26 replies to this topic

[Mudcat]

I am struggling a bit here.

Alma 44: The Scalping of Zerahemnah

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�? 12 And now when Moroni had said these words, Zerahemnah retained his sword, and he was angry with Moroni, and he rushed forward that he might slay Moroni; but as he raised his sword, behold, one of Moroniâ??s soldiers smote it even to the earth, and it broke by the hilt; and he also smote Zerahemnah that he took off his scalp and it fell to the earth. And Zerahemnah withdrew from before them into the midst of his soldiers.
�? �? 13 And it came to pass that the soldier who stood by, who smote off the scalp of Zerahemnah, took up the scalp from off the ground by the hair, and laid it upon the point of his sword, and stretched it forth unto them, saying unto them with a loud voice:
�? �? 14 Even as this scalp has fallen to the earth, which is the scalp of your chief, so shall ye fall to the earth except ye will deliver up your weapons of war and depart with a covenant of peace.
�? �? 15 Now there were many, when they heard these words and saw the scalp which was upon the sword, that were struck with fear; and many came forth and threw down their weapons of war at the feet of Moroni, and entered into a covenant of peace. And as many as entered into a covenant they suffered to depart into the wilderness.

Here Zerahemnah is scalped. The concept of taking a mans scalp and sticking it on a pike sounds very 'Indian' to me.

In Alma 46:

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�? �? 12 And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon itâ??aIn memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our childrenâ??and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.
�? �? 13 And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the landâ??

Here Moroni makes his flag and fastens it on a pike.... much like the scalp. His standard seems to be â??Libertyâ?.

IMO, given his guerrilla tactics in batttle and his quest for liberty, he is a very reminiscent to Washington.

The whole scope of Alma 44-46 seems comparative in many ways to early Revolutionary America.

With such a blatant comparative to the not so distant past, what is one to do. I must admit, as I have read through the BoM I have been open minded, but at this point I am having quite a bit of difficulty.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[LifeOnaPlate]

Did the simile curse in Alma 44 catch your eye? It didn't really play a part in JS's social milieu, yet there it is, right in the scalping story. "Even as this such and such as such and such, so shall etc." My guess is that you, as with me, overlooked it because you were tuned into something that resonated more with something you remember, ie, indian scalping. But note there are things in the text that will stick out to you and I given our backgrounds, whereas something like the similie curse would stick out to one attuned to this ancient near eastern pattern.

Anyway, according to a few Mesoamerican scholars, namely Linda Schele and Mary Ellen Miller, the idea of scalping was not foreign to the Mesoamerican scene. Not a whole lot of evidence, but there is nevertheless some evidence that scalping was a part of Maya warfare (see Schele and Miller, The Blood of Kings, George Braziller, Inc., New York, 1986, pp. 218, 228).

On the "liberty" issue, Richard Bushman has pointed out quite interestingly how the concept of liberty (and much of the political process in the Book of Mormon) are different than a Republican sense of those things especially in JS's day. Check his "The Book of Mormon and the American Revolution." Furthermore, liberty was a concept not foreign to the social environment from which the Lehites came. Think of the Israelites in Egypt for example. Also, Jeremiah, something of a contemporary with Lehi, proclaimed:

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9 This is the word that came unto Jeremiah from the Lord, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people which were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty unto them;
      â?¢  â?¢  â?¢
  15 And ye were now turned, and had done right in my sight, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbour; and ye had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name:
  16 But ye turned and polluted my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom ye had set at liberty at their pleasure, to return, and brought them into subjection, to be unto you for servants and for handmaids.
  17 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith the Lord, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. (Jer. 34: 8, 15-17)

Liberty is mentioned elsewhere in the OT as well, and possibly on the brass plates themselves.

Edited by LifeOnaPlate, 22 December 2008 - 09:15 PM.

[Mudcat]

LOaP

I'll read up on what you have posted and many thanks.

Your (Insert appopriate title here),

Mudcat

[Olavarria]

Hashbaz had a very good quote on flags a while back.

As for mesoamerican military commanders using flags, Moroni seems quite at home.




