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urroner

Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

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It's not a condition because we are working FROM our salvation, not FOR our salvation.

"For our salvation" or "from our salvation", it's all semantics. When one gets down to brass thumbtacks, if we don't appreciate what the Lord has done for us and we don't love the Lord, can we be saved? The answer I have always received, in most cases, is no, we have to appreciate what the Lord has done for us and we must love the Lord rather it's for our salvation or from our salvation.

Yes or no, do you believe that if somebody doesn't appreciate what the Lord has done for us and that person doesn't love the Lord, can that person be saved?

Yes or no, do Mormons believe that if somebody doesn't appreciate what the Lord has done for us and that person doesn't love the Lord, can that person be saved?

You say potato, I say potahtoe

So being saved by faith alone is more motivating than being saved by faith plus something we do.

Salvation is not about what somebody believes to best motivates.

Have you ever seen government provided housing where the tenants don't have to put an effort into the maintenance of their dwellings? I have and it's not a pretty site. If people don't have a stake in their future, then they don't worry about it and they sink to the lowest level of effort.

Being forgiven unconditionally by faith alone is more motivating than being saved on condition of something we do. The reason is because our focus is on how great our freind is rather than on how great we have to become!

Love like that motivates!

Does that answer your questions?

I disagree. Yes, we can focus on how great our friend is, but what if our great friend expects us to also focus on what we can become because he expects great things from us? Why would God the Father send His Son to die for us if neither of them expected great and wonderful things from us during this life and in the next life?

In your theology, why did God create us? Why did He create anything? Was He lacking in something? Did He need something to make Him more self-fulfilled? Does He need things to worship, adore, and sing unending praises to Him? Would God do something that He doesn't need to do? Do you really believe that God created us simply to just sing Him praise and glory forever and ever and ever or to have us rot in Hell forever and ever and ever and all this for His pleasure? Doesn't sound like a very loving Father to me. Sounds rather egotistical to me.

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So are you saying these words of Christ are no longer in effect? We can disregard these words?

Perhaps we can disregard all of Christ's words before He paid the price?

Wasn't Christ speaking to us from Acts onward? Or do those words not count?

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Wasn't Christ speaking to us from Acts onward? Or do those words not count?

So we can simply forget what Christ said before the Crucifixion? Are you saying that the OT is of no use today? Are the precepts and principles taught in the Sermon on the Mount of no or little use to us today because it was before the Crucifixion?

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So we can simply forget what Christ said before the Crucifixion? Are you saying that the OT is of no use today? Are the precepts and principles taught in the Sermon on the Mount of no or little use to us today because it was before the Crucifixion?

Is that a yes or a no?

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Wasn't Christ speaking to us from Acts onward? Or do those words not count?
Which words in Acts onward contradict and overrule the words of Christ while he yet ministered?

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Which words in Acts onward contradict and overrule the words of Christ while he yet ministered?

Question on the table.

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Is that a yes or a no?

It's several different questions looking for answers, be they"yes," "no,", "I don't know," or whatever you feel is the answer.

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Question on the table.
Okay, I'll answer your question.

Christ speaks in Acts and so do the apostles. The apostles do the speaking in all the books after Acts in the form of letters preaching the word of God.

Now...

Which words in Acts or the other books aftewards contradict and overrule the words of Christ while he yet ministered?

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Okay, I'll answer your question.

Christ speaks in Acts and so do the apostles. The apostles do the speaking in all the books after Acts in the form of letters preaching the word of God.

Now...

Which words in Acts or the other books aftewards contradict and overrule the words of Christ while he yet ministered?

Sorry, I don't understand. Are you saying that from acts on is, or is not, God's word?

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Sorry, I don't understand. Are you saying that from acts on is, or is not, God's word?
Which part didn't you understand? Christ speaking His own words or the Apostles preaching the word of God?

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Which part didn't you understand? Christ speaking His own words or the Apostles preaching the wod of God?

Both. Neither. :P

Is acts to rev the word of God or not. Simple yes or no will do.

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Both. Neither. :P

Is acts to rev the word of God or not. Simple yes or no will do.

I consider them the words of God. That'd be a yes.

Now...

Which words in the NT in Acts - Revelatoin contradict and overrule the words of Christ while He yet ministered?

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Both. Neither. :P

Is acts to rev the word of God or not. Simple yes or no will do.

Are the Gospels just as valid as Acts and the Epistles in the NT?

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I consider them the words of God. That'd be a yes. Now...Which words in the NT in Acts - Revelatoin contradict and overrule the words of Christ while He yet ministered?
None.

But here's some food for thought, to show that with Christ's death came the payment for our sin and that we under grace (being gentiles and all)

Romans 5:2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of GodRomans

5:15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many

Romans 6:14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace

Corinthians 12:9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness " Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Galatians 2:9and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Galatians 2:21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Are the Gospels just as valid as Acts and the Epistles in the NT?

