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urroner

Salvation, Is It A Grace vs. Works Problem

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Is belief an action on our part or is it something that God forces us to do?

I see belief more as trust. I would say that God gives the abiltiy to trust Him.

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I see belief more as trust. I would say that God gives the abiltiy to trust Him.

What does one do to receive this gift from God? (ie the ability to trust Him)

If nothing, why does He give it to some and not others?

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I see belief more as trust. I would say that God gives the abiltiy to trust Him.

I see a couple of problems here. God does give us the ability to trust him, much like He gives us the ability to do good, but do we decide whether to use that ability or not or does God force us to do good. Does God force us to be saved? If only God has everything to do with our and we have nothing to do with it, then why doesn't He save all? Does He love some more than others and if so, why?

Is it really a matter of my accepting Christ or a matter of Christ forcing me to do his will?

Is it really a matter of my having faith in Christ or him forcing me to have faith?

Is it really a matter of the Lord deciding that he wants to save me or damn me and my having no decision in the matter?

If it's a matter of total grace and no works on my part, then it's the latter, I have no decision in the matter, it's totally up to God.

This is how I understand the position of some Christians:

Only God decides who is saved and who isn't saved. As much as people protest, God created us in a fallen state, we really had no choice whether we are fallen or not, we are, from the second we are born, we are fallen and it wasn't nothing we could do about it. If this wasn't so, then if we lived a perfect life, then we could say that salvation could come by works, but since salvation only comes by grace, living a perfect life would not avail us anything, we would still be on the highway to hell without grace, so it's not our fault that we are going to Hell. Whose fault is it?

So for those of you who believe that works play no part in our salvation, that it's only grace, did I get it right above? If we lived a perfect life, would we have to have grace to go to Heaven? Is it even possible for somebody who isn't part God to live a perfect life?

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urroner

I see a couple of problems here. God does give us the ability to trust him, much like He gives us the ability to do good, but do we decide whether to use that ability or not or does God force us to do good. Does God force us to be saved? If only God has everything to do with our and we have nothing to do with it, then why doesn't He save all? Does He love some more than others and if so, why?

God does not force us to be saved. Being saved is about grace and faith. Our part is faith, God's part is grace. He doesn't save all because men have the free choice to believe or not believe. If they do not believe then they are damned.

Is it really a matter of my accepting Christ or a matter of Christ forcing me to do his will?

Is it really a matter of my having faith in Christ or him forcing me to have faith?

Is it really a matter of the Lord deciding that he wants to save me or damn me and my having no decision in the matter?

It is a matter of believing. Christ does not force you to believe. You have a decision, you can believe or not believe.

If it's a matter of total grace and no works on my part, then it's the latter, I have no decision in the matter, it's totally up to God.

It is a matter of grace and faith, works have no part in being saved. You have a decision to believe or not believe.

This is how I understand the position of some Christians:

The position of some Christians is grace and faith.

Only God decides who is saved and who isn't saved. As much as people protest, God created us in a fallen state, we really had no choice whether we are fallen or not, we are, from the second we are born, we are fallen and it wasn't nothing we could do about it. If this wasn't so, then if we lived a perfect life, then we could say that salvation could come by works, but since salvation only comes by grace, living a perfect life would not avail us anything, we would still be on the highway to hell without grace, so it's not our fault that we are going to Hell. Whose fault is it?

It is your choice if you want to go to to Hell. If you do not believe you are damned.

So for those of you who believe that works play no part in our salvation, that it's only grace, did I get it right above? If we lived a perfect life, would we have to have grace to go to Heaven? Is it even possible for somebody who isn't part God to live a perfect life?

Works plays no part in being saved, it is only grace and faith.

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Works is something that we have to do. Grace is something that God or Jesus do. Am I right here?

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urroner

Works is something that we have to do. Grace is something that God or Jesus do. Am I right here?

Works is not something we have to do to be saved.

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urroner

Works is not something we have to do to be saved.

Johnny, can you just answer the question?

If we have to do something, anything, then is it considered works? A "yes" or a "no" would be fine and then you can explain why you answered. "I don't know" would also be fine. I'm trying to figure out what those who believe in "grace only" mean when they say "work."

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urroner

Johnny, can you just answer the question?

Your question is poorly word to be answered directly.

If we have to do something, anything, then is it considered works? A "yes" or a "no" would be fine and then you can explain why you answered.

According to scripture the answer is "no".

I'm trying to figure out what those who believe in "grace only" mean when they say "work."

Below are some scriptures that might help you figure it out:

  • Rom.11( [5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )
  • -
  • Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  • -
  • Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  • -
  • 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )

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So when people tell me that I need to do this and I need to do that, then they are mistaken?

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urroner

So when people tell me that I need to do this and I need to do that, then they are mistaken?

They are mistaken if they are telling you that works are needed to be saved.

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urroner

They are mistaken if they are telling you that works are needed to be saved.

So are you saying that they are mistaken when I need to do this and need to do that, for example, I need to accept this and I need to believe that?