Alma 51:20
20) And the remainder of those dissenters, rather than be smitten down to the earth by the sword, yielded to the standard of liberty, and were compelled to hoist the title of liberty upon their towers, and in their cities, and to take up arms in defence of their country.

If you look at the bottum of the picture, you will see the temples the Spaniards called torres(towers). Notice that the sancturary on top of the tower is being burned down. That is what you did in mesoamerican warfare. When you took over a city, you desecrated the sanctuary atop the tower/temple.

[Rommelator]

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given his guerrilla tactics in batttle and his quest for liberty, he is a very reminiscent to Washington.

Define "guerrilla tactics" since, IMO, Daniel C. Peterson in the fantastic volume Warfare in the Book of Mormon has convincingly argued that, if anyone, the Gaddianton Robbers more closely resemble guerrilla warriors (instead of, say, Freemasons).

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The whole scope of Alma 44-46 seems comparative in many ways to early Revolutionary America.

I can understand how it could be read in that light. After all, before I encountered Brant Gardner's treatment on this I essentially read it in the same light too.

However, as Life and Her Amun, as well as Gardner and Sorenson for that matter, have pointed out, there are strong Mesoamerican traits and patterns being displayed in the war chapters in Alma and the Book of Mormon. So I guess it comes down to which do we take more seriously; that these chapters match Revolutionary War motifs or ancient Mesoamerican warfare?

The thing I find striking about the war chapters in Alma is how decidedly unromantic war is portrayed in the Book of Mormon. As Hugh Nibley pointed out in his valuable study on the subject many years ago, there is no romanticism about war in the Book of Mormon. No fife or drum or dramatic charges or brave and noble pursuits. No proud colorful banners waiving or patriotic music as the brave men rush into battle with the glorious sun shining above them! Instead, war is portrayed with a stark realism; something very unusual in Joseph Smith's environment, which nostalgically wrote about and hailed the Revolutionary War and other noble, brave and patriotic struggles for freedom. Instead, war is portrayed as something of a necessary but awful evil that the Nephites encountered from time to time, with disastrous results. As Dan Peterson once said, Mormon is something of a misanthrope when he writes about war and the impact it has on people.

And that's saying nothing about seasonal warfare and Book of Mormon fortifications.

[The Nehor]

I think Moroni is more reminiscent of Judah of the Maccabean Revolt.  Both fought foreign aggressors and dissidents within their own nation in the name of religious freedom and nationalistic self-determination.

I remember I once had a Seminary Teacher who talked about how some scholars believed that Judah even used something like a standard of liberty and compared it to Moroni.  I haven't checked the scholarship lately so I'm not sure if that claim is still seen as valid.

[Mudcat]

Rommelator, on Dec 23 2008, 12:02 AM, said:

Define "guerrilla tactics" since, IMO, Daniel C. Peterson in the fantastic volume Warfare in the Book of Mormon has convincingly argued that, if anyone, the Gaddianton Robbers more closely resemble guerrilla warriors (instead of, say, Freemasons).

Hey Romm,

I suppose my perception of "guerilla tactics", would be when Moroni used stratagem against the Lamanites. Specifically, when he concealed his three armies and basically set up an ambush. The BoM  took painstaking efforts to explain that Moroni was justified in his actions. One could fairly easily draw the conclusion that this may have been the first time such tactics were employed by a Nephite army. I don't know if that fits a definition of guerrilla tactics, specifically.  I mean its not like they embedded pungi sticks along the banks of Sidon, but it does seem to be very different tactics than meeting head on in a valley and clobber or be clobbered.

Respects,

Mudcat

[Brant Gardner]

Mudcat, on Dec 23 2008, 06:17 AM, said:

Hey Romm,

I suppose my perception of "guerilla tactics", would be when Moroni used stratagem against the Lamanites. Specifically, when he concealed his three armies and basically set up an ambush. The BoM  took painstaking efforts to explain that Moroni was justified in his actions. One could fairly easily draw the conclusion that this may have been the first time such tactics were employed by a Nephite army.

