Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

urroner

Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

Recommended Posts

urroner

Dang, with that definition Johnny, then I guess we are all on the same page. I never realized that simply by defining "works" in that way would make it so easy.

Could you explain how your definition fits in with the following Mormon scripture and teaching?

  • Mormon Scripture The Book of Mormon 2Nephi 25 ([23] For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.)
  • -
  • Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?

Share this post


Link to post
There is a difference between the "works" of the law of Moses, which are refered to in scriptures like Romans 11:5 & 6, and the actions required to follow the teachings of Christ, which are refered to in scriptures like James 2. I know the same term is used for both, such is the nature of language, but the difference between the two are obvious. Otherwise the Bible is in direct contradiction with itself.

Essentially, the actions required to follow the very teachings that Christ gave to us are being said to be of no worth in the matter of salvation....meaining that to be saved, one does not need to be a follower of Christ, but merely recite certain words to make one's intentions known(there being no need to actually do anything about one's intentions - that would be "works")

I have looked around and have found a type of legalism when it comes to defining "works." To get around the problem of works vs. grace, especially when it is realized that there are things that we have to do in order to gain salvation, repentance, baptism, keeping the commandments, I have seen many Christians do one of two things, they either say that keeping the commandments, repentance, or getting baptized are no long necessary or they define this things not as "works," rather they define them as "obedience" and then they simply define "obedience" as "not works."

Then some of the sites I visited do something very interesting, they say there isn't just one type of grace, there are two types of graces:

* Unconditional grace in which one receives a favor but has no choice in the matter. The favor is given regardless of the choice, character, life, or conduct of the receiver.

* Conditional grace in which a gift is offered, but to receive it one must do certain things or act in certain ways. God's grace makes the gift available, but the person has the power to choose to do or not do whatever is required to receive it. Yet what is done does not earn the gift.

This starts to make more sense, but the to get the conditional grace, we don't earn it, but we have to do things to get it. Sounds like that saying, "Urroner, here couple of billion dollars for you. You didn't earn it, but if you hadn't worked to become one of the Big Three CEOs, you wouldn't have received it." Okay, I didn't earn it, but if I didn't do something, like work, then I wouldn't have received it. But if we go by the definition of work is anything that doesn't affect my salvation, I guess it fits, strictly by definition.

And we Mormon defenders are accused of doing all sorts of contortionist tricks to get our beliefs to line up.

Share this post


Link to post

Bsix

Saved by Grace. Judged by works.

If works, then it is no more grace, see below

  • Rom.11( [5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )

Share this post


Link to post
urroner

Could you explain how your definition fits in with the following Mormon scripture and teaching?

  • Mormon Scripture The Book of Mormon 2Nephi 25 ([23] For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.)
  • -
  • Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 18 "There must be works with faith. ... Faith involves doing all we can to bring about the things we hope and pray for.â?

Johnny, I'm trying to understand how you RCCers and EVers define "works." I'm not trying to define "works" for us LDSers, nor am I going to define it in this thread. Occasionally I might slip up and try to defend it, but I'm just trying to find what other mean by "works." So far, no EVer or RCCer has attempted to do so. You have told me what it isn't, but not what it is. You have said that you can't do it, but then that makes a discussion of "works vs. grace" impossible.

Being an engineer, if I am giving a definition and I either don't understand it or I disagree with it, I will ask questions. It's not that I'm rejecting the definition, it's that I'm trying to clarify the definition and/or to understand it better. The answer could be and still be perfectly acceptable, "I don't know," but that make future discussion very difficult.

We LDSers are accused of not being able to define what is or what isn't doctrine, but so far, when it comes to taking the cake, you and the EVers are totally obscure when it comes to defining "works."

I would simply like a definition of "works." Is that asking too much?

Share this post


Link to post

Johnny:

Do you ignore or disagree with the many Biblical statements that declare that we will be judged according to our works? Not the least of which is the declaration by our Lord and Savior himself:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

For the sake of friendly, constructive discussion.

-- What is the purpose of the individual works-based judgement?

-- What is the result of the works=based judgements spoken of by the Bible?

-- How do the works-based judgement affect our eternal reward (salvation)?

-- If the works-based judgements have no bearing or relevance upon our eteranl reward (salvation) why is there a judgement? What purpose does it serve?

Thanks,

Six

Share this post


Link to post

As is clearly pointed out in James 2, "works" or the actions required to follow the teachings of Christ, are what complete one's faith. Without these actions, or "works", faith is not perfected and is dead. Will dead faith do anything for you? No.

James 2: 14, 17-18, 20-22, 24-26

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

â?¢ â?¢ â?¢

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

â?¢ â?¢ â?¢

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

â?¢ â?¢ â?¢

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Now if we are saved by grace through faith, and faith is dead without "works"(the actions required to follow the teachings of Christ), then it is very clear that we are to follow the teachings of Christ to give life to our faith, faith being the vehicle we access grace through.

