408 replies to this topic

[Grothar]

Heeeeere's Johnny

Seriously, just drop it CJ it's impossible to get through to him.

Grothar, walks away

[consiglieri]

Luigi, on Jan 5 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

So did you start loving God because he was going to throw you in hell if you didn't love him?
Also are you concerned that you might stop believing/loving God if you didn't pay tithing?

I feel this responses capsulizes what I said a few hundred posts ago--that it is impossible to say that following the commandments of God are solely and 100% out of love for God, and not out of any personal interest, when God has said that a failure to abide by the commandments has some pretty dire consequences.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[cjwright]

Johnny,

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Which commandment? Marriage is not a commandment of God's.

Under your definition it isn't but that definition is not supported by scripture - everything God tells us to do is a commandment, or are you re-defining the dictionary on the word command?

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It does not break the Mormon commandment of tithing because tithing is not a commandment of the NT.

The LDS Church gets its commandment to pay tithing from the OT. Are you saying then that robbing God shows Him we love Him?

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Please provide the scripture that reveal these other commandments.  The only commandment I know of in the NT is believe and love one another.

Everything God asks of us is a commandment. All the commandments of the OT are manifested in the commandments of love God and love one another. So in order to keep the commandments to love God and love one another you still have to do those things we have been commanded to do. If we take the Lord's name in vain, we are breaking the commandment to love God, when we steal, we break the commandment to love one another. Do you see where I'm coming from? We don't need a list of 'Thou shalt and thou shalt not' because they are all encompassed in those two commandments.

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Just so I understand you correctly â?¦ are you saying if a person does quit drinking wine then they can not get married in the Mormon Church.

If you do not follow the Word of Wisdom when you are a member of the Church you can't get a Temple Recommend to enter the Temple and perform the sealing ordinance for yourself. As we do vicarious work for those who have died, the sealing ordinance will be done by a proxy if a person has not been able to perform those ordinances for themselves while they are alive, for what ever reason. All couples will be sealed together and children will be sealed to their parents, regardless of worthiness, they just will not be able to have the full benefits of the sealing ordinance unless they have proved worthy enough to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. For someone who supposedly has read the Gospel Principles manual you show a very stark knowledge of LDS teachings.

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You are describe in the beginning, in the beginning woman was created so man would not be alone.

Yes, and that the same principle existed at the time of Christ, and afterwards, as those scripture references proved. Marriage is a commandment and has been since the time of Adam.

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We are not ALL commanded to be in a state of marriage.  Jesus and the apostle Paul would disagree with you.

We are all commanded to strive for a state of marriage, Jesus and the apostle Paul would agree with me.

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We obey Godâ??s commandment to believe and love one another, we do not need to obey man-made commandments to be saved.

This point is not the reason for this thread, the reason for this thread is about the misrepresentation of 2 Nephi 25:23. You state that the scripture clearly is contrary to what Eph 2:8+9 reveals, however 2 Nephi 25:23-25 states that even though we are saved by grace we have to follow the commandments. If 2 Nephi 25:23-25 contradicts Eph 2:8+9 show that Eph 2:8+9 states that you don't have to follow the commandments if you are saved by grace. If Eph 2:8+9 does not show that you do not have to follow the commandments if we are saved by grace you have NO argument over misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23, you have misrepresented it, case closed.

[cksalmon]

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 09:10 AM, said:

Thanks for the quotes. The risk of asking for references is that you get what you ask for and the results do not support your point of view.

I'm virtually positive that Spencer Kimball speaks of earning salvation in Miracle of Forgiveness. I believe he also references the 2 Nephi passage in that context. I'll have to look it up later when I'm at home.

Best.

cks

[consiglieri]

cksalmon, on Jan 5 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

I'm virtually positive that Spencer Kimball speaks of earning salvation in Miracle of Forgiveness. I believe he also references the 2 Nephi passage in that context. I'll have to look it up later when I'm at home.

Best.

cks

I have no doubt that you are right, CKS.

You might also try to google the phrase, "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps," as I recall that being a favorite of President Kimball's.

Here's one!

http://209.85.173.13...T...=us&strip=1

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Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[johnny]

cjwright

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Under your definition it isn't but that definition is not supported by scripture - everything God tells us to do is a commandment, or are you re-defining the dictionary on the word command?

You say â??everything God tells us to do is a commandmentâ? â?¦ does this include all the hundreds of commandments in the OT?