I'm glad you noticed not only the tactic, but the attempt to justify it. I think that tells us that it was not according to the normal rules accepted at that time. However, it clearly became an accepted tactic. It is recorded for at least one Aztec battle.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Mudcat, the painstaking efforts to justify the trickery is interesting. It seems Moroni was doing something unique, or that he was breaking some kind of unofficial protocol in his actions. Mormon the editor sees it as brilliant, but still goes to strange lengths to justify it.

[consiglieri]

Mudcat, on Dec 22 2008, 08:25 PM, said:

Here Zerahemnah is scalped. The concept of taking a mans scalp and sticking it on a pike sounds very 'Indian' to me.

Here Moroni makes his flag and fastens it on a pike.... much like the scalp. His standard seems to be â??Libertyâ?.

Dear Mudcat,

Commendations to you on your close reading of the Book of Mormon text, and for allowing others to attempt to answer the questions you raise in the process.

1. Zarahemnah's scalp--You are right that this does sound particularly "Indian" to American readers; but may I suggest that is because, by and large, the only other incidents of scalping with which we are familiar are those of American Indians during frontier days.

Upon backing up and looking at the account again, I see a number of things that make it look differently: (1) This is not a scalp collected as a trophy of a victim; (2) It is not purposeful, but accidental, though purposeful use is made of it thereafter, in the strict tradition of ancient Middle Eastern simile curses, on which I posted another thread a while back; (3) This is not a case of the "bad guys" scalping a "good guy" but a "good guy" accidentally taking the scalp off a "bad guy," which sort of reverses what we might typically expect to happen if this were merely a reflection of early 19th century frontier American views on Indian practices.


2. Moroni's Flag--John L. Sorensen has mentioned (and now Her Amun has given us some nice images) of the ancient Mesoamerican battle practice of carrying a flag.  

Additionally, Hugh Nibley has pointed out a correspondence with the Dead Sea Scrolls, in which the "Battle Scroll" describes an idealized type of jihad between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness, in which the Sons of Light have different divisions, each of which is described as carrying a flag with not an image, as we Americans usually think, but rather a written phrase.  The similarity to Moroni's "Title of Liberty" is palpable.


All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S.  Just copied and pasted the OP from that thread on simile curses I mentioned:

________________________________

Averse as I am to mentioning the word, "bull's-eye" in reference to the Book of Mormon, Alma 46:21 recounts a "simile oath" taken by Captain Moroni's recruits, who rend their garments and say that if they should transgress the commandments, even so should God rend them.

A second simile oath is found in the verse immediately following (v. 22), where they cast their garments at Moroni's feet, saying that if they should fall into transgression, may God cast them at the feet of their enemies to be trodden under foot.

The relevant passage is below:

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Alma 46:21 And it came to pass that when Moroni had proclaimed these words, behold, the people came running together with their armor girded about their loins, rending their garments in token, or as a covenant, that they would not forsake the Lord their God; or, in other words, if they should transgress the commandments of God, or fall into transgression, and be ashamed to take upon them the name of Christ, the Lord should rend them even as they had rent their garments.
22 Now this was the covenant which they made, and they cast their garments at the feet of Moroni, saying: We covenant with our God, that we shall be destroyed, even as our brethren in the land northward, if we shall fall into transgression; yea, he may cast us at the feet of our enemies, even as we have cast our garments at thy feet to be trodden under foot, if we shall fall into transgression.

Scholarly research has found that such simile oaths occur in the ancient Near East. Although it appears unusual enough to find examples of the same type of simile oath in the Book of Mormon, an ancient Hittite soldier's oath is surprisingly similar to what we find in verse 22 above:

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He [the priest] presents to them [a . . . ]. Before their eyes he [throws] it on the ground; they trample it under foot and he speaks as follows: "Whoever breaks these oaths, even so let the Hatti people come and trample that man's town under foot."

