26 replies to this topic

[Mudcat]

Rommelator, on Dec 23 2008, 10:21 PM, said:

While I can understand the first part of your sentence, I am wondering what you see as American Revolutionism in Book of Mormon warfare. As I mentioned in my previous post, there is some remarkably un 19th century American traits in Book of Mormon warfare.

Hi Rommelator,

I am no historian, but as I remember the Americans were getting pretty well creamed in a straight up fight, so they shifted to guerrilla tactics with much success.
When you pair that with Moroni leading three armies using stratagem other than a full out assault... the flag of liberty and liberty principled speech it all seems very reminiscent of the Am. Rev.  Granted, the fact that I am an American may be leading me to some rather subjective conclusions on the matter.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Stargazer, on Dec 24 2008, 12:42 AM, said:

Anne, perhaps you missed Her Amun's post above where he shows an illustration of mesoamerican "swords":
Note that these swords are wooden with grooved edges in which segments of obsidian are inlaid.  Very very sharp.  Cortez's men recorded that using swords like this, Aztec warriors were able to decapitate a horse with one stroke.

Ouch.

Hey Stargazer,

Since I thought I would chime in on the sharpness of obsidian. Obsidian can hold a much keener edge than surgical steel and is used in surgeries where scar tissue is to be kept at a minimum. The blades can be thinned to cut at a near molecular level, which IMO is pretty impressive. Such fine cutting instruments might also give greater credence to Shiz gasping for breath.

However, the BoM gives one the impression, at least in a number of areas that their swords were made from metal. Obviously not all references to weapons indicate such, but if there were stone swords, the argument for them is a relatively silent one.

Mudcat

[LoudmouthMormon]

Mudcat, on Dec 22 2008, 08:25 PM, said:

The whole scope of Alma 44-46 seems comparative in many ways to early Revolutionary America.

Look at it this way: early Revolutionary America is comparative in many ways to countless instances throughout human history where people go to war over ideals.

LM
(Braveheart, any one?)

[Brant Gardner]

Mudcat, on Dec 24 2008, 09:02 AM, said:

I am no historian, but as I remember the Americans were getting pretty well creamed in a straight up fight, so they shifted to guerrilla tactics with much success.

I had that same impression. I think that there is some romance attached to it that we get taught instead of history. I was listening to a historian of the Revolutionary War who indicated that while such tactics were disruptive, it was the disciplined fighting that eventually won the war, not the "Indian" tactics. Not that there wasn't some strategy, think of the final scene in the move The Patriot which is based on a famous battle.

[Mudcat]

Bernard Gui, on Dec 24 2008, 02:51 AM, said:

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
http://www.jewishenc...p...92&letter=F

Bernard

Hey Bernard,

That is an interesting post and very supportive of the LDS position, in regards to flags.
Thanks for taking the time to share it.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Brant Gardner, on Dec 24 2008, 08:09 AM, said:

The problem with flag waving is that if you have  a flag, it tends to wave. That is rather the point of flags.

The way you put was quite funny... true but funny.

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They signal something. As for who uses them, the answer is pretty much everyone. The fact of a flag and waving it is way too universal to demonstrate that it has a connection to the American Revolution. It could-- but it could just as easily be Mesoamerican (or Chinese).

Ok agreed, with the plethora of posts regarding flags it may to broad a concept to address.

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Certainly, just as flags are widespread. It simply establishes the context of the scalping. The use to which the scalp was put was as a simile curse, not as a trophy. The context is important, not the uniqueness of the simile curses.

I don't know if I am following this... in regards to your statement regarding context.
I understand that there could be significance in linking the soldiers simile curse to mid-eastern curses as a possible reinforcement to historicity. However, if simile curses were used in 19th century America or in the KJV, then the concept could be to easily argued from the critical position as well. I suppose like flags, there may be to much evidence elsewhere to say that it has it roots here or there.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[cjcampbell]

Scalping and other forms of headhunting are as old as mankind. Virtually all cultures have practiced it at one time or another. Flags, torn coats, and other such emblems are also very nearly universal.

The scalping of Zarahemnah appears to have been accidental, however, and may explain the origins of this practice among the Indians.

Moroni's declaration of 'liberty' seems to have been not so much against foreign domination, as in the American Revolution, but a preservation of legitimate government. Moroni seems to equate liberty with the rule of law -- interesting in a gospel context, where we teach that sin leads to the loss of agency and that only obedience preserves it. Moroni wishes to preserve his freedom to worship, a completely different goal than that of the American Revolution.