"...in My Heart It Becomes Like A Burning Fire..."

[Sargon]

8For each time I speak, I cry aloud;

I proclaim violence and destruction,

Because for me the word of the LORD has resulted

In reproach and derision all day long.

9But if I say, â??I will not remember Him

Or speak anymore in His name,â?

Then in my heart it becomes like a burning fire

Shut up in my bones;

And I am weary of holding it in,

And I cannot endure it.

Jeremiah describes the effect of the things that he learns from the Lord as â??burning fireâ? in his heart. How can critics maintain that Jeremiah views the heart as an untrustworthy receptacle of divine messages?

Some critics of LDS methodology suggests that in this passage Jeremiah is merely describing the zeal and passion he has for preaching the word of God. In this interpretation, the â??burning fireâ? in Jeremiahâ??s heart is not an indication of truth from God, but is an emotional desire to teach Godâ??s word. That begs the question as to where such a feeling originated; did it originate from God or from Jeremiah? One can be assured that it is from God, for that is how Jeremiah understands it. Jeremiah directly attributes the â??burning fireâ? in his heart to the fact that the word of the Lord was shut up in his bones. Would that feeling have existed had it not been the true word of the Lord? That is doubtful, and Jeremiah doesnâ??t even consider the possibility.

After determining to no longer speak the words of truth, God, an exterior agent, encourages Jeremiah on by rekindling Jeremiahâ??s heart. Evangelical scholar A. R. Faussett agrees that the burning in Jeremiahâ??s heart was â??the divine afflatus or impulse to speak.â?2 Jeremiahâ??s burning in the bosom is similar to, if not precisely what, LDS claim to experience.

I'm considering publishing this commentary on FAIRwiki, but I'm looking for ways to strengthen this argument. Please let me know if you see how it might be strengthened, or where it is incorrect.

Thanks!

James

[Sargon]

Here is some commentary from John Calvin:

We hence see how God restrained his servant, lest he should fall headlong, or succumb under his temptation; for he would have been suddenly drawn in as it were into a deep gulf, had he not been preserved by God. Therefore, whenever temptations of this kind present themselves to us, let us pray God to restrain and to support us; or if we have already fallen, let us pray him to raise us up and to strengthen us by his Spirit.

But the way is shewn by which God aided his servant: The word of God became as a burning fire in his heart; and it was also closed up in his bones, so that he was led by an ardent zeal, and could not be himself without going onward in the course of his office. He concludes by saying, that he was wearied, or could hardly bear himself, with forbearing; as though he had said, that it was not in his power either to abstain from teaching or to do what God commanded; for a burning ardor forced him to go on; and yet he had no doubt in his view those despisers with whom he had to do.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom19.iii.x.html

[Heartleap]

Jeremiah describes the effect of the things that he learns from the Lord as â??burning fireâ? in his heart. How can critics maintain that Jeremiah views the heart as an untrustworthy receptacle of divine messages?

Some critics of LDS methodology suggests that in this passage Jeremiah is merely describing the zeal and passion he has for preaching the word of God. In this interpretation, the â??burning fireâ? in Jeremiahâ??s heart is not an indication of truth from God, but is an emotional desire to teach Godâ??s word. That begs the question as to where such a feeling originated; did it originate from God or from Jeremiah? One can be assured that it is from God, for that is how Jeremiah understands it. Jeremiah directly attributes the â??burning fireâ? in his heart to the fact that the word of the Lord was shut up in his bones. Would that feeling have existed had it not been the true word of the Lord? That is doubtful, and Jeremiah doesnâ??t even consider the possibility.

After determining to no longer speak the words of truth, God, an exterior agent, encourages Jeremiah on by rekindling Jeremiahâ??s heart. Evangelical scholar A. R. Faussett agrees that the burning in Jeremiahâ??s heart was â??the divine afflatus or impulse to speak.â?2 Jeremiahâ??s burning in the bosom is similar to, if not precisely what, LDS claim to experience.

I'm considering publishing this commentary on FAIRwiki, but I'm looking for ways to strengthen this argument. Please let me know if you see how it might be strengthened, or where it is incorrect.

Thanks!

James

I think that Christians mean well in telling you not to trust the Human heart because a Human heart is unprotected from the lies of this world. I can love someone with all my heart and be sincere but I may not know that they are not showing me there true colors and in truth that person is lying and deceiving me for his gain. It does not mean my Heart was evil it means I trusted my Heart and that person let me down. When Jesus enters the new believer they are born again, they are made new and yes they are loved and love comes from the heart. So the question is how do you trust your heart when it wants to believe the best, but the best you heard or read could be a lie?

