408 replies to this topic

[Doctor Steuss]

consiglieri, on Dec 31 2008, 11:05 AM, said:

An insightful and piquant reply, Herr Doktor!

Once again, you have me thinking.

As I travel the roads of disbelief, it tends to be more comfortable focusing on orthopraxy than orthodoxy.  Itâ??s not very good for the ego to think youâ??re going to hellâ?¦ itâ??s only good thinking that everyone else is.

I first started toying the the concept after reading Backgrounds of Early Christianity by Everett Ferguson where he says:

God's greatest gift to his people was the revealed Torah.  The law was both a grace and a duty:  it was to be kept, of course, but it was above all a gift, a privilege, and not a burden. (pg.541)

Later, I came accross the same concept in a reprint (Kregel Classics -- 1997) of Alfred Edersheim's The Temple: Its Ministry and Services as They Were at the Time of Jesus Christ:

It is a beautifully significant practice of the modern Jews, that, before fulfilling any special observance directed in their Law, they always first bless God for the giving of it. One might almost compare the idea underlying this, and much else of a similar character in the present religious life of Israel, to the good fruits which the soil of Palestine bore even during the Sabbatical years, when it lay untilled. For it is intended to express that the Law is felt not a burden, but a gift of God in which to rejoice. (pg.120)

One way of potentially looking at it (that I've been toying with) is that G-d gave the initial law to lead to Christ.  Christ gave the greater law to lead to G-d.  The law is given by G-d's grace.  His grace went even further by having someone (Christ) accept His gift of the law completely on behalf of us who fill our lives with lesser things.

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By the way, it was me with the chocolate.

Now, whereâ??s the beef?

Edited by Doctor Steuss, 31 December 2008 - 12:29 PM.

[ERayR]

I think that one of the required works for salvation is to be able to interact with johnny on a tread without losing it.  If thats the case I'm in trouble.

[johnny]

Bsix

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I asked Johnny:

I have ask you twice now ... why do you continue to avoid the question ... the question is ... What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

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Johnny, can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

We have been over this at the thread below.  Ordinances are not necessary for those who have NOT heard the gospel. Those who do evil to the end will not live with the heavenly Father.

Lutheran Brand of Catholicism
http://www.mormonapo...mp;p=1208567771

[johnny]

consiglieri

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Then it appears your beliefs are in accord with the Book of Mormon, after all.

My beliefs are NOT in accord with the BoM -  I don't believe in "saved, after all we can do" like the BoM reveals.

[Luigi]

Just so you know Johnny I have so much faith in grace that I believe it will save me even if I don't believe in it.  

[Bsix]

I have ask you twice now ... why do you continue to avoid the question ... the question is ... What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

Johnny...I have answered your questions here on this thread and on the other thread. Now, I may not have formulated my answer exactly how you imagined, but I have directly answered the questions posed to me. Perhaps if you make your question more specific, I will attempt to answer again.

Speaking of avioding questions, you have made the non-answer-changing-the-subject and art form.

I have asked you a few simple yes- or-no questions that you seem to be avoiding. Here they are again:

Johnny, can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

Be baptized?

Be confirmed?

Avoid mortal and grave sins?

Confess and receive absolution?

Live righteously to the end?

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

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God's commandments.

Which commandments are necessary to live with our heavenly Father?

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Please explain "it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life". What happens if your works do not bear fruit? Are you still saved with eternal life? To my unlearned ears/eyes, it sounds a lot like works being an ingredient for eternal life.

The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness.

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We must follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Which teachings must we follow to live with our heavenly Father?

[johnny]

Bsix

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I have ask you twice now ... why do you continue to avoid the question ... the question is ... What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

To live with our heavenly Father you must NOT willfully turn away from to God, see Catholic teaching below:

• 1037 - God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end

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Johnny...I have answered your questions here on this thread and on the other thread. Now, I may not have formulated my answer exactly how you imagined, but I have directly answered the questions posed to me. Perhaps if you make your question more specific, I will attempt to answer again.

Must you do the following commands and believe the following to live with our heavenly Father?

• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 36  "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
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• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."
  
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• Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 38 "Eternal marriage must be performed by proper authority in the temple ... Before we can go to the temple . . . We must be interviewed . . . asked questions like . . . Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator? . . . Are you a full-tithe payer? . . . Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?"

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Johnny, can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

The bottom line on those items is  that "a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end" to go to hell (CCC1037).

[Flyonthewall]

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 12:52 PM, said:

Flyonthewall
Which commandments are necessary to live with our heavenly Father?