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The LDS Church gets its commandment to pay tithing from the OT. Are you saying then that robbing God shows Him we love Him?

Tithing was an Old Testament obligation that was incumbent on the Jews under the Law of Moses. Christians are dispensed from the obligation of tithing ten percent of their incomes, but not from the obligation to help the Church.  The key to understanding how God wants us to give to the Church is found in 1 Corinthians 16:2 and in 2 Corinthians 9:5-8.

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Everything God asks of us is a commandment. All the commandments of the OT are manifested in the commandments of love God and love one another. So in order to keep the commandments to love God and love one another you still have to do those things we have been commanded to do. If we take the Lord's name in vain, we are breaking the commandment to love God, when we steal, we break the commandment to love one another. Do you see where I'm coming from? We don't need a list of 'Thou shalt and thou shalt not' because they are all encompassed in those two commandments.

I can see that you are being vigilant so that you can live in Celestial kingdom instead of the lower kingdomâ??s.

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If you do not follow the Word of Wisdom when you are a member of the Church you can't get a Temple Recommend to enter the Temple and perform the sealing ordinance for yourself. As we do vicarious work for those who have died, the sealing ordinance will be done by a proxy if a person has not been able to perform those ordinances for themselves while they are alive, for what ever reason. All couples will be sealed together and children will be sealed to their parents, regardless of worthiness, they just will not be able to have the full benefits of the sealing ordinance unless they have proved worthy enough to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. For someone who supposedly has read the Gospel Principles manual you show a very stark knowledge of LDS teachings

.
Thanks that helps me better understand LDS teachings.

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Yes, and that the same principle existed at the time of Christ, and afterwards, as those scripture references proved. Marriage is a commandment and has been since the time of Adam.

You have not shown any verse that reveals marriage is a commandment for all.  Genesis 2:23+24, Matthew 19:5, and Ephesians 5:31  do not reveal marriage is a commandment.  They are verses simply apply to those called to those called to marry.

• Gen.2
  
• [23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
  
• [24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh
  
• -
  
• Matt.19
  
• [5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
  
• -
  
• Eph.5
  
• [31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

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We are all commanded to strive for a state of marriage, Jesus and the apostle Paul would agree with me.

Neither Jesus nor the apostle Paul commanded marriage like the Mormon Church does.  Jesus said â??He that is able to receive it, let him receive it â?. The apostle Paul says â??But every man hath his proper gift of God â?¦ to the unmarried â?¦ it is good to abide even as Iâ?.  See verses below:

• Matt.19 ([10] His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. [11] But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. [12] For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.)
  
• -
  
• 1Cor.7 ([6] But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. [7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. )

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This point is not the reason for this thread, the reason for this thread is about the misrepresentation of 2 Nephi 25:23. You state that the scripture clearly is contrary to what Eph 2:8+9 reveals, however 2 Nephi 25:23-25 states that even though we are saved by grace we have to follow the commandments. If 2 Nephi 25:23-25 contradicts Eph 2:8+9 show that Eph 2:8+9 states that you don't have to follow the commandments if you are saved by grace. If Eph 2:8+9 does not show that you do not have to follow the commandments if we are saved by grace you have NO argument over misrepresenting 2 Nephi 25:23, you have misrepresented it, case closed.

You say â??2 Nephi 25:23-25 states that even though we are saved by grace we have to follow the commandmentsâ?.  Eph 2:8-9 does not mention commandments, it says â??not of yourselves â?¦ not of works, lest any man should boastâ?.  2Tim 1:9 reveals the same thing at Eph 2:8-9.  Titus 3:4-8 does not command good works but says â??be careful to maintain good worksâ?.  See scriptures below:

• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)
  
• -
  
• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, .)
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men,)

[cksalmon]

consiglieri, on Jan 5 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

I have no doubt that you are right, CKS.

(It doesn't happen often.)

Hi Consig--

Hope you and yours had a Merry Christmas!

---

Six--

You wrote:

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From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare  that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim  that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and  that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such  a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this  passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS  scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the  critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to  represent this passage in such a manner.