The Secret is knowing that Christ is in the believer giving them a new heart, his heart. If the Heart message is coming from you it is at risk of being false. If the living God is pulsing threw your veins, if you pass this test, that you trust Jesus alone to save you, he will not put you to shame. You may tread a lot of ground going in circles until you figure out how to listen to God and not yourself. But truth will stand on the day of judgement. I have confidence because of Jesus, that the Father will welcome me with open arms. I have confidence that if I put my confidence in my human heart I run a great risk of disappointment, because of so many well sounding lies that wait in bait for me. So this I do, I put no religion between God and I, I come to him one on one and he has not let me down in this ever.

Heartleap...

[Sevenbak]

Jeremiah describes the effect of the things that he learns from the Lord as â??burning fireâ? in his heart. How can critics maintain that Jeremiah views the heart as an untrustworthy receptacle of divine messages?

Some critics of LDS methodology suggests that in this passage Jeremiah is merely describing the zeal and passion he has for preaching the word of God. In this interpretation, the â??burning fireâ? in Jeremiahâ??s heart is not an indication of truth from God, but is an emotional desire to teach Godâ??s word. That begs the question as to where such a feeling originated; did it originate from God or from Jeremiah? One can be assured that it is from God, for that is how Jeremiah understands it. Jeremiah directly attributes the â??burning fireâ? in his heart to the fact that the word of the Lord was shut up in his bones. Would that feeling have existed had it not been the true word of the Lord? That is doubtful, and Jeremiah doesnâ??t even consider the possibility.

After determining to no longer speak the words of truth, God, an exterior agent, encourages Jeremiah on by rekindling Jeremiahâ??s heart. Evangelical scholar A. R. Faussett agrees that the burning in Jeremiahâ??s heart was â??the divine afflatus or impulse to speak.â?2 Jeremiahâ??s burning in the bosom is similar to, if not precisely what, LDS claim to experience.

I'm considering publishing this commentary on FAIRwiki, but I'm looking for ways to strengthen this argument. Please let me know if you see how it might be strengthened, or where it is incorrect.

Thanks!

James

I love this reference when speaking of the spirit testifying to us in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 3:3

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

[jadams_4242]

Jeremiah describes the effect of the things that he learns from the Lord as â??burning fireâ? in his heart. How can critics maintain that Jeremiah views the heart as an untrustworthy receptacle of divine messages?

Some critics of LDS methodology suggests that in this passage Jeremiah is merely describing the zeal and passion he has for preaching the word of God. In this interpretation, the â??burning fireâ? in Jeremiahâ??s heart is not an indication of truth from God, but is an emotional desire to teach Godâ??s word. That begs the question as to where such a feeling originated; did it originate from God or from Jeremiah? One can be assured that it is from God, for that is how Jeremiah understands it. Jeremiah directly attributes the â??burning fireâ? in his heart to the fact that the word of the Lord was shut up in his bones. Would that feeling have existed had it not been the true word of the Lord? That is doubtful, and Jeremiah doesnâ??t even consider the possibility.

After determining to no longer speak the words of truth, God, an exterior agent, encourages Jeremiah on by rekindling Jeremiahâ??s heart. Evangelical scholar A. R. Faussett agrees that the burning in Jeremiahâ??s heart was â??the divine afflatus or impulse to speak.â?2 Jeremiahâ??s burning in the bosom is similar to, if not precisely what, LDS claim to experience.

I'm considering publishing this commentary on FAIRwiki, but I'm looking for ways to strengthen this argument. Please let me know if you see how it might be strengthened, or where it is incorrect.

Thanks!

James

Well i know it has been stated many millions of times, {burning in the bosom}. Yet i think its only mortal mans basic manner of how to describe something that cannot be described. personally my confirmations have been Yes one of a burning, but also one of something more beautifull than any description of words could possibly justify. I beleive very strongly that when we declare a personal confirmation; it should be stated as truely felt as possible, not left to the oft quoted burning issue; I;E... Sevearal times in the temple i have been to a place that is so beautifull, filled with all knowledge so understandable nothing needs to be said. Everything is shared, yet nothing needs be spoken, love is commanding, peace and comfort is beyond anything imagined; God is actually standing in this Holy room with us; it is so much more than a burning in the bosom; it is beautifull, it is wonderfull, it is literally the most powerfull confirming and calming form of a perfect knowledge in all things. How can we communicate this confirmation to others whom are not comprehending by only stateing a "burning in the bosom"? Now I need to clarify that the bosom or heart burning is definately a very good basic statement of feeling, yet it is only a start. There is sssoooo much more.

