408 replies to this topic

[Bsix]

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

On several threads our good friend Johnny and others have taken to telling Mormons what our doctrines are. Specifically, they are prooftexting a few words from 2 Nephi 25:23:

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2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works.

Regards,

Six

[robuchan]

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 12:41 AM, said:

Let's settle this once and for all. This is...according to the rules and customs of this discussion board a formal call for reference.

On several threads our good friend Johnny and others have taken to telling Mormons what our doctrines are. Specifically, they are prooftexting a few words from 2 Nephi 25:23:
From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

Such a claim relies on the critics' self-serving interpretation of this passage of the Book of Mormon to the exclusion of all other LDS scriptures and theological commentary.

I believe that the critics of Mormonism are either ignorant or deliberately deceptive to represent this passage in such a manner.

I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works.

Regards,

Six

I like Stephen Robinson's interpretation and believe it is the correct and most logical.  But the GA's almost always interpret it the opposite way, which I believe is wrong.

[Bsix]

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I like Stephen Robinson's interpretation and believe it is the correct and most logical. But the GA's almost always interpret it the opposite way, which I believe is wrong.

Some references and quotes would be most helpful. BTW...I am not aware of any LDS theologians that interpret the passage in the manner that the critics do.

I understand that any LDS interpretation will accept that our works are a requirement for grace to apply to us...but we do not teach that our works atone for our sins or create our own grace. Or for that matter, that our works are required to assure the efficacy of grace.

Thanks,

Six

Edited by Bsix, 31 December 2008 - 01:05 AM.

[Vex]

I only see two plausible explinations to this scripture:

• After all the works we do they amount to nothing and as such we are saved only on the merits of Christ, eg: His Grace to which one is allowed to receive if he so choices.
  
• That after all we have done, after all we can do, we are only subject to the Grace of Christ in orders of salvation.

Both fundamentally similar yet different enough to cause contention with those who desire to prooftext it.  Considering the circumstances of the scripture in question as well as the context there is no other possible definition or allusion to supply a different meaning to it.  Please note that Nephi does not say that the labors themselves brought salvation, but that they were works and attempts to bring others to Christ.  If that's the case then we by default cannot assume that any amount of Works that one engages in will amount to such salvation.

I second the call for any references to which one may lay claim to the contrary.

[RubyHunter]

robuchan, on Dec 31 2008, 01:55 AM, said:

I like Stephen Robinson's interpretation and believe it is the correct and most logical.  But the GA's almost always interpret it the opposite way, which I believe is wrong.

This is just my own personal view, but if you think the General Authorities are interpreting scripture wrong... maybe you should check your spiritual compass and do a 180.

I trust the GA's and their tap to God WAY more than you.

-G

[sethpayne]

robuchan, on Dec 31 2008, 12:55 AM, said:

I like Stephen Robinson's interpretation and believe it is the correct and most logical.  But the GA's almost always interpret it the opposite way, which I believe is wrong.

In all probability I am a complete idiot but Robinson's interpretation seems to simply state *the opposite* of what the verse actually says.

I like Robinson's interpretation better.... and indeed I wish that the verse read "in spite of all we can do."  Problem is, the most straightforward interpretation of this verse aligns with the GA interpretation  

[sethpayne]

RubyHunter, on Dec 31 2008, 01:58 AM, said:

This is just my own personal view, but if you think the General Authorities are interpreting scripture wrong... maybe you should check your spiritual compass and do a 180.

I trust the GA's and their tap to God WAY more than you.

-G

Yes..... GAs have NEVER interpreted a scripture incorrectly.  

[consiglieri]

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 01:41 AM, said:

I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works.

If you insist!  

Quote

Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye In Holy Places, p.236, 246

"For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.

* * *

The Lord will bless us to the degree to which we keep His commandments. Nephi put this principle in a tremendous orbit when he said:

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. (2 Nephi 25:23.)

The Savior's blood, His atonement, will save us, but only after we have done all we can to save ourselves by keeping His commandments.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[johnny]

Bsix

Quote

From this snippet from this single verse, critics repeatedly declare that Mormon doctrine denies the saving power of grace alone. They claim that Mormons teach that somehow the grace of Christ is inadequate and that our own works are required to make up the difference.

The Mormon Church teaches:

• Gospel Principles Chapter 12  "Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective  ...  we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments ...we may return to live with our Heavenly Father."

Quote

I challenge Johnny and others to cite LDS exegesis interpretations of 2 Nephi 25:23 to support their claim that this passage teaches that salvation can be obtained in whole or in part through grace created by the saving power of our own works.

The Mormon Church teaches:

• Gospel Principles Chapter 18  "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?
  
• -
  
• Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?

[Bsix]

Thanks for the quotes. The risk of asking for references is that you get what you ask for and the results do not support your point of view. If I am in error, so be it. I will adjust my views and move on.

While I do appreciate the quotes so far, they don't quite get to the point I was asking for.

What is i believe suggested by the critics using 2 Nephi 25:23...and I disagree with...it that Mormonism holds that our own works literally have atoning power in and of themselves.