Are you tryng to make this harder than it is?  It is very simple...All the commandments can be summed up in the two given in the New Testatment- Love God, Love thy neighbor.  If you love God, then you will obey His word.  If you love your neighbor, you will treat them like you would like to be treated.

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The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness.

Careful Johnny, this is awfully close to saying that works are required for salvation.  It sounds as if you are saying that works of the individual(whether or not they are done by the grace of God, the individual still has to do them) determines if one is profitable or not.

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Which teachings must we follow to live with our heavenly Father?

The ones He has given us not prefaced by "this is optional but..." or suffixed with "you really don't have to do that one, I just threw that in for kicks and giggles".

Edited by Flyonthewall, 31 December 2008 - 01:18 PM.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

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Are you tryng to make this harder than it is? It is very simple...All the commandments can be summed up in the two given in the New Testatment- Love God, Love thy neighbor. If you love God, then you will obey His word. If you love your neighbor, you will treat them like you would like to be treated.

Are these Mormon commandments necessary to live with our heavenly Father?

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36  "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."

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Careful Johnny, this is awfully close to saying that works are required for salvation. It sounds as if you are saying that works of the individual(whether or not they are done by the grace of God, the individual still has to do them) determines if one is profitable or not.

I am saying it in the context of the many other verses in the Bible that reveal that we not saved by works.

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The ones He has given us not prefaced by "this is optional but..." or suffixed with "you really don't have to do that one, I just threw that in for kicks and giggles".

For me the Mormon commandments of marriage, children, wine, tobacco, coffee are not necessary for a person to live with our heavenly Father.  I would consider these man-made commandments.

[captain-jack]

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

Flyonthewall

I know you meant it for him, but I feel like throwing in my two pieces of eight. So I will concede that you do not have to answer me directly on these.

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

Are these Mormon commandments necessary to live with our heavenly Father?

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36  "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."

Yes, if you want to get to the Celestial Kingdom. However, that doesn't mean that if you have ever not followed those, then you cannot get there.

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

I am saying it in the context of the many other verses in the Bible that reveal that we not saved by works.

In the context? Meaning that it is an interpretation? We do not interpret our Scriptures to say that we are saved by works, either. Or do you read our Scripture in that context?

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

For me the Mormon commandments of marriage, children, wine, tobacco, coffee are not necessary for a person to live with our heavenly Father.  I would consider these man-made commandments.

For me: saying Rosaries, believing in Nicene Creed, and allowing of many sins while still being "saved" are man-made commandments that are counter productive to God's plan for us.

[Bsix]

Johnny, for the third time...

Can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

Be baptized?

Be confirmed?

Avoid mortal and grave sins?

Confess and receive absolution?

Live righteously to the end?

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

captain-jack

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I know you meant it for him, but I feel like throwing in my two pieces of eight. So I will concede that you do not have to answer me directly on these.

Thanks for the reply ...

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Yes, if you want to get to the Celestial Kingdom. However, that doesn't mean that if you have ever not followed those, then you cannot get there.

Are those Mormon commandments considered works ... are they part of "after all we can do"?

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In the context? Meaning that it is an interpretation? We do not interpret our Scriptures to say that we are saved by works, either. Or do you read our Scripture in that context?

I would read the following as saved by works

- saved, after all we can do (BoM)
- saved, by obedience (A/F 3

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For me: saying Rosaries, believing in Nicene Creed, and allowing of many sins while still being "saved" are man-made commandments that are counter productive to God's plan for us.

These are not commandments.

[johnny]

Bsix

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Can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

- A sincere believe who refuses to be baptized can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuse to be confirmed can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuses to avoid mortal and grave can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuse to confess and receive absolution can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuses to live righteously to the end can still be saved by grace.

[Flyonthewall]

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

Flyonthewall
Are these Mormon commandments necessary to live with our heavenly Father?

• Gospel Principles Chapter 36  "... each of us has been commanded to marry and have children ...."
  
• -
  
• Gospel Principles Chapter 29 "The Lord commands us not to use wine ... tobacco ... coffee ..."

You consider them "mormon" commandments, I consider them to be God's commandments.  How can one expect to live with our Heavenly Father if they are not willing to obey Him?(means "yes")

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I am saying it in the context of the many other verses in the Bible that reveal that we not saved by works.

Are you then saying that salvation is not by works, but we can lose our salvation if we don't have works - being an unprofitable servant?