Salvation from physical death(resurrection) is automatic for all earthly inhabitants.

Salvation from the second death (Exhaltation) is based on obedience(still dependent upon the grace of God but is fair and just).

This is nothing new, this is very basic stuff. I am surprised that Johnny does not understand this part of LDS teachings, even if he doesn't agree with them.

Share this post


Link to post

urroner

Johnny, I'm trying to understand how you RCCers and EVers define "works."

The teaching of the Catholic Church do not define "works" but teaches what the Bible reveals. Below are some Catholic Church teachings:

  • 308 - God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" [Phil 2:13; 1Cor 12:6]
  • -
  • 1697 - For it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life

I'm not trying to define "works" for us LDSers, nor am I going to define it in this thread.

I am not asking you to define "works", I am asking HOW does your usage fit with Mormon scripture and Mormon teachings?

From my point of view you are saying something different than what the Mormon church teaches.

So far, no EVer or RCCer has attempted to do so. You have told me what it isn't, but not what it is.

I have told you what the Bible reveals, which is that belief is not a work.

You have said that you can't do it, but then that makes a discussion of "works vs. grace" impossible.

The discussion is straight forward if you want to reason from the scriptures.

Being an engineer, if I am giving a definition and I either don't understand it or I disagree with it, I will ask questions. It's not that I'm rejecting the definition, it's that I'm trying to clarify the definition and/or to understand it better. The answer could be and still be perfectly acceptable, "I don't know," but that make future discussion very difficult.

Being a Mormon who believes in the Bible I would think you would seek clarification using scripture.

We LDSers are accused of not being able to define what is or what isn't doctrine, but so far, when it comes to taking the cake, you and the EVers are totally obscure when it comes to defining "works."

The teaching of the RCC are consistent with what the Bible reveals.

I would simply like a definition of "works." Is that asking too much?

I am not aware of a general definition of "work" from a biblical perspective.

Share this post


Link to post

Bsix

Do you ignore or disagree with the many Biblical statements that declare that we will be judged according to our works? Not the least of which is the declaration by our Lord and Savior himself:

Why did you ignore Rom 11:5?

Belief or not belief determines who is saved or damned, see below

  • Mark.16 ([16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.)

Share this post


Link to post

Urroner, wasn't it you that started a thread about the back and forth of quoting scripture with a million different interpretations. Couldn't have been more timely. This thread is a perfect example of that.

Even "the Devil can cite scripture for his purpose". Shakespeare

Big UP!

Lamanite

Share this post


Link to post

Flyonthewall

Salvation from physical death(resurrection) is automatic for all earthly inhabitants.

Resurrection is automatic. Salvation is not automatic, it is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Salvation from the second death (Exhaltation) is based on obedience(still dependent upon the grace of God but is fair and just).

Exaltation is not salvation from the second death. All who are saved with not experience second death.

Share this post


Link to post
Flyonthewall

Resurrection is automatic. Salvation is not automatic, it is through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Exaltation is not salvation from the second death. All who are saved with not experience second death.

Congratulations Johnny you have just defined Mormon doctrine very well. See we can agree on some things.

Share this post


Link to post

ERayR

Congratulations Johnny you have just defined Mormon doctrine very well. See we can agree on some things.

Mormon doctrine is "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do ", neither the Bible nor I agree with Mormon doctrine.

Share this post


Link to post
So we have to do something.

I keep hearing "you must accept Christ," "you must believe," or "you must have faith." First I am told that I have to do something, then I am told that I don't have to do something. Then when I question that contradiction, I am told that I don't have to do anything by accepting Christ, believing, or having faith. But that gives me a really empty feeling that maybe I don't understand plain English anymore. From what I understand of English, my first language, "to believe," "to accept" or "to have faith" all active and not passive, these all mean that I have to do something.

Could someone please help me understand the inconsistencies that I have listed? Has my understanding of the language I have spoken for the past 55 years changed so much?

Here is where your confusion is:

Salvation is "objective". Jesus said: "It is finished"

Accepting is "subjective".

Share this post


Link to post
ERayR

Mormon doctrine is "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do ", neither the Bible nor I agree with Mormon doctrine.

The Bible does, though, in my view. Perhaps your interpretation differs from mine but that is a different story.

Share this post


Link to post
ERayR

Mormon doctrine is "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do ", neither the Bible nor I agree with Mormon doctrine.

johnny: In your myopic frenzy to latch on to something you are overlooking the obvious. "After all we can do" means that after whatever we do we are still dependent on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Nothing we have or can do will save or exhault us. That must be done by Jesus Christ.

Love ya johnny (blinders and all)

Share this post


Link to post

LifeOnaPlate

The Bible does, though, in my view. Perhaps your interpretation differs from mine but that is a different story.