Of course. But how could Jesus preach grace and redemption from sin when he had not died yet? After all, there wasn't even a church then.

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None.
If they do not contradict or overrule, then forgiveness is still conditional, just as Christ taught.
But here's some food for thought, to show that with Christ's death came the payment for our sin and that we under grace (being gentiles and all)

Romans 5:2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of GodRomans

5:15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many

Romans 6:14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace

Corinthians 12:9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness " Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Galatians 2:9and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Galatians 2:21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

These are all good scriptural passages, and I see them as agreeing with the words of Christ and the LDS POV.

It was the sermon on the mount where Jesus taught that we need to forgive others to obtain forgiveness for ourselves. The sermon on the mount is where He actively started to fulfill/replace the Law of Moses and teaching the new covenant, so I consider His words on forgiveness still in effect.

Of course. But how could Jesus preach grace and redemption from sin when he had not died yet? After all, there wasn't even a church then.
Christ's atonement is eternal. It was part of the plan. The Law of Moses pointed to the atonement of Christ so it was known before. The Law of Sacrafice was instilled from Adam, and it is a type and shadow of the sacrifice Christ would make. The atonement was known from Adam on, and Adam was not under the "Law" of Moses. If the atonement was known from the beginning, then redemption by grace was known also, even if the atonement was in the future.

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If God decides not to save them, then they won't be saved. It seems to me that you expect me to decide whether people should be saved or damned. I really appreciate you faith in me, but you faith in me in extremely misplaced. I have no desire to place my butt in Christ's judgement seat. Why do you want me to judge others?

We are talking past each other, because you will not give me a definition for salvation. And I am not asking you to judge for God. From published LDS works, you have a rough idea of the entrance requirements of each kingdom.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism

"Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except the sons of perdition. . .It is evident from such teachings that there are different degrees or levels of salvation in the afterlife (see Degrees of Glory)."

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Salvation

According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, salvation will come to all except the sons of perdition. Celestial, Terrestial, and Telestial kingdoms are all degrees of Glory and are "different degrees of salvation".

So let me ask you again, someone headed for the Telestial kingdom like a murderer who curses God, is that person saved according to the LDS definition?

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We are talking past each other, because you will not give me a definition for salvation. And I am not asking you to judge for God. From published LDS works, you have a rough idea of the entrance requirements of each kingdom.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism

"Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except the sons of perdition. . .It is evident from such teachings that there are different degrees or levels of salvation in the afterlife (see Degrees of Glory)."

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Salvation

According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, salvation will come to all except the sons of perdition. Celestial, Terrestial, and Telestial kingdoms are all degrees of Glory and are "different degrees of salvation".

So let me ask you again, someone headed for the Telestial kingdom like a murderer who curses God, is that person saved according to the LDS definition?

A person headed to the Tel Kingdom will receive up to all the salvation possible for a person headed to the Tel Kingdom. He/she is saved as far as and will receive all the rewards that the Lord is willing to bless him/her with. Wouldn't you agree Billy?

I don't know why you are pestering me for a definition of salvation, I already gave you one.

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A person headed to the Tel Kingdom will receive up to all the salvation possible for a person headed to the Tel Kingdom. He/she is saved as far as and will receive all the rewards that the Lord is willing to bless him/her with. Wouldn't you agree Billy?

I don't know why you are pestering me for a definition of salvation, I already gave you one.

I am pestering you because I don't really have a clear view of the definition of the LDS term of salvation. The first definition you gave below is vague.

Salvation is being saved.

Then you qualified your definition by adding works

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

But when you added works, i.e. laws and ordinances, this goes against LDS theology, because those headed to the Telestial Kingdom, which is a degree of GLORY, are saved as noted in Encyclopedia of Mormonism "Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children "

Yes, but I don't recall any go around saying that they are saved and there is nothing they can do to stop their salvation.

Here you blame the EV for claiming that there is nothing that they can do to stop their salvation. How is this different from the murderer who curses God and ends up in the Telestial Kingdom, a degree of Glory, and a degree of LDS salvation?

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I am pestering you because I don't really have a clear view of the definition of the LDS term of salvation. The first definition you gave below is vague.

Your definition of works is just as vague and you purposefully made it so. Tell you what Billy, you clarify your definition of "works" and I'll be more than happy to clarify my definition of "saved." Is that a deal?

You have given enough half answers and evasions responses to last me nearly a full year and we're only three weeks into the year. When you are willing to seriously discuss gospel principles then I'll be more than happy to seriously discuss them with you, but from what I have seen of your responses, I have seen very little seriousness. Basically all I have seen is somebody who is here on this board who only wants to harass, taunt, and evade.

When you give me a definition of "works" that more fully fits into your paradigm of the gospel, I'll be willing to respond, otherwise I won't.

Have a nice day Billy.

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