When Are We "required To Forgive All Men"?

[JDave]

But to focus the issue more narrowly, what I have trouble with is the interpretation of the D&C scripture that a victim commits a greater sin than the perpetrator if the victim does not forgive the perpetrator, even if the perpetrator does not ask for forgiveness.

Any thoughts on that limited issue?

Maybe assuming the role of God is one of the worst sins?

I don't think having ill feelings towards someone who abuse you is the greater sin. Nor does forgiveness equate to treating that person as if they never did anything wrong. For example, I may forgive someone but not allow them to babysit my kids because of what they did.

I think the greater sin lies in passing some sort of eternal judgement on others, as in : "I don't forgive you. You are worthy of eternal condemnation."

[Bruce Wayne]

Oh man...not another Paul Rey sock puppet...now it's Bruce Wayne? Anyone want to start a prediction thread on what he'll choose next?

Let's see. Hmm. Maybe... hmm, well, I guess we'll just see what we'll see. Won't we.

[Anijen]

Oh man...not another Paul Rey sock puppet...now it's Bruce Wayne? Anyone want to start a prediction thread on what he'll choose next?

Like a vanity plate perhaps;

sock puppet1

then

sock puppet2

then

well you get the picture...

your truly

Anjen ~ who has never changed his name or avatar.

[The Nehor]

Repentance means stopping the animosity and malice and the need for revenge. It does not mean pretending it didn't happen. If someone murders my sibling I will do all I can to turn them over to the law. I'm required to forgive but not to invite him over for dinner.

We are required to forgive not to trust or even to think that they're wonderful or even average people.

[Bruce Wayne]

Repentance means stopping the animosity and malice and the need for revenge. It does not mean pretending it didn't happen. If someone murders my sibling I will do all I can to turn them over to the law. I'm required to forgive but not to invite him over for dinner.

We are required to forgive not to trust or even to think that they're wonderful or even average people.

I think the problem is that some people have a distorted view of what it means to "forgive".

... and rather than using only myself as an example, or sharing only my own personal knowledge that I have received from God about that issue, I'll now choose to simply direct people to search the words of ALL of our Lord's prophets and apostles through which God is now speaking in these latter days.

... and, just so y'all know, I would like all of you to forgive me for that as well as for anything else for which I stand in need of forgiveness.

[Anijen]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on that too. If I don't (or can't) forgive the person who rapes and kills my daughter and that person does not repent, am I sinning more than him? According to the scripture, yes. That is hard to wrap my mind around.

I hear ya. That would be hard, heck it would be hard not to go vigilante on him. However perhaps its not for the sake of the sinner, but for our own capacity to have an opportunity for our love to grow. I love Moroni 7:48

[Tabitha]

Secondly, what would that "love" entail, when you did try to help those who you knew were doing something wrong, or stupid?

Once you thought someone was in the right frame of mind, so that they were trying to be in agreement with God's will, do you think you could then love someone enough to forgive them for all they were doing which was wrong while at the same time righteously telling them that they need to repent, or change their behavior to be more in conformance to God's will?

I'm not suggesting that we should simply say "You're wrong".

I'm suggesting that we try to teach people what is right, when we can see they are wrong, going into as much detail as you think would be necesssary to help someone understand what is right and why it is right, perhaps even contrasting that against that which they are doing which is wrong.

Simply saying "showing love" is a little vague, in my perception.

What do you think it means to "show love" to someone?

Do you think that could perhaps include talking about what it is that is right, as opposed to what is wrong?

The only thing I see which was wrong with your first attempt to try to "help" your friend was that you felt "anger" and directed that anger at your friend... if I have understood you correctly.

I seldom if ever have felt "anger" for someone while I was trying to help them, and at the same time I have had no problem knowing the difference between what is right (or intelligent) and what is wrong (or stupid) and feeling good about what I was sharing.

I think the problem is that people don't like to feel stupid even when what they are doing is stupid, and instead of directing their disapproval for feeling stupid at themselves and changing their own stupid behavior they then lash out at those who are trying to tell them the intelligent course of action.

:\

When I talk about showing love to someone, I think it means different things for different circumstances. I have several cousins who are inactive. Two of them got married this year, both of them lived with their fiancees before marriage. I don't think it would have been productive for me to tell them how they were living in sin. Instead, I flew across the country to attend both weddings at my expense. That is how I showed my love to them. Maybe ten or twenty or thirty years from now they will remember that I made the effort to go to their wedding and it will leave a good feeling with them- that will inspire them to see what the church can offer them after they have made efforts to find God in numerous other ways. Whereas if I simply condemn their actions that would create negative feelings that might never go away.

