New Evidence Of Elephants In The Book Of Mormon?

[livy111us]

Jeff Lindsay has an interesting blog post here: http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2008/12/elep...mphotheres.html on this subject. He quotes wiki as saying:

The Gomphotheres are a diverse group of extinct elephant-like animals (proboscideans) that were widespread in North America during the Miocene and Pliocene epochs, 12-1.6 million years ago. Some also lived in parts of Eurasia and Beringia, and following the Great American Interchange, in South America. From about 5 million years ago onwards, they were slowly replaced by modern elephants, bu the last South American Species did not finally become extinct until as recently as 400 CE.

Gomphothere remains common at South American Paleo-Indian sites. One example is the early human settlement at Monte Verde, Chile, dating to approximately 14,000 years ago

The cited references above are (1) Palmer, D., ed. (1999). The Marshall Illustrated Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs and Prehistoric Animals. London: Marshall Editions. pp.239â??242. ISBN 1-84028-152-9, and (2) Prado, J. L.; Alberdi, M. T.; Azanza, B.; S

[Zakuska]

Are you sure thats what they look like...?

NICE FIND!

I'd love to see this studied a bit more from both pro-LDS and critics.

ME TO?!

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Very interesting...

Why is it that over the years the Book of Mormon looks more and more plausible and not less and less?

[consiglieri]

Very interesting...

Why is it that over the years the Book of Mormon looks more and more plausible and not less and less?

This is very interesting, and will fit in nicely with our study of the book of Ether in gospel doctrine class.

Now, what do you have for cureloms and cumoms?

Thanks for the link!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Zakuska]

She must be a Curelom!

[katherine the great]

Are you sure thats what they look like...?

Aww come on! That nose isn't nearly long enough! (were they snub nosed elephants?)

[katherine the great]

Now we just need to find a way to move the Book of Mormon setting to South America because we have elephants, and Llamas could have been mistaken for a form of horse. I don't think they lived in Mesoamerica though.

[Zakuska]

But the question is... were the Jaredites north or south of Zarahemla? If south I'd say we got a bulls-eye.

4. The Book of Mormon account – This is basically both 1 and 3. The Book of Ether records two sever genetic bottlenecks in Jaredite history. The first is the result of a drought and famine. It is also during this famine that a few Jaredites go to the “land southward”. Presumably this is South America. The second genetic bottleneck comes in the time of Ether and Coriantumr and is the result of a fratricidal civil war. Just as this civil war ends and the Jaradite population is at its lowest point two groups of colonists arrive in America from the Middle East. They are led by Lehi and Mulek respectively. It has been theorized since the late 19th century that Mulek’s men married Jaradite women and that is why they spoke a language foreign to the Nephites. It has also been theorized that Coriantumr fathered children while he lived among the Mulekites.

http://ldspatriot.wordpress.com/mormonism/...-of-mormon-dna/

Seems Im right.

[MAsh]

While this sounds interesting, I'd like to see more evidence that Glomphoteres didn't become extinct in the Americas till 400 CE (or anywhere near that date). As far as I've found, most scholars believe that proboscideans became extinct about 11,000 years ago (although there scholars that disagree with such a dating).

I'd like to see Palmer source (the source for the quote in the Wikipedia article) that gloms lived later than most people believed.

Mike Ash

[hagoth7]

This is good stuff. Thanks for passing on the word here livy.

And thanks to Jeff.

[Zakuska]

Heres the book...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Marshall-Illustrat...c/dp/1840281529

[katherine the great]

While this sounds interesting, I'd like to see more evidence that Glomphoteres didn't become extinct in the Americas till 400 CE (or anywhere near that date). As far as I've found, most scholars believe that proboscideans became extinct about 11,000 years ago (although there scholars that disagree with such a dating).

I'd like to see Palmer source (the source for the quote in the Wikipedia article) that gloms lived later than most people believed.

Mike Ash

I don't doubt that there were some type of elephant like creature among the Jaredites as the Book of Mormon stated, but I do agree that this article is a little confusing. It says that this creature may have lived as recently as 400 AD, but doesn't offer any type of documentation of why that may be. It only uses a find of about 11,000 bc as evidence. That's a pretty huge gap. It would be nice if it would clarify where the 400 AD info came from or provide more recent scientific evidence.