Albrecht Goetze, "Hittite Rituals, Incantations, and Festivals," in James Pritchard, ed., Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament (Princeton: University of Princteon, 1955), 354. Cited in Terrence L. Szink, "An Oath of Allegiance in the Book of Mormon," in Stephen D. Ricks and William J. Hamblin, eds., Warfare in the Book of Mormon, 1989, p. 37.

Unfortunately, the tablet is unreadable at the spot where the object in the Hittite ritual is mentioned, but even with its absence, I think this is a remarkable bull's-eye for the Book of Mormon.

P.P.S.  Here is the link to the thread, which ended up yielding additional insights related to the Book of Mormon, causing me to write it up and submit it to BYU-Studies for consideration.

http://www.mormonapo...hl=simile curse

Edited by consiglieri, 23 December 2008 - 11:34 AM.

[Mudcat]

consiglieri, on Dec 23 2008, 12:29 PM, said:

Dear Mudcat,

Commendations to you on your close reading of the Book of Mormon text, and for allowing others to attempt to answer the questions you raise in the process.

1. Zarahemnah's scalp--You are right that this does sound particularly "Indian" to American readers; but may I suggest that is because, by and large, the only other incidents of scalping with which we are familiar are those of American Indians during frontier days.

Upon backing up and looking at the account again, I see a number of things that make it look differently: (1) This is not a scalp collected as a trophy of a victim; (2) It is not purposeful, but accidental, though purposeful use is made of it thereafter, in the strict tradition of ancient Middle Eastern simile curses, on which I posted another thread a while back; (3) This is not a case of the "bad guys" scalping a "good guy" but a "good guy" accidentally taking the scalp off a "bad guy," which sort of reverses what we might typically expect to happen if this were merely a reflection of early 19th century frontier American views on Indian practices.

Hey Consig,

Thanks for an, as always, well articulated well thought response, I saw your post on another thread, and went back to read this one. I suppose I suffer from front page syndrome..... I don't check on threads that aren't in the opener.... even my own. I suppose I would make a piss poor shepherd.

Emphasis mine, I suppose this is why it seems reminiscent of American Indians. It could be fairly easily hypothesized that if the text were not genuine, then JS was trying to draw a parallel to this event. Perhaps even a genesis, through accident, by which this gruesome tradition found its roots. It's critical speculation of course, but I would be lying if I didn't say the thought had crossed my mind.

In regards to your points...
1. I dunno Consig, the soldier stuck the scalp on a sword point and waived it about telling the enemy that the same would happen to them.... sounds like a trophy of sorts to me
2. Granted it was an accidental scalping, in regards to simile curses...so far I have skimmed LOaPs article... and don't know that I could give any credible response on it.
3. Here is another I am unsure of. If scalping was a traditional practice, I don't that you are a bad guy, because you scalped someone.... particularly if they were trying to steal your country.

Quote

2. Moroni's Flag--John L. Sorensen has mentioned (and now Her Amun has given us some nice images) of the ancient Mesoamerican battle practice of carrying a flag.  

Additionally, Hugh Nibley has pointed out a correspondence with the Dead Sea Scrolls, in which the "Battle Scroll" describes an idealized type of jihad between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness, in which the Sons of Light have different divisions, each of which is described as carrying a flag with not an image, as we Americans usually think, but rather a written phrase.  The similarity to Moroni's "Title of Liberty" is palpable.
All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I'll see if I can 'Google Up' Nibley's statement. Superficially, you have to admit that the concept of a flag waving, liberty preaching people could easily draw parallels to the Am. Revolution.... not to mention there seems to some similarity in warfare.

Quote

P.S.  Just copied and pasted the OP from that thread on simile curses I mentioned:

________________________________

Averse as I am to mentioning the word, "bull's-eye" in reference to the Book of Mormon, Alma 46:21 recounts a "simile oath" taken by Captain Moroni's recruits, who rend their garments and say that if they should transgress the commandments, even so should God rend them.

A second simile oath is found in the verse immediately following (v. 22), where they cast their garments at Moroni's feet, saying that if they should fall into transgression, may God cast them at the feet of their enemies to be trodden under foot.

