to the Lord (1Cor 7:17-34).

One of the things which are interpreted very differently by our respective faiths, but that's a separate thread.

Quote

I am saying that Paul clearly says we not saved according to our works. Those who do evil will be damned.

• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  
• -
  
• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )

And James states very clearly that works are a part of faith, which is the vehicle through which grace is effective.
On the one hand, I hear you saying that salvation has nothing to do with works.  On the other hand, I hear you saying that the unprofitable servant is cast out to outer darkness.  What makes a servant unprofitable if not works?

[Tanyan]

One of the componants [Which is connected to True Faith] to access Jesus Christs Grace is through "Obedience" Hebrews 5:9.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Edited by Tanyan, 31 December 2008 - 02:57 PM.

[Bsix]

Quote

Sounds like you are adding "obedience" .... did you change your mind ... in the thread below you said "we are saved by the atoning grace of Jesus Christ."

No. I have been very consistent in declaring that salvation is through the saving grace of the atonement...and that we humans have to follow God's commandments to merit that atoning grace.

If you are unclear on my statements, I suggest that you re-read my posts on those threads.

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

Quote

One of the things which are interpreted very differently by our respective faiths, but that's a separate thread.

I agree ...

Quote

And James states very clearly that works are a part of faith, which is the vehicle through which grace is effective.

You are missing the point of James. We are to be doers of the word, and nor hears only, a doer shall be blessed (James 1:22-25). We hear the word of God which says "love one another" and we do. We show are faith by our works of mercy (James 2:13-18). By works of mercy is our faith made perfect, it is not faith only (James 2:21-24). Faith without the spirit is dead (James 2:26). By adding virtues like mercy and charity to our faith we shall not be unfruitful (2Pet 1:3-8 ).

James says that Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, by doing the word of God his faith was made perfect, he was justified (James 2:21-26). Abraham was not justified by his works, if so then he would have reason to boast, Abraham was credited with righteousness because Abraham did not doubt God's promise in unbelief, rather he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God, the promised inheritance is through the righteousness that comes from faith (Rom 4:2-25).

Quote

On the one hand, I hear you saying that salvation has nothing to do with works. On the other hand, I hear you saying that the unprofitable servant is cast out to outer darkness. What makes a servant unprofitable if not works?

The spirit is what makes him ... with the spirit, the fruit of the spirit is produced ... without the spirit, the works of the flesh.

[Tanyan]

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 03:54 PM, said:

No. I have been very consistent in declaring that salvation is through the saving grace of the atonement...and that we humans have to follow God's commandments to merit that atoning grace.

If you are unclear on my statements, I suggest that you re-read my posts on those threads.

Regards,

Six

       Bsix, I would as a LDS [JEDI KNIGHT] state it differently - ... "and we humans have to follow GOD's commandments to merit "staying in" that atoning grace. Which is just me looking a the Greek word for "Grace" which means an "Unmerited" gift/favor.

    In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[johnny]

Bsix

Quote

No. I have been very consistent in declaring that salvation is through the saving grace of the atonement...and that we humans have to follow God's commandments to merit that atoning grace.

Then it appears you have been consistent in being non-consistent with what the Bible reveals, the Bible reveals something different than what you are declaring.

• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)

Quote

If you are unclear on my statements, I suggest that you re-read my posts on those threads.

Do you believe in salvation by works ... in other words saved by obedience (A/F 3)?

[Tanyan]

Again from a Catholic Christian responding to a Ev Christian- http://matt1618.free...w.com/salv.html

     In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

Obedience is conected Directly to Jesus Christs Grace - Hebrews 5:9.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Edited by Tanyan, 31 December 2008 - 03:10 PM.

[Tanyan]

Grace is and can only be Accessed/Activated/and made Alive In,Through, and By, Faith [Pistis] which Gift [Faith] needs to be brought about by the individual so that the other Gift [Grace] can Save/Exhalt us.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Edited by Tanyan, 31 December 2008 - 03:15 PM.

[Trencher7]

Quote

Then it appears you have been consistent in being non-consistent with what the Bible reveals, the Bible reveals something different than what you are declaring.

• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)

Do you believe in salvation by works ... in other words saved by obedience (A/F 3)?

Johhny, you keep attacking a straw man.  LDS do not believe mankind can be saved by his own works.  You just keep throwing out the baby with the bathwater when you assume a Christian's good works combined with his faith under grace is the same as someone trying to obligate God to save him for his own "righteous works" alone.

We are not saved by our own works of righteousness.  We know.

Edited by Trencher7, 31 December 2008 - 03:19 PM.

[Tanyan]

Watch Johnny is going to ask us the same question again with maybe a slight variation.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Edited by Tanyan, 31 December 2008 - 03:21 PM.

[johnny]

Trencher7

Quote

Johhny, you keep attacking a straw man. LDS do not believe mankind can be saved by his own works. You just keep throwing out the baby with the bathwater when you assume a Christian's good works combined with his faith under grace is the same as someone trying to obligate God to save him for his own "righteous works" alone.

Do you consider the Mormon commandment marriage "his own works"?

Is marriage part of  "saved, after all we can do" (BoM) and part of "saved by obedience" (A/F 3)

Edited by johnny, 31 December 2008 - 03:24 PM.

[Trencher7]

Mudcat, on Dec 31 2008, 03:52 PM, said:

I think its interesting that there is such a division in the CoJCoLDS on what I would think is a very significant piece of doctrine.

This rift seems to exist outside of discussion boards as well. My father-in-law and the local Branch Pres came by the house for a 'friendly' visit. The subject of grace and works came up and my father-in-law supported what I might call the standard position, that the GA's support. The BP fell more in line with Robinson, which IMO, falls more in line with my own evangelical perspective. It was very spirited discussion which ultimately led to us finding what we could in common on the topic and moving on.

However, it would seem that those who adhere to this 'in spite of' interpretation are doing so of their own volition and would be placing themselves outside of doctrine on the point. Am I seeing that correctly? Or do you think its possible that the issue isn't relevant enough to matter in that regard?

I think the valid question for the "all you can do" believers is who actually does "all he can do?  And what is really meant by that?

Origen said, "He makes Himself known to those who, after doing all that their powers will allow, confess that they need help from him."  (Against Celcus bk 7. Chapter 42.)

Man has to do "all that his powers will allow" before God will make Himself known to him?  So what exactly is that?

We are, as the BoM treaches, ultimately saved by grace-

Quote

2 Nephi 10:24
â??Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the cgrace of God that ye are saved.â?.

The Book of Mormon teaches that "all that we can do" amounts to not so much.

Quote

"I say, if ye should serve him [God] with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants."

Edited by Trencher7, 31 December 2008 - 03:41 PM.

[DH]

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 12:41 AM, said:

2 Nephi 25:23:
From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Fascinating. What I get from that verse is just the opposite of what the critics say. The way I read it, it is Christ's grace that saves us, no matter how many good works we have done, because our works are insufficient to save us.

Maybe the critics need to eat more fish ("brain food") before trying to interpret scripture!

DH