Here's what Spencer Kimball wrote (in a chapter entitled, fittingly, "Keeping God's Commandments Brings Forgiveness," found in his Miracle of Forgiveness [starting on page 201 in the 23rd printing of 1994]):

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We have discussed elsewhere that other class of people who are basically unrepentant because they are not "doing the commandments." They are Church members who are steeped in lethargy. They neither drink nor commit the sexual sins. They do not gamble nor rob nor kill. They are good citizens and splendid neighbors, but spiritually speaking they seem to be in a long, deep sleep. They are doing nothing seriously wrong except in their failures to do the right things to earn their exaltation. To such people as this, the words of Lehi might well apply:
O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe. (2 Ne. 1:13.)      

...

This [that is, 2 Nephi 25:23 and 3 Nephi 27:19-20--cks] makes clear the two facets, neither of which alone would bring the individual salvation the grace of Christ, particularly as represented by his atoning sacrifice, and individual effort. However good a person's works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else's sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel.

...

One could multiply references almost indefinitely but enough has been said to establish the point that the repentant life, the life which constantly reaches for perfection, must rely on works as well as on faith. The gospel is a program of action--of doing things. Man's immortality and eternal life are God's goals. (Moses 1:39.) Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.

It certainly seems as though Kimball believed strongly that the grace of Christ expressed in the atonement was inadequate and reciprocally dependent upon the Saint's works. To anticipate one possible response, Kimball quite clearly distinguishes between "mere salvation or redemption from the grave" (which accrues to all regardless) and "returning to the presence of God." His comments above are directed at the latter.

Best.

cks

Edited by cksalmon, 06 January 2009 - 11:38 AM.

[cjwright]

Johnny,

Are regards what is a commandment, and if marriage is a commandment, we are just going around in circles, so lets just agree to disagree, because it is getting us no where. I have explained the Church's position on why marriage, tithing, etc are commandments, and the scripture references to back that up, if you can't see the connection between them then nothing I can say or show you will change your mind. You said in a earlier post you pay tithing to show your love for God, well, what do you think not paying your tithing shows God, like I said before, do you show your love for God by robbing Him? (That's a rhetorical question, if you didn't know)

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You say â??2 Nephi 25:23-25 states that even though we are saved by grace we have to follow the commandmentsâ?.  Eph 2:8-9 does not mention commandments, it says â??not of yourselves â?¦ not of works, lest any man should boastâ?.  2Tim 1:9 reveals the same thing at Eph 2:8-9.  Titus 3:4-8 does not command good works but says â??be careful to maintain good worksâ?.  See scriptures below:

• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)
  
• -
  
• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, .)
  
• -
  
• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men,)

This proves my point and the point of the thread, 2 Nephi 25:23-25 is specifically talking about being saved by grace but still having to follow the commandments, for the Nephites this is the Law of Moses until the coming of Christ. These verses in 2 Nephi do not mention the word works at all, it only mentions following commandments so it does not contradict those NT verses, or anything else in the Bible, unless you can prove that it says we do not have to follow the commandments because we are saved by grace.

Even if 2 Nephi 25:23 is talking about works, by comparing the Nephites then with NT Christians is very much a misrepresentation as both groups are under different Laws, you are not comparing like for like because the Nephites would have to do certain 'Works' under the Law of Moses which they have been commanded to keep until the coming of Christ. Do you see now how the verses are not contradictory?

[johnny]

cjwright

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Are regards what is a commandment, and if marriage is a commandment, we are just going around in circles, so lets just agree to disagree, because it is getting us no where.

The Mormon commandment of marriage is a man-made commandment.  Both Jesus and Paul make it clear that marriage is a not a commandment for all.  Jesus says all men can not receive the saying of marriage except those whom it is given and Jesus says those who can be single for the kingdom of heaven's sake let him receive it.   The apostle Paul says every man has his proper gift of God and Paul tells the unmarried to abide as him.  Paul says those who are unmarried care for the things that belong to the Lord and that pleases the Lord.

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I have explained the Church's position on why marriage, tithing, etc are commandments, and the scripture references to back that up, if you can't see the connection between them then nothing I can say or show you will change your mind. You said in a earlier post you pay tithing to show your love for God, well, what do you think not paying your tithing shows God, like I said before, do you show your love for God by robbing Him? (That's a rhetorical question, if you didn't know)

The Mormon commandment of tithing is a man-made commandment.  A person does not rob God if they tithe because the love God instead of tithing because they have to since they think it is a commandment of Godâ??s.