A couple of mortgage metaphors to clarify the point of 2 Nephi 25:23.

1) Think of sin like a mortgage debt that must be satisfied or we will be cast out into prison. We created the debt and are responsible for it. With the critic's 2 Nephi 25:23 interpretation...we are obligated to pay as much of the debt as we possibly can through our own hard work and efforts. Because we will inevitably fall short, the Savior will pay the portion of the debt we are incapable of paying.

The assumption with this version of the metaphor is that we are capable of satisfying debt through our own works...that we can literally atone for our own sins in some manner. In this scenario, Jesus covers only our unpaid portion of our sin debt. The Gospel of Jesus is partial grace. We partially save ourselves and Jesus satisfies the difference. This is not the LDS view.

2) In a second version of the metaphor, mortgage debt is still sin. The debt must still be satisfied we will be cast out and into into prison. We created the debt and are responsible for it. In this 2 Nephi 25:23 version...we have absolutely no capability of paying our debt. None whatsoever. We are condemned. In this metaphor, Jesus pays the complete debt offers forgiveness if we turn to him as the Savior. Our obligation is to be as faithful to him as is in our power to do so. After we have done all we can do to be faithful to his Gospel, the Lord will save us through his grace.

The assumption of this version of the metaphor is that we are all sinners and have all suffered spiritual death. As sinners, we are incapable of satisfying any portion of the debt through our own works. Only the Savior can atone for sin. In this scenario, Jesus covers all of our sin debt. The Gospel is the offer of full grace. We obtain grace through faith and obidience. I believe that this is the correct LDS view...or pretty close to it.

I believe that when LDS speakers make reference to doing our part, they are instructing us to fulfill our obligation as confessed believers who are dependent on the saving grace of Jesus Christ. When we as believers have done all that we can sincerely do as believers, we will be judged for our faith and works and be rewarded with salvation. As God warns in the Bible, if we are lukewarm God will spew us out. God expects complete devotion.

I do not believe that the speakers of the quotes thus far intended to convey the concept of the first metaphor. (We atone for a portion of our sins) I do not believe that LDS theology holds that we humans are capable of atoning for even the smallest fraction of our own sins. Our doctrine is that the atonement covers each and every sin ever committed by humankind. Jesus bore the entire burden because we simple could not.

If there are references that clearly support metaphor 1, I would appreciate seeing them. I do not believe that we have seen those so far. Or, I am wrong and that is EXACTLY what those speakers are attempting to convey, please weigh in and correct me.

Regards,

Six

Edited by Bsix, 31 December 2008 - 09:15 AM.

[johnny]

Bsix

Quote

If I am in error, so be it. I will adjust my views and move on.

Do you believe you are saved by obedience like the 3rd A/F says (see below)?

• Articles of Faith "3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.â?

Quote

What is i believe suggested by the critics using 2 Nephi 25:23...and I disagree with...it that Mormonism holds that our own works literally have atoning power in and of themselves.

This critic has not suggested "that Mormonism holds that our own works literally have atoning power in and of themselves".

I suggested that Mormonism holds "saved, after all we can do" or "saved, by obedience" like the A/F states.

What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

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Our doctrine is that the atonement covers each and every sin ever committed by humankind. Jesus bore the entire burden because we simple could not.

Do you believe that your works of righteous are essential to bring the atoning power of God into our lives?

[Bsix]

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AoF3: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

I absolutely believe that statement. I think it perfectly outlines the order and priority of grace based salvation by means of faith and obidience.

1) We are saved by the atonement -- grace -- of Jesus Christ. Not through our own ability to atone for any of our sins.

2) To have the atonment apply in our lives we must follow the Gospel and its requirement. This means obeying all of God's commandments and performing the ordinances required by God. As has been explained in detail in other threads, these are the works of the faithful. Works that do not have saving power in and of themselves...but they are the required acts of true believers that will merit eternal life through the atoning grace of Jesus Christ.

I believe that the third article of faith is completely consistent with the Bible. As per the recent lengthy discussion, I do not believe that the spirit and intent of this Article of Faith is not at odds with Catholic concepts regarding the interplay of faith/grace/and works.

In fact, the third article of faith seems to be competley consistent with how the Catholic Doors Ministry summarizes the Catholic requirments for Salvation. They declare that to be saved, a person must:

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Have faith in Jesus,

This is a law of the Gospel...a commandment...a work.

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Be properly baptized, and...

This is an ordinance of the Gospel...a law...a work.

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Die in a state of righteousness.

This is covers an entire host of laws and ordiances of the Gospel. The Catholic Doors Ministry decribes this part of the Catholic salvation requirements as a baptised adult "who is in a state of grace because he/she"...

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...has received the Sacrament of Confession on a regular basis and...

...received the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist during Sunday attendance at the Holy Mass as required by the Precept of the Church, (Canon Law # 1247)

The Catholic Doors Ministry also support the notion of humand being responsible for believers doing all they can to be worthy of salvation. They declare:

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To receive the free gift of salvation, Catholics must until their last breath, maintain the righteousness that they received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Ongoing righteousness is maintained through the reception of the Sacraments of Confession and the Holy Eucharist.