If my own children, however, were living in sin with their fiancees, I might be compelled to say something to them. Still, depending on the circumstance, it may not be productive to beat the guilt into them. My aunt and uncle were faced with this dilemma when their daughter announced she had joined the Episcipalian church, and she was baptizing their only grandchild in that church. If they wanted to see their only grandchild they needed to find a way to be on good terms with their daughter. It is a heartbreaking situation for them.

The fear we often have is that we will be found condoning that which is wrong. I admit it is not easy- I have been guilty of offending many people in my family for speaking up too loudly for what I thought was right. In most cases I have later realized that what I was really doing was creating contention. I am trying to learn, or beginning to learn, to listen to other's feelings and then speak tactfully in a way that they will listen. It's a learned skill, I'm still learning.

When I say that the Holy Spirit leads best to repentance, I suppose I should clarify. All have access to the light of Christ, and sometimes the Holy Spirit and Light of Christ are used interchangeably since they both have the function to bring us to Christ. I believe God is working with each individual to invite them and bring them to him. And I still don't think you can know what God's plan is for anyone- the scriptures give only vague indications of what the judgement and afterlife will be like. We also don't know what events God will cause to transpire in someone's life to bring them to him. We simply don't have the capacity to know anyone else's experience or heart.

[Bruce Wayne]

If I don't (or can't) forgive the person who rapes and kills my daughter and that person does not repent, am I sinning more than him? According to the scripture, yes. That is hard to wrap my mind around.

God has told us to forgive all others, so if you don't forgive someone you are doing something God has not told you to do.... just like anyone else who does something God has not told them to do.

Your sin isn't necessarily the same kind of sin someone else has committed and not repented from, but if someone "rapes someone else" and doesn't repent of that sin (of not raping), and you "don't forgive someone else" and don't repent from that sin (of not forgiving), it's still a sin, in principle.

You're either doing something God has told you to do, or you're not doing something God has told you to do, so unless you repent and do what you should do, according to God, you're going to be lacking when it comes to becoming as perfect as God is.

[emeliza]

Just let it go, Will. Let it go. It's not worth the angst you are holding inside of you.

Who is Will?

[emeliza]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on that too. If I don't (or can't) forgive the person who rapes and kills my daughter and that person does not repent, am I sinning more than him? According to the scripture, yes. That is hard to wrap my mind around.

Maybe it is the greater sin because we are continuing to relive what happened. So basically we are not only hating or disliking the original sinner and causing ourselves angst and possibly imagining ways to make this person suffer, but we are also reliving and rethinking of the terrible deed the original sinner did the whole time. We are hurting ourselves and possibly the victim when we can't let go.

Yeah, far fetched but it was all I could think of.

[consiglieri]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on that too. If I don't (or can't) forgive the person who rapes and kills my daughter and that person does not repent, am I sinning more than him? According to the scripture, yes. That is hard to wrap my mind around.

Thank you for that response, KTG.

I agree with you that it is hard to wrap one's mind around, and I think the reason is because it is false doctrine.

Of course, I could be wrong about that.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

You're either doing something God has told you to do, or you're not doing something God has told you to do, so unless you repent and do what you should do, according to God, you're going to be lacking when it comes to becoming as perfect as God is.

Leaving aside the cloying inanity of your post, the point is that the common interpretation of the scripture at issue is that the one who does not forgive the rapist has committed a sin greater than the original rape.

And while we are at it, may I ask another question of the board in general?

"Isn't becoming perfect as our Father in Heaven tough enough without having to become more perfect than he is?"

Which is what I have to conclude if we think that God tells us we have to forgive even the people he is not willing to.

Just a thought.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Tsuzuki]

Their repentance has everything to with them, and nothing to do with you. Likewise, your forgiveness has everything to do with you, and nothing to do with them. Offenses and grudges are just two kinds of baggage preventing a person from reaching perfection. Of course, this isn't to say that you should trust an unrepentant thief with your car keys. That's a separate issue.

As a side note, if you've sinned against yourself, repentance and forgiveness are often present in the same action.

[thesometimesaint]

Tsuzuki:

Agreed.

[zerinus]

A famous passage in the Doctrine and Covenants has God declaring that he will forgive whom he will, but of us it is required to forgive all men.

This is commonly taught to mean that we are required to forgive everybody, regardless of whether they ask for forgiveness.

I respectfully disagree.

I believe that once a person asks for forgiveness, we are required to forgive them, but not until.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

D&C 98

:

39 And again, verily I say unto you, if after thine enemy has come upon thee the first time, he repent and come unto thee praying thy forgiveness, thou shalt forgive him, and shalt hold it no more as a testimony against thine enemyâ??