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This proves my point and the point of the thread, 2 Nephi 25:23-25 is specifically talking about being saved by grace but still having to follow the commandments, for the Nephites this is the Law of Moses until the coming of Christ. These verses in 2 Nephi do not mention the word works at all, it only mentions following commandments so it does not contradict those NT verses, or anything else in the Bible, unless you can prove that it says we do not have to follow the commandments because we are saved by grace.

The scriptures I provided prove my point that we are saved BEFORE doing things that are good and profitable unto men.  We are not â??saved AFTER doing all we can doâ? like 2 Nephi 25:23-25 reveals.  Those who are saved follow Godâ??s commandments because they love God NOT because they have to obey his commandmentâ??s to live with Him in the celestial kingdom.  All who are saved received the free gift of righteousness through faith, all the righteous will live together. God works in those saved so that we can work out their salvation.  Those not valiant are made perfect through sanctification of the spirit.  A person has fallen from grace if they think that by their works of righteousness they live will their heavenly Father in the celesital kingdom inhis glory.

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Even if 2 Nephi 25:23 is talking about works, by comparing the Nephites then with NT Christians is very much a misrepresentation as both groups are under different Laws, you are not comparing like for like because the Nephites would have to do certain 'Works' under the Law of Moses which they have been commanded to keep until the coming of Christ. Do you see now how the verses are not contradictory?

Both Mormon scripture and the third Mormon article of faith are contradictory to the teaching of grace which is found in the NT which reveals we are saved by grace it is â??not of yourselvesâ? (Eph 2:8 ) and â??Not by works of righteousness which we have doneâ? (Titus 3:5).

2Nephi 25:23 is talking about we â??are saved, after all we can doâ?, just like the third Mormon article of faith which states â??We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospelâ?.

Edited by johnny, 06 January 2009 - 07:16 AM.

[Luigi]

johnny, on Jan 6 2009, 07:05 AM, said:

The scriptures I provided prove my point ....

Therein lies your problem johnny-scriptures prove nothing.

[cjwright]

Johnny,

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The Mormon commandment of marriage is a man-made commandment.  Both Jesus and Paul make it clear that marriage is a not a commandment for all.  Jesus says all men can not receive the saying of marriage except those whom it is given and Jesus says those who can be single for the kingdom of heaven's sake let him receive it.   The apostle Paul says every man has his proper gift of God and Paul tells the unmarried to abide as him.  Paul says those who are unmarried care for the things that belong to the Lord and that pleases the Lord.

By extension then marriage is a sin under your way of thinking as if only the unmarried please the Lord, then the married must not please the Lord. Obviously this is not the case, so you are seeing marriage out of context. I, nor LDS teaching said that marriage is a commandment for all, but that doesn't mean it is not a commandment. The Law of Moses was only for the Israelites, that doesn't mean they weren't commandments.

Your use of 1 Cor 7:6+7, in an earlier post proves you take this point out of context because it is talking about the unmarried and widows not committing sexual sin, not marriage - widows have already followed the commandment to be married, or they wouldn't be widows would they?

Quote

The Mormon commandment of tithing is a man-made commandment.  A person does not rob God if they tithe because the love God instead of tithing because they have to since they think it is a commandment of Godâ??s.

You are just picking and choosing which commandments you want to follow. Good luck with that.

Quote

The scriptures I provided prove my point that we are saved BEFORE doing things that are good and profitable unto men.  We are not â??saved AFTER doing all we can doâ? like 2 Nephi 25:23-25 reveals.  Those who are saved follow Godâ??s commandments because they love God NOT because they have to obey his commandmentâ??s to live with Him in the celestial kingdom.  All who are saved received the free gift of righteousness through faith, all the righteous will live together. God works in those saved so that we can work out their salvation.  Those not valiant are made perfect through sanctification of the spirit.  A person has fallen from grace if they think that by their works of righteousness they live will their heavenly Father in the celesital kingdom inhis glory.

Both Mormon scripture and the third Mormon article of faith are contradictory to the teaching of grace which is found in the NT which reveals we are saved by grace it is â??not of yourselvesâ? (Eph 2:8 ) and â??Not by works of righteousness which we have doneâ? (Titus 3:5).

2Nephi 25:23 is talking about we â??are saved, after all we can doâ?, just like the third Mormon article of faith which states â??We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospelâ?.