The relevant passage is below:
Scholarly research has found that such simile oaths occur in the ancient Near East. Although it appears unusual enough to find examples of the same type of simile oath in the Book of Mormon, an ancient Hittite soldier's oath is surprisingly similar to what we find in verse 22 above:
Unfortunately, the tablet is unreadable at the spot where the object in the Hittite ritual is mentioned, but even with its absence, I think this is a remarkable bull's-eye for the Book of Mormon.

P.P.S.  Here is the link to the thread, which ended up yielding additional insights related to the Book of Mormon, causing me to write it up and submit it to BYU-Studies for consideration.

http://www.mormonapo...hl=simile curse

Maybe I am being guilty of not reading to much into this concept of simile cursing, but I suppose its because they are a natural function of my vocabulary. If I compete one on one with an individual, be it golf, tennis, video games, darts, etc... I trash talk quite a bit and use simile curses. I just didn't know what they were called. I see the same sort of dialect from my competitors as well. Isn't it just as plausible that simile curses that appear in more than one place, do so because people make similes?

Respectfully,  and wishing you a yours a wonderful Christmas.

Mudcat

Edited by Mudcat, 23 December 2008 - 07:08 PM.

[Rommelator]

Quote

Emphasis mine, I suppose this is why it seems reminiscent of American Indians. It could be fairly easily hypothesized that if the text were not genuine, then JS was trying to draw a parallel to this event. Perhaps even a genesis, through accident, by which this gruesome tradition found its roots. It's critical speculation of course, but I would be lying if I didn't say the thought had crossed my mind.

I think this is one of those moments when we have to decide for ourselves which parallel is stronger; the Mesoamerican/Near Eastern one or the North American Native American one.

And it is, obviously, going to be determined by our worldview and whether or not we accept the Book of Mormon. For those who do, then the Mesoamerican parallel is going to be more convincing. For those who don't, then the NA Indian one is going to be more convincing.

Quote

Superficially, you have to admit that the concept of a flag waving, liberty preaching people could easily draw parallels to the Am. Revolution.... not to mention there seems to some similarity in warfare.

While I can understand the first part of your sentence, I am wondering what you see as American Revolutionism in Book of Mormon warfare. As I mentioned in my previous post, there is some remarkably un 19th century American traits in Book of Mormon warfare.

[annewandering]

I can not resist the title of this thread. It calls to me every time I see it. Must have watched too many cowboy and indian shows when I was a kid?

One thing that struck me was that the scalp wasn't taken to take a scalp. He tried to kill the guy but mostly missed and got his hair instead. Undaunted he reaches down and grabs the scalp to use as a bit of Psychological Warfare. I bet it was pretty effective too! Imagine seeing your leaders hair on the enemies sword tip!  
Another thing I noticed was that he used a sword. I don't remember Indians being much into swords. Weren't they more into daggers and knives?
I am not a great historian on these but it seems to me that neither  were particularly usual for NA tribal warfare. The first being a matter of quick thinking and the second was just something I don't remember being used later on.

Any way thought it might be useful to see a 'regular' person respond with their thoughts.

[Scottie]

Is there any evidence that early Mesoamericans scalped anyone?

[annewandering]

Scottie, on Dec 23 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

Is there any evidence that early Mesoamericans scalped anyone?

It was accidental though. So does it matter if they did or didn't?

[LifeOnaPlate]

scottie: see post #2 in the thread.

[Rommelator]

Scottie, on Dec 23 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

Is there any evidence that early Mesoamericans scalped anyone?

Yes. Brant Gardner notes that scalping is not unique to North American Indian tribes. He notes that there is depiction of scalping as a part of Mayan warfare. He then references a book by Linda Schele and Mary Ellen Miller called The Blood of Kings published in 1986, page 228.

All this and more can be found in volume 4 page 588 of his excellent series Second Witness.

[Stargazer]

annewandering, on Dec 23 2008, 08:32 PM, said:

Another thing I noticed was that he used a sword. I don't remember Indians being much into swords. Weren't they more into daggers and knives?