The interpretation is straightforward ... the difference is clear, Mormon doctrine adds "after all we can do" (see below).

  • The Book of Mormon 2Nephi 25 ([23] For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.)
  • -
  • Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )

Share this post


Link to post

ERayR

Nothing we have or can do will save or exhault us.

You appears you differ with the teachings of the Mormon teaches, you say "nothing" and the Mormon Church teaches ""Eternal Marriage Is Essential for Exaltation

Share this post


Link to post
LifeOnaPlate

The interpretation is straightforward ... the difference is clear, Mormon doctrine adds "after all we can do" (see below).

  • The Book of Mormon 2Nephi 25 ([23] For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.)
  • -
  • Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )

johnny; Please let go of your dislike for all things Mormon and open up your mind and understand that there are some who do know what they are talking about when the tell you we do believe it is by and through the atonement of Jesus Christ that salvation and exhaultation comes. Please TRY AND CEASE TELLING US WHAT WE BELIEVE and listen to what we tell you we believe. Please johnny please.

Share this post


Link to post

ERayR

johnny; Please let go of your dislike for all things Mormon and open up your mind and understand that there are some who do know what they are talking about when the tell you we do believe it is by and through the atonement of Jesus Christ that salvation and exhaultation comes. Please TRY AND CEASE TELLING US WHAT WE BELIEVE and listen to what we tell you we believe. Please johnny please.
I am listening, do you believe "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do"?

Do you believe this is the same or different than "by grace are ye saved through faith"?

Share this post


Link to post

Johnny:

I am disappointed. I sincerely asked for how you reconcile particular Bible teachings. I tried to give you an opportunity to explain how you see the role of Biblical works-based judgement and reward factor with grace.

I am of the opinion that understanding the Bible goes well beyond cherry-picking passages and ignoring those that do not agree with a given dogma. I am interested in how you apply exegesis to the Bible that clearly teaches grace...but also teaches works, judgement based on works, and eternal reward and salvation based on works and judgement.

Another passage that is of worthy consideration is Revelations 20.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Can you help us understand this passage in context with the 'grace-only' passage you cite? Who is being judged? Upon what basis are they being judged? What are the "works" spoken of here? What is the role of grace and faith in this judgement? What happens to those whom are not written in the "Book of Life?" What is the second death?

I am familiar with all of the passages you cite in support of your view. Do you...or are you capable of...having a doctrinal view that reconciles the numerous passages on this subject.

If so, please share.

Regards,

Six

Share this post


Link to post
ERayRI am listening, do you believe "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do"?

Do you believe this is the same or different than "by grace are ye saved through faith"?

johnny: Do you still beat your wife? This johnny is the kind of question you are asking. See post #65 this thread. It would also be nice if you would answer Bsix.

Share this post


Link to post
ERayRI am listening, do you believe "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do"?

Do you believe this is the same or different than "by grace are ye saved through faith"?

I'll take your bait; they are the same.

Do you believe they are the same or different? Isn't that what you wanted to say?

Share this post


Link to post

Bsix

I am disappointed. I sincerely asked for how you reconcile particular Bible teachings. I tried to give you an opportunity to explain how you see the role of Biblical works-based judgement and reward factor with grace.

Those who believe do good, those who do not believe do evil. Those who have done good come forth in the resurrection of life. Those who have done evil come forth in the resurrection of damnation.

I am of the opinion that understanding the Bible goes well beyond cherry-picking passages and ignoring those that do not agree with a given dogma. I am interested in how you apply exegesis to the Bible that clearly teaches grace...but also teaches works, judgement based on works, and eternal reward and salvation based on works and judgement.

Works do not save, it is by grace we are saved through faith. We show our faith by through works of mercy. Faith is made perfect by doing, Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac. Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, he did not doubt God's promise in unbelief; rather, he was empowered by faith and gave glory to God. We work out our salvation for it is God which works in us to do his purpose. We keep God's commandments because we love Him.

Another passage that is of worthy consideration is Revelations 20.

They who do the works of the flesh shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Can you help us understand this passage in context with the 'grace-only' passage you cite? Who is being judged? Upon what basis are they being judged? What are the "works" spoken of here? What is the role of grace and faith in this judgement? What happens to those whom are not written in the "Book of Life?" What is the second death?

I am not "grace only", I am grace and faith. Every man is judged according to their works, the work of flesh or the work of the Spirit. Through faith comes the works of the Spirit. Those not in the book of life are cast in the lake of fire with Satan which is the second death.

Share this post


Link to post

sean0scott

I'll take your bait; they are the same.

If they are the same, why the extra words "after all we can do"?

Do you believe they are the same or different? Isn't that what you wanted to say?

I believe they are different ... the bible does not have the words "after all we can do".

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...