You contradicted your self a number of times here, and contradicted scripture. How can righteousness be a free gift if we still have to follow the commandments to show our righteousness? Righteousness is NOT a free gift through faith, righteousness hinges on us following the commandments. And as I said, show me the scripture references that show as we are saved by grace we do not have to follow the commandments.

How can we show we love God if we don't follow the commandments? As Christ said 'if you love me, keep my commandments'.

You say that 2 Nephi 25:23-25 and the third Article of Faith contradict your point, however for that to be true it must also be true that was are still saved if we do not follow the commandments. So I will ask you again, where does it show in scripture that if we are saved by grace we do not have to follow the commandments - the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel? Also your interpretation of 'saved', do you mean saved from physical death or spiritual death, because there is a difference.

2 Nephi 25:23-25 is only talking about being saved by grace and still having to follow the commandments, nothing else, or you are misrepresenting it - cherry picking one word to try and prove your point regardless of what is said as a whole. The Nephites were under the Law of Moses, the NT Christians were not, as you can't see the distinction between teh two you can't see where your representation of them is wrong.

All you are doing is misrepresenting certain LDS teachings regardless of how they are explained and shown to you that they are true. You hide your eyes from certain facts, and can't produce anything that, when put in the proper context, contradicts any of LDS teachings. LDS teachings only contradict you interpretation.

I'm going to follow Grothar's advice because he's right, it's impossible to get through to you as you have no understanding of LDS teachings, and show your ignorance of them by your answers. I thought it was worth helping you understand, obviously I was wrong.

[busybee]

Seems that it's is YOUR interpretation of said scripture and aricle of Faith that are contradictory.  No LDS believe that they can do it alone. We know we need the Atonement. You have been labouring this point for days now Johnny just going round and round in circles, just stop already. We know what we believe and you telling us different is not going to work. You are not looking to understand us at all. You're looking to be right at all costs. If you wanted to understand, you give more thought to the answers that have been given to you rather than throwing out the same quotes over and over again to try and prove to us that we are wrong and you are right.

Edited for clarity.

Edited by busybee, 06 January 2009 - 03:03 PM.

[johnny]

cjwright

Quote

By extension then marriage is a sin under your way of thinking as if only the unmarried please the Lord, then the married must not please the Lord. Obviously this is not the case, so you are seeing marriage out of context. I, nor LDS teaching said that marriage is a commandment for all, but that doesn't mean it is not a commandment. The Law of Moses was only for the Israelites, that doesn't mean they weren't commandments.

You are the one seeing marriage out of context. If you read scripture those who marry â?¦ please his wife â?¦ please her husband. See below.

• 1Cor.7 ([20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. [34] There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. )

Quote

Your use of 1 Cor 7:6+7, in an earlier post proves you take this point out of context because it is talking about the unmarried and widows not committing sexual sin, not marriage - widows have already followed the commandment to be married, or they wouldn't be widows would they?

My usage is completely in context. Paul is telling the unmarried to abide as him if they have the proper gift of God.

• 1Cor.7 ([6] But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. [7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I

.

Quote

You are just picking and choosing which commandments you want to follow. Good luck with that.

I pick and choose the commandment that is revealed in the New Testament.  I say good luck to those who follow man-made commandments.

Quote

You contradicted your self a number of times here, and contradicted scripture. How can righteousness be a free gift if we still have to follow the commandments to show our righteousness? Righteousness is NOT a free gift through faith, righteousness hinges on us following the commandments. And as I said, show me the scripture references that show as we are saved by grace we do not have to follow the commandments.

What I have said is completely consistent with scripture. Rom 5 reveals we receive the free of righteousness by faith, see below.  Eph 2 reveals being saved is not of ourselves, not of works, see below.

• Rom.5 ([2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.  [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
  
• -
  
• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)

Quote

How can we show we love God if we don't follow the commandments? As Christ said 'if you love me, keep my commandments'.

We show our love for God by following his commandment to believe and love one another.

Quote

You say that 2 Nephi 25:23-25 and the third Article of Faith contradict your point, however for that to be true it must also be true that was are still saved if we do not follow the commandments. So I will ask you again, where does it show in scripture that if we are saved by grace we do not have to follow the commandments - the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel? Also your interpretation of 'saved', do you mean saved from physical death or spiritual death, because there is a difference.