Anne, perhaps you missed Her Amun's post above where he shows an illustration of mesoamerican "swords":

Her Amun, on Dec 22 2008, 09:04 PM, said:

Note that these swords are wooden with grooved edges in which segments of obsidian are inlaid.  Very very sharp.  Cortez's men recorded that using swords like this, Aztec warriors were able to decapitate a horse with one stroke.

Ouch.

[Bernard Gui]

The Nehor, on Dec 23 2008, 12:29 AM, said:

I think Moroni is more reminiscent of Judah of the Maccabean Revolt.  Both fought foreign aggressors and dissidents within their own nation in the name of religious freedom and nationalistic self-determination.

I remember I once had a Seminary Teacher who talked about how some scholars believed that Judah even used something like a standard of liberty and compared it to Moroni.  I haven't checked the scholarship lately so I'm not sure if that claim is still seen as valid.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

Quote

FLAG:    
By : Cyrus Adler   Judah David Eisenstein  

A standard or banner having a certain color, emblem, and sometimes an inscription, and carried before a marching army to distinguish its nationality. Flags are of ancient origin. According to the Bible, each of the twelve tribes of the Israelites had its special banner.

The Midrash (Num. R. ii.) on the passage "Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house" (Num. ii. 2), explains that the emblems and colors corresponded to the twelve precious stones set in the breastplate worn by the high priest, as follows:
see table

The Targum Yerushalmi says that the flag of Judah bore, over a roaring lion, the inscription "Rise up, Lord, and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thee" (Num. x. 35). A legend ascribes the origin of the name "Maccabee" to the phrase (abbreviated", Who is like thee among the mighties, O Lord"), written on the banner of the Hasmoneans.

In the synagogue at the Festival of the Rejoicing of the Law it is customary for children to carry in the procession together with the holy Scrolls flags of various designs.

The Zionists have adopted a flag made up of a white ground with a blue horizontal stripe on each side, and the shield of David in the center in blue.

http://www.jewishenc...p...92&letter=F

Bernard

[Brant Gardner]

Mudcat, on Dec 23 2008, 07:07 PM, said:

Emphasis mine, I suppose this is why it seems reminiscent of American Indians. It could be fairly easily hypothesized that if the text were not genuine, then JS was trying to draw a parallel to this event.

I don't know what Joseph Smith knew about taking scalps among the Native Americans he might have known about, but the Book of Mormon incident is wrong for that context. The Book of Mormon incident places the event in the context of a personal battle (right after a broken sword). The North American scalpings were after the defeat of an enemy and taken as a trophy of victory.

In the Book of Mormon, Zerahemnah is not "defeated." He fights on. The scalp is not used as a trophy of individual combat, but as a representation of an oath. The simile oath works, but North American scalping does not.

Quote

3. Here is another I am unsure of. If scalping was a traditional practice, I don't that you are a bad guy, because you scalped someone.... particularly if they were trying to steal your country.

No, it would have been practiced against other tribes. North American warfare was about individual bravery and personal victories.

Quote

I'll see if I can 'Google Up' Nibley's statement. Superficially, you have to admit that the concept of a flag waving, liberty preaching people could easily draw parallels to the Am. Revolution.... not to mention there seems to some similarity in warfare.

The problem with flag waving is that if you have  a flag, it tends to wave. That is rather the point of flags. They signal something. As for who uses them, the answer is pretty much everyone. The fact of a flag and waving it is way too universal to demonstrate that it has a connection to the American Revolution. It could-- but it could just as easily be Mesoamerican (or Chinese).

Quote

Maybe I am being guilty of not reading to much into this concept of simile cursing, but I suppose its because they are a natural function of my vocabulary. If I compete one on one with an individual, be it golf, tennis, video games, darts, etc... I trash talk quite a bit and use simile curses. I just didn't know what they were called. I see the same sort of dialect from my competitors as well. Isn't it just as plausible that simile curses that appear in more than one place, do so because people make similes?

Certainly, just as flags are widespread. It simply establishes the context of the scalping. The use to which the scalp was put was as a simile curse, not as a trophy. The context is important, not the uniqueness of the simile curses.