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You keep telling us we have to believe or have to have faith though Johnny.

I understand that you appear not to believe these are works but could you explain a little.

Grothar, is quizzical

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urroner

So are you saying that they are mistaken when I need to do this and need to do that, for example, I need to accept this and I need to believe that?

I am saying believe and you shall be saved, see below:

  • Acts.16 ([30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house)

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urroner

I am saying believe and you shall be saved, see below:

  • Acts.16 ([30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house)

Once again, you are the Johnny I have come to know and love...and not able to directly answer a question.

Is believing something I have to do to be saved or something that is done to me? Do I have any choice in believing or is it something that I have no choice in?

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urroner

Once again, you are the Johnny I have come to know and love...and not able to directly answer a question.

Like I said your questions are poorly worded to be answered directly.

Is believing something I have to do to be saved or something that is done to me? Do I have any choice in believing or is it something that I have no choice in?

Belief is a choice, you can choose to believe or not believe.

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urroner

Like I said your questions are poorly worded to be answered directly.

Belief is a choice, you can choose to believe or not believe.

So, if belief is a choice, something that I choose to do or not to do, it can be considered a work, since I decide what to do and not to do.

Johnny, if my questions are poorly worded, how should I word them to make them more understandable?

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So, if belief is a choice, something that I choose to do or not to do, it can be considered a work, since I decide what to do and not to do.

Whether or not YOU consider belief a work, do you agree that all that is required for exaltation is faith?

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urroner

So, if belief is a choice, something that I choose to do or not to do, it can be considered a work, since I decide what to do and not to do.

Scripture does not consider it a work, see the scriptures in post #33

Johnny, if my questions are poorly worded, how should I word them to make them more understandable?

It is not so much making them more understandable, it is making them more open for other possiable answer instead of the answer you are fishing for so that you can make your point.

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urroner

Scripture does not consider it a work, see the scriptures in post #33

It is not so much making them more understandable, it is making them more open for other possiable answer instead of the answer you are fishing for so that you can make your point.

Okay, can you please define for me what a "work" is so I don't have to go fishing.

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urroner

Okay, can you please define for me what a "work" is so I don't have to go fishing.

So you don't have to go fishing, below are some scriptures. From these scriptures is evident that belief is not considered a work because these scriptures say over and over "not of works" , see below:

  • Acts.16 ([30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house)
  • -
  • Rom.11( [5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )
  • -
  • Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  • -
  • Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  • -
  • 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )

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urroner

So you don't have to go fishing, below are some scriptures. From these scriptures is evident that belief is not considered a work because these scriptures say over and over "not of works" , see below:

  • Acts.16 ([30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house)
  • -
  • Rom.11( [5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )
  • -
  • Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. )
  • -
  • Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.)
  • -
  • 2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, )

Johnny, did I ask what wasn't work? No, I asked you to define "works" so we can be on the same page. Telling me what something isn't isn't telling me what it is. BTW, just quoting scriptures, especially when interpretations of those scriptures can lead to very different conclusions doesn't help very much either.

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urroner

Johnny, did I ask what wasn't work? No, I asked you to define "works" so we can be on the same page. Telling me what something isn't isn't telling me what it is.

I don't have a definition of "works" in general, I have provided scriptures to support the view that belief is not works.

BTW, just quoting scriptures, especially when interpretations of those scriptures can lead to very different conclusions doesn't help very much either.

Please provide your interpretation to the scriptures above ... if you can please provide scriptures that support your view that belief is works.

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urroner

I don't have a definition of "works" in general, I have provided scriptures to support the view that belief is not works.

Please provide your interpretation to the scriptures above ... if you can please provide scriptures that support your view that belief is works.

Just what I thought, you don't have a definition for "works," so it can mean anything you want it to mean. It can mean one thing today and then tomorrow it changes. Basically, let me try to come up with how I believe you define "works." Let me know if I'm wrong. "Works" is anything that isn't important to salvation even if it's something that we have to do.

If we must believe, then believing is not works.

If we must accept the Lord and the free gift, then accepting the Lord and the free gift are not works.

If loving the Lord is necessary for salvation and the only way we can show the Lord we love him is by keeping his commandments, then loving the Lord and keeping the commandments is not works.

Dang, with that definition Johnny, then I guess we are all on the same page. I never realized that simply by defining "works" in that way would make it so easy.

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There is a difference between the "works" of the law of Moses, which are refered to in scriptures like Romans 11:5 & 6, and the actions required to follow the teachings of Christ, which are refered to in scriptures like James 2. I know the same term is used for both, such is the nature of language, but the difference between the two are obvious. Otherwise the Bible is in direct contradiction with itself.

Essentially, the actions required to follow the very teachings that Christ gave to us are being said to be of no worth in the matter of salvation....meaining that to be saved, one does not need to be a follower of Christ, but merely recite certain words to make one's intentions known(there being no need to actually do anything about one's intentions - that would be "works")

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Saved by Grace. Judged by works.

Its pretty simple.

Six

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