As a Son we obey Godâ??s commandment to love one another for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him (Titus 3:5; 1John 5:1-5).  He saved us according to his mercy, not by works of righteousness which we have done, we are justified by his grace (Titus 3:5-7). By saved I mean the salvation of our souls (1Pet 1:9).  Both the just (saved) and the unjust (damned) will be physically resurrected (Acts 24:15).

[cksalmon]

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 12:41 AM, said:

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

...

I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works [NOTE: I wouldn't argue that LDS leaders have taught that works "create" grace, whatever that might mean, only that it has been clearly taught in connection with this verse that works precede, are necessary to, and in part result in final salvation--cks].

Regards,

Six

Hi Six--

Here's another instance that I believe fulfills the requirements of your CFR. Speaking in General Conference in 2001, President Faust stated the following:

Quote

All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior's magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt [emphasis in original--cks]

...

We cannot be saved by grace alone, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

...

The Atonement and the Resurrection accomplish many things. The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Savior's grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us. Christ's Resurrection overcame death and gave us the assurance of life after death. Said He: "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. The Resurrection is unconditional and applies to all who have ever lived and ever will live. It is a free gift. President John Taylor described this well when he said: "The tombs will be opened and the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and they shall come forth, they who have done good to the resurrection of the just, and they who have done evil to the resurrection of the unjust.

(President James E. Faust, "The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope," Ensign-Conference Report (November 2001): 18)

A straightforward reading of Faust here indicates that our works are a necessary precondition that causally "activates" the grace of Christ.

You wrote:

Quote

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare  that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone.

Again, Faust stated:

Quote

We cannot be saved by grace alone, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

You wrote:

Quote

They claim  that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and  that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Kimball wrote:

Quote

And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings  exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel.

You wrote:

Quote

Such  a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this  passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS  scriptures and theological commentary. I believe that the  critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to  represent this passage in such a manner.

I certainly try not to be the former, and I'm not the latter.

Best.

cks

Edited by cksalmon, 07 January 2009 - 07:31 PM.

[cksalmon]

Hi Six--

You wrote:

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 12:41 AM, said:

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.
...

"...[C]ritics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone.

Spencer W. Kimball stated:

Quote

One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation. One passage in the Book of Mormon, written perhaps with the same intent as Paul's statement above-to stress and induce appreciation for the gracious gift of salvation offered on condition of obedience-is particularly enlightening: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23; italics added.)

(Edward L. Kimball, ed., The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 70)

I don't know how else to read this statement other than as an affirmation that belief in the saving power of grace alone is Satanic in origin, according to Kimball.  

Best.

cks

[cksalmon]

Hi Six--

You wrote:

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 12:41 AM, said:

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

...

On several threads our good friend Johnny and others have taken to telling Mormons what our doctrines are. Specifically, they are prooftexting a few words from 2 Nephi 25:23:

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

Speaking in General Conference in October 1970, President Harold B. Lee opened his address by stating, "This morning in my remarks I desire to direct your attention to some principles of vital importance to every human soul. . . ."

In a section of that talk entitled "Salvation Through Obedience," Lee taught:

Quote

"For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.

  

President Harold B. Lee, Conference Report (October 1970), General Priesthood Meeting: 116

Rather than "our own works [being] required to make up the difference," though (as you suggested), it appears to me that, for those I've been quoting, Christ's (atoning) work is what "make[s] up the difference." Ultimately, I think this might be a distinction without a difference, but, I point it out merely for clarity's sake.

Best

cks

Edited by cksalmon, 08 January 2009 - 04:48 PM.

[cksalmon]

Hi Six--

You wrote:

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 12:41 AM, said:

Let's settle this once and for all. This  is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a  formal call for reference.

...

On several threads our  good friend Johnny and others have taken to telling Mormons what our  doctrines are. Specifically, they are prooftexting a few words from 2  Nephi 25:23:

From this snippet from this single verse, critics  repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of  grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace  of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up  the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics'  self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to  the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I  believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or  deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a  manner.

Speaking in General Conference, President Marion G. Romney, stated (in 1979):

Quote

It will require maximum effort for us to bring ourselves within the reach of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ so that we can be saved. There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anyone go through those gates who wants to go through on the efforts of another.

President Romney apparently believed that the efficacy of the salvation bought by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ was in part dependent upon our performing works personally up until the point that we finally, at some point, come "within the reach of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ so that we can be saved." Apparently, for Romney, the atoning blood of Jesus Christ was dependent upon bringing ourselves within its reach through "maximum (personal) effort."