40 And so on unto the second and third time; and as oft as thine enemy repenteth of the trespass wherewith he has trespassed against thee, thou shalt forgive him, until seventy times seven.

41 And if he trespass against thee and repent not the first time, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

42 And if he trespass against thee the second time, and repent not, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.

43 And if he trespass against thee the third time, and repent not, thou shalt also forgive him.

44 But if he trespass against thee the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him, but shalt bring these testimonies before the Lord; and they shall not be blotted out until he repent and reward thee four-fold in all things wherewith he has trespassed against thee.

45 And if he do this, thou shalt forgive him with all thine heart; and if he do not this, I, the Lord, will avenge thee of thine enemy an hundred-fold;

46 And upon his children, and upon his children's children of all them that hate me, unto the third and fourth generation.

47 But if the children shall repent, or the children's children, and turn to the Lord their God, with all their hearts and with all their might, mind, and strength, and restore four-fold for all their trespasses wherewith they have trespassed, or wherewith their fathers have trespassed, or their fathers' fathers, then thine indignation shall be turned away;

48 And vengeance shall no more come upon them, saith the Lord thy God, and their trespasses shall never be brought any more as a testimony before the Lord against them. Amen.

Also, forgiving your enemy does not mean that you should put yourself at his disposal to do you harm, if that is his intent. One is allowed to defend oneself (and other innocent victims) against unlawful assult. But it should not be done out of hatefulness or revenge, but simply to protect oneself (or others) from obvious harm.

zerinus

[zerinus]

And while we are at it, may I ask another question of the board in general?

"Isn't becoming perfect as our Father in Heaven tough enough without having to become more perfect than he is?"

Which is what I have to conclude if we think that God tells us we have to forgive even the people he is not willing to.

Just a thought.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

God's decision to forgive or not forgive others is not an act of vengefulness based on harm that we have done to Him. God acts as a judge. A judge's decision to forgive someone or not forgive someone is not a reflection of personal vengefulness that the judge feels for what the culprit has done to him. His actions do not have a selfish motive. He is simply exercising his duty as a judge to dispense justice to the evildoer. God is in that position relative to us. He as a judge reserves the right to decide whom to punish and whom to absolve from punishment based on the principles of justice that He has determined, as the following scriptures demonstrate:

Romans 12

:

19 Dearly beloved,

avenge not yourselves,

but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written,

Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord

.

Mormon 3

:

15

Vengeance is mine, and I will repay;

and because this people repented not after I had delivered them, behold, they shall be cut off from the face of the earth.

Mormon 8

:

20 Behold what the scripture saysâ??man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for

judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay

.

zerinus

[zerinus]

Thank you for that response, KTG.

I agree with you that it is hard to wrap one's mind around, and I think the reason is because it is false doctrine.

You like living dangerously, I can see!

zerinus

[consiglieri]

You like living dangerously, I can see!

zerinus

I am dangerous!

All the Best!

--Con-Cruise-lieri

[alter idem]

And while we are at it, may I ask another question of the board in general?

"Isn't becoming perfect as our Father in Heaven tough enough without having to become more perfect than he is?"

Which is what I have to conclude if we think that God tells us we have to forgive even the people he is not willing to.

Just a thought.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

And I see your point completely. I said this on the other thread;

Yes, God says there is "no forgiveness" for some, and he tells us he will forgive whom he will forgive, but does this bring us to the conclusion that God demands a standard for us that he refuses to meet himself?

This seems to be what you are suggesting. If we interpret scripture to mean that God chooses to "withhold" forgiveness then he is demanding that we live up to a standard he refuses to.

I believe the problem is in our interpretation of his "forgiveness". I believe in this scripture you cite, he is talking about the benefit or effects of forgiveness which are withheld from those who choose not to repent. God has decreed he will only offer the benefit of forgiveness (salvation) to those who repent. But that doesn't mean he hasn't "forgiven" us before we even ask for it. He just can't give us the benefit of that forgiveness, until we repent.

So, the way I see it, God lives the same standard that he asks us to live. Otherwise he'd be less perfect than he's asking us to be--and that isn't logical and it doesn't fit what we know of how Christ was, who told us that when we see the things he does, we see the Father.

And since I believe he holds himself to this same standard, when he tells us that we must forgive everyone--whether or not they repent, we can assume that he too, "forgives" all his children, whether or not they repent. But, there's a restriction that he is bound to. He can't allow his children to enjoy the benefit or effects of his forgiveness in the form of salvation, unless they repent.