Regarding the requirements to obey the laws of the Gospel, the Catholic Doors Ministry declaresL

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Within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it states, "If (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back." (C.C.C. # 1861)

Quote

Johnny: What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

I think that the Third Article of Faith pretty much covers it as a general summary.

In turn, I ask Johhny...

According to the Catholic Church, what does a believer have do to live with our Heavenly Father?

Have faith?

Be Baptised?

Obey the laws of the Gospel? (Avoid grave and mortal sins)

Perform the other required sacraments (ordinances) of the Gospel such as confirmation, confession, the Holy Eucharist, Last Rtes, etc.

Are those all requirements for believing Catholics to be saved? Do you believe that these laws must be obeyed and these sacraments (ordinances) performed in faith to  be  saved by grace?

If so, how is your belief substanatively different from my interpretation of 2 Nephie 25:23 and the Third Article of Faith?

Regards,

Six

Edited by Bsix, 31 December 2008 - 11:52 AM.

[consiglieri]

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 10:58 AM, said:

What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?
Do you believe that your works of righteous are essential to bring the atoning power of God into our lives?

The Book of Mormon teaches that there are no righteous works without the atoning power of God.

Do you agree or disagree with this Book of Mormon teaching, Johnny?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Doctor Steuss]

Bsix, on Dec 31 2008, 08:10 AM, said:

[...]
What is i believe suggested by the critics using 2 Nephi 25:23...and I disagree with...it that Mormonism holds that our own works literally have atoning power in and of themselves.
[...]

I personally like to keep Mosiah 2 in mind when looking at this passage.  It tends to make it seem that in the end, what we can do is really nothing in comparison to what G-d has purportedly done.

On the flip-side:  When the passage is taken on its own, it does seem that our works "literally have atoning power in and of themselves."  And, perhaps they do.  Is it not through G-d's grace that the law was given?  Could He not just have easily withheld the law from man?  If the law has no atoning power, why was it necessary for Christ to fulfill it?

And most importantly, who got chocolate in my peanut butter?

Edited by Doctor Steuss, 31 December 2008 - 11:52 AM.

[consiglieri]

Doctor Steuss, on Dec 31 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

On the flip-side:  When the passage is taken on its own, it does seem that our works "literally have atoning power in and of themselves."  And, perhaps they do.  Is it not through G-d's grace that the law was given?  Could He not just have easily withheld the law from man?  If the law has no atoning power, why was it necessary for Christ to fulfill it?

An insightful and piquant reply, Herr Doktor!

Once again, you have me thinking.

By the way, it was me with the chocolate.

[johnny]

Bsix

Quote

2) To have the atonment apply in our lives we must follow the Gospel and its requirement. This means obeying all of God's commandments and performing the ordinances required by God.

What commandments do you have to obey to live with our heavenly Father?

Quote

I believe that the third article of faith is completely consistent with the Bible. As per the recent lengthy discussion, I do not believe that the spirit and intent of this Article of Faith is not at odds with Catholic concepts regarding the interplay of faith/grace/and works.

The third article of faith is not consistent with the Bible or with Catholic concepts (see below), neither the Bible nor Catholic concepts suggest "after all we can do".

• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works , lest any man should boast. )
  
• -
  
• 1697 - For it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life

Quote

I think that the Third Article of Faith pretty much covers it as a general summary.

Why do you avoid the question of ... again I ask you What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

Quote

In turn, I ask Johhny...

1697 - For it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life

[johnny]

consiglieri

Quote

Do you agree or disagree with this Book of Mormon teaching, Johnny?

I agree with what the Bible which says,

• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)

[Bsix]

I asked Johnny:

Quote

According to the Catholic Church, what does a believer have do to live with our Heavenly Father?

Johnny replied:

Quote

[CCC] 1697 - For it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life

To me, this answers the power of 'how' Catholics believe they have eternal life...not what they have to do to live with Heavenly Father.

I guess that I have to be more direct and simple.

Johnny, can sincere believers refuse to do the following...and still be saved by Grace? Yes or no answers will do fine.

Be baptized?

Be confirmed?

Avoid mortal and grave sins?

Confess and receive absolution?

Live righteously to the end?

Regards,

Six

[consiglieri]

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 01:14 PM, said:

consiglieri
I agree

Then it appears your beliefs are in accord with the Book of Mormon, after all.

Quit fighting it, Johnny.  You're one of us, now.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Flyonthewall]

johnny, on Dec 31 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

Bsix
What commandments do you have to obey to live with our heavenly Father?

God's commandments.

Quote

The third article of faith is not consistent with the Bible or with Catholic concepts (see below), neither the Bible nor Catholic concepts suggest "after all we can do".

• Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works , lest any man should boast. )
  
• -
  
• 1697 - For it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life

Please explain "it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life".  What happens if your works do not bear fruit?  Are you still saved with eternal life?  To my unlearned ears/eyes, it sounds a lot like works being an ingredient for eternal life.

Quote

Why do you avoid the question of ... again I ask you What do you have to do to live with our heavenly Father?

We must follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.