[Zakuska]

I don't doubt that there were some type of elephant like creature among the Jaredites as the Book of Mormon stated, but I do agree that this article is a little confusing. It says that this creature may have lived as recently as 400 AD, but doesn't offer any type of documentation of why that may be. It only uses a find of about 11,000 bc as evidence. That's a pretty huge gap. It would be nice if it would clarify where the 400 AD info came from or provide more recent scientific evidence.

The Palmer find is where the 400ce date comes from.

(1) Palmer, D., ed. (1999). The Marshall Illustrated Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs and Prehistoric Animals. London: Marshall Editions. pp.239–242. ISBN 1-84028-152-9, and

1999 is only 9 years ago. How much closer to our time can you get?

[katherine the great]

The Palmer find is where the 400ce date comes from.

(1) Palmer, D., ed. (1999). The Marshall Illustrated Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs and Prehistoric Animals. London: Marshall Editions. pp.239â??242. ISBN 1-84028-152-9, and

1999 is only 9 years ago. How much closer to our time can you get?

What exactly is the Palmer find?

[Zakuska]

Im not sure its listed in the book above... I've linked on Amazon. I can't find an online version of the book.

[katherine the great]

Im not sure its listed in the book above... I've linked on Amazon. I can't find an online version of the book.

I'm just really skeptical of this type of claim where there is no quotation or link to a study that supports it and the only evidence that IS cited is thousands of years earlier.

[Zakuska]

I understand. However... this time they can't blame us becuase its a 1999 study that apparently makes the claim. We arn't relying on outdated claims from the 60's

Wikipedia isn't the only place that is siting this either. Theres lots of hits on it from various museums and collections around the world.

Does anyone have access to this book?

[Notquitewetyet]

I don't doubt that there were some type of elephant like creature among the Jaredites as the Book of Mormon stated, but I do agree that this article is a little confusing. It says that this creature may have lived as recently as 400 AD, but doesn't offer any type of documentation of why that may be. It only uses a find of about 11,000 bc as evidence. That's a pretty huge gap. It would be nice if it would clarify where the 400 AD info came from or provide more recent scientific evidence.

Stable Isotope Ecology of a Late Miocene Population of Gomphotherium productus (Mammalia, Proboscidea) from Port of Entry Pit, Oklahoma, USA

David L. Fox and Daniel C. Fisher

PALAIOS, Vol. 16, No. 3 (Jun., 2001), pp. 279-293

This paper talks about a find from the Late Miocene in North America. 15-5 mya. Way too early. But with my resources, I can find precious little other than that to give a solid date to the extinction of these cute little dudes.

[livy111us]

This book is at the University of Utahs library:

http://hip.library.utah.edu/ipac20/ipac.js...ndex=ISBN#focus

Any U students here?

It's also at Weber

http://ipac.weber.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?term...ndex=ISBN#focus

[Zakuska]

Im just down the street. Do you have to be a U student to use the Library?

Hey... Im headed to lunch I'll stop by and see.

I'll be back in an hour.

[MormonMason]

Im just down the street. Do you have to be a U student to use the Library?

Not that I am aware. I have visited there from time to time on my way through the area. I have even had people there copy stuff for me and then pick it up later. It is not always a cheap way to go but if you are local you can copy stuff yourself. Someone I know in that area copied stuff and is not a U student. Of course, that was a couple years ago so I am not sure about now. I do not see that policies have changed, however. It's not like the Library at the Claremont Colleges--at least as it was a few years ago when I was denied access to books there without the purchase of a permit first.

[katherine the great]

Im just down the street. Do you have to be a U student to use the Library?

Hey... Im headed to lunch I'll stop by and see.

I'll be back in an hour.

Go Zak! (Zaky is so resourceful!)

[consiglieri]

Go Zak! (Zaky is so resourceful!)

And cute, too!

[Marmonboy]

I saw on PBS a few years ago (so it must be true) that pygmy mammoths survived on Wrangell Island in the Arctic until 4000 BC. Not Mesoamerica, by a long shot, but not 11,000 BC either.

[katherine the great]

And cute, too!

Cheek pinchingly cute!