Romney apparently didn't believe that our works are required to make up the meritorious deficit of Christ's atonment; rather, our personal works, our "maximum effort," is a causal precondition of having the meritorious deficit made up by Christ's atonement. See my clarification above.

In any case, it seems obvious to me that Romney taught that "our own works are required to make up the difference," whether or not one front- or back-loads that requirement.

And, of course, he does draw his scriptural support for this teaching from the passage in question:

Quote

The truth was spoken by Nephi when he said, "We are saved [by grace], after all we can do" (2 Ne. 25:23).

See President Marion G. Romney, Ensign--Conference Report (May 1979): 94.

Best.

cks

Edited by cksalmon, 08 January 2009 - 09:15 PM.

[cksalmon]

Hi Six--

You wrote:

Quote

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference [again, see my clarifying comment on this above--cks].

Elder Gene Cook, speaking of "understanding grace" in General Conference in 1993, stated:

Quote

Doing all in your own power is the fourth principle. Truly did Paul teach, "By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: "Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9; emphasis in original).

Yes, works alone cannot bring that divine gift, but they are a key condition upon which the gift [i.e., grace--cks] is received. "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).

(Elder Gene R. Cook, "Receiving Divine Assistance through the Grace of the Lord," Ensign--Conference Report [May 1993]: 79)

In his talk, Cook clearly relates "grace" (or, "enabling assistance") to salvation. He also clearly states in the above that God's grace is conditional upon our works, that is, "doing all in [our] own power" (apparently to merit the grace that is causally dependent upon our personal works).

Best.

cks

Edited by cksalmon, 09 January 2009 - 05:39 PM.

[mpschmitt]

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 12:41 AM, said:

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

On several threads our good friend Johnny and others have taken to telling Mormons what our doctrines are. Specifically, they are prooftexting a few words from 2 Nephi 25:23:
From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works.

Regards,

Six

This is from my response to the James White topic, but I think it is relevant here. I've found the Book of Mormon and the Bible to be entirely consistent on the topics of Grace and works. Here's a short list of scriptures that when compared with one another demonstrate that pretty well:
Matthew 7:21 http://scriptures.ld...en/matt/7/21#21
Matthew 25 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/25
Romans Chapter 5 http://scriptures.ld...2,15,17,20-21#2
Romans 6:14-23 http://scriptures.ld.../rom/6/14-23#14
Moroni 10:32-33 http://scriptures.ld...oro/10/32-33#32
Ether 12:27 http://scriptures.ld.../26-27,36,41#26
2 Nephi 10:24-25 http://scriptures.ld..._ne/10/24-25#24
2 Nephi 25:23 http://scriptures.ld...n/2_ne/25/23#23
James Chapter 2 http://scriptures.ld...s/2/18,20,26#18

[johnny]

mpschmitt

Quote

I've found the Book of Mormon and the Bible to be entirely consistent on the topics of Grace and works.

What I have found is that the teachings of the Mormon Church and the Book of Mormon are NOT consistent with what the Bible reveals on the topics of the Grace and works.

The Bible does NOT reveal the following Mormon Church teachings:

• The Book of Mormon 2Nephi 25 ([23] For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.)
  
• -
  
• Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?
  
• -
  
• Ensign, Nov 2001 Our salvation depends on believing in and accepting the Atonement. 1 Such acceptance requires a continual effort to understand it more fully. The Atonement advances our mortal course of learning by making it possible for our natures to become perfect. 2 All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Saviorâ??s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt. 3 ... I am profoundly grateful for the principle of saving grace. Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone , â??for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.â? ...  The Atonement and the Resurrection accomplish many things. The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. 25 After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Saviorâ??s grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us. ... (James E. Faust, â??The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope,â?)
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 18  "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?
  
• -
  
• GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Grace "The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adamâ??s fall and also because of manâ??s weaknesses."

Quote

Here's a short list of scriptures that when compared with one another demonstrate that pretty well:

Below are Bible scriptures that you listed ... they demonstrate that the teachings of the Mormon Church teachings and Mormon scripture are NOT consistent with what the Bible reveals.

• Matt.7 ([21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.)
  
• -
  
• Matt.25 ([25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.)
  
• -
  
• Rom.5 ([2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.)
  
• -
  
• Jas.2 ([18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.)