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For me the Mormon God's commandments of marriage, children, wine, tobacco, coffee are not necessary for a person to live with our heavenly Father.  I would consider these man-made commandments.

Being non-LDS, this is understandable.

[Bsix]

Johnny:

Thanks for answering my question. You said:

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- A sincere believe who refuses to be baptized can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuse to be confirmed can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuses to avoid mortal and grave can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuse to confess and receive absolution can still be saved by grace.
- A sincere believer who refuses to live righteously to the end can still be saved by grace.

This seems completely at odds with any official Catholic docrtrine I have ever read and at odds with the other Catholics on this message board.

Regards,

Six

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

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You consider them "mormon" commandments, I consider them to be God's commandments. How can one expect to live with our Heavenly Father if they are not willing to obey Him?(means "yes")

I would not consider marriage God's commandment because marriage was not commanded by the Lord, the Lord taught both marriage and being unmarried for the kingdom of God for those who can receive it (Matt 19:10-12). Jesus told his disciples that all men cannot receive the saying of marriage except to whom it is given (Matt 19:10,11).  

The apostle Paul taught that every man has his proper gift of God, he said to the unmarried to abide as him and those who cannot contain, let them marry (1Cor 7:6-9). Let everyone walk as the Lord has called them, it pleases the Lord that unmarried cared for the things that belong to the Lord (1Cor 7:17-34).

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Are you then saying that salvation is not by works, but we can lose our salvation if we don't have works - being an unprofitable servant?

I am saying that Paul clearly says we not saved according to our works. Those who do evil will be damned.

• 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )
  
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• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  
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• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )

[Tanyan]

I have stated this before and will do so again, Read the whole chapter of  2 Nephi 1-30 to get the context and true interpetation of what "all we can do" means, it's simple Johnny [And other critics], my 11-12 year olds I used to teach in Church Primary Sunday School were not Brainiacs but they could see/understand it. Also try reading Alma 24:11 [The Whole chapter] to get what "All we can/could do" means. Also get a good LDS BofM commentary and look up this verse and see what it says about that verse [and chapter as well].

    Now that verse has been Christianized for our day and the "All we can do" is keeping the 2 great commandments and all those sub commandments that fall under the great 2 commandments. This must be done out of True Faith [Pistis] in Jesus Christ and nothing else.Yes we all fall and come up short, but the LORD  looks at our Hearts/Minds and knows that thou there are times we all stumble,fall short, come up empty, we truly want to obey and serve. And he acctepts that.

    The importance is accessing and making alive that "Grace" and stay in that covenant of Jesus Christs Grace so as to having been/being currently/will be Saved Condition in our journey/quest to arrive at the Kingdom of Heaven.

   From one Catholic I have come accross to another [Johnny]see : http://matt1618.free...w.com/salv.html

   In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[johnny]

Bsix

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This seems completely at odds with any official Catholic docrtrine I have ever read and at odds with the other Catholics on this message board.

It is obvious you do not understand Catholic Doctrine or grace... that is why I gave you the one Catholic teaching below because it summarizes it best.  A person will live with our heavenly Father if they don't go to hell.

• 1037 - God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end

[Bsix]

In a spirit of fairness, I will attempt to answer Johnny's quesiton of me:

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What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

I can live with my Father in Heaven through the Atonement of Christ by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Specifically this breaks down into three general catagories of faithful and sincere obidience:

1) Faith. Faith in Jesus Christ and his Gospel is the foundational principle of salvation. It is the first principle of the Gospel.

2) Ordinances: Some churches call these sacraments. To live with Heavenly Father, we should be baptized, Confirmed/receive Holy Spirit, partaking of  the sacrament, and Temple Endowed.

3) Follow the commandments: This includes all matter of faithfully living the commandments of God -- loving God and Jesus Christ, dedicating your life to them, loving and serving your fellow man, enduring to the end and repenting of sins, consecrating time and goods to building the kingdom, living a chaste life, keeping the Sabbath Day holy, being honest and true, keeping our physical temples pure (Word of wisdom), and other acts that typify true discipleship.

That's it.

Now within Mormon theology, there are some nuances.

The gift of resurrection is a free and univerals free gift from the Grace of God. You do not have to do anything to receive it.

For virtually all humankind, there is a grace-based salvation in the heavens for those who never believed, or who believed but did not have sufficient faith to obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. This too is a free gift of the atoning grace.

Lastly, for those who do live with in heaven with Heavenly Father and choose to be married for time and all eternity, they can be exalted...become like God.

Regards,

Six