[Zakuska]

Don't forget the 39th Pslam

Psalms 39

1 I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue: I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me.

2 I was dumb with silence, I held my peace, even from good; and my sorrow was stirred.

3 My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: then spake I with my tongue,

4 Lord, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is; that I may know how frail I am.

5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

6 Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them.

7 And now, Lord, what wait I for? my hope is in thee.

8 Deliver me from all my transgressions: make me not the reproach of the foolish.

9 I was dumb, I opened not my mouth; because thou didst it.

10 Remove thy stroke away from me: I am consumed by the blow of thine hand.

11 When thou with rebukes dost correct man for iniquity, thou makest his beauty to consume away like a moth: surely every man is vanity. Selah.

12 Hear my prayer, O Lord, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.

13 O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more.

[Sargon]

Thank you for your comments, and especially for the various related passages you have brought up. By all means, keep them coming.

But, does anyone have any suggestions about how to best interpret this passage as it stands alone?

[shalamabobbi]

This line of logic testifies to the lack of the Holy Ghost to enlighten someone who has not yet accepted the gospel. That the heart can be corrupt is apparent but it can also be pure as in..

Psalms 24:3,4 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands and a pure heart..

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

So if someone has a corrupt heart, God doesn't answer his prayers.. hence no burning of the heart.

And if someone has a pure heart, God answers his prayers.. hence the burning in the heart.

So if there is a burning in the heart, it came from God..

[Heartleap]

Well i know it has been stated many millions of times, {burning in the bosom}. Yet i think its only mortal mans basic manner of how to describe something that cannot be described. personally my confirmations have been Yes one of a burning, but also one of something more beautifull than any description of words could possibly justify. I beleive very strongly that when we declare a personal confirmation; it should be stated as truely felt as possible, not left to the oft quoted burning issue; I;E... Sevearal times in the temple i have been to a place that is so beautifull, filled with all knowledge so understandable nothing needs to be said. Everything is shared, yet nothing needs be spoken, love is commanding, peace and comfort is beyond anything imagined; God is actually standing in this Holy room with us; it is so much more than a burning in the bosom; it is beautifull, it is wonderfull, it is literally the most powerfull confirming and calming form of a perfect knowledge in all things. How can we communicate this confirmation to others whom are not comprehending by only stateing a "burning in the bosom"? Now I need to clarify that the bosom or heart burning is definately a very good basic statement of feeling, yet it is only a start. There is sssoooo much more.

This is how it is when I worship God. He takes me to wonderful indescribable places. He fills me with his love and I am in total awe of where he takes me. Yet I don't have to go to a LDS Temple. He has brought me to rooms in his Kingdom and shown me great wonders. He has given me spiritual gifts that go beyond describing or comprehension. I have access to God standing next to me in my bedroom and where ever I go. I have seen my gaurdian angel and feel the presence of other angels of God while I worship him. I am surprised how tangible they are. It is beautiful and it is wonderful and it is real. I am not sure why you give "perfect knowledge" the credit God deserves? I have visions of and from,God, I am given prophetic words, His authority lives in me so strongly that I have seen miracles unfold before my eyes. Maybe what you are trying to describe is Gods pure love for you. When you go to the temple you are focusing on God. When I go to worship I am focusing on God. When we turn from ourselves and focus on him he is able to show us wonderful things. There is one God over all. So how do you explain why God would bless an unworthy soul as mine? I believe it is because Jesus makes me worthy of Gods full on love. Why would I believe God would shower his love on you? Because I know that God loves you more than I can even imagine. I am a Mormon apostate, why would God bless me so richly?

Heartleap...

[Heartleap]

This line of logic testifies to the lack of the Holy Ghost to enlighten someone who has not yet accepted the gospel. That the heart can be corrupt is apparent but it can also be pure as in..

Psalms 24:3,4 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands and a pure heart..

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

So if someone has a corrupt heart, God doesn't answer his prayers.. hence no burning of the heart.

And if someone has a pure heart, God answers his prayers.. hence the burning in the heart.

So if there is a burning in the heart, it came from God..

It is because of Jesus that anyone could stand before the Father with clean Hands and a Pure Heart. God does not have to answer to those who do not beong to him, they are pretty much running on their own strength. All those who are captured by God strive to do his will and yes he does answer our prayers and makes all things come together for our good. A corrupt heart can be repaired God when it cries out for him. Your test makes no sense, All people are corrupt before they are changed by God. Your references speak nothing of a burning of the heart.

Heartleap...

[shalamabobbi]

No, my answers speak to prayer and since when we pray if we get that burning I am stating it came from God..

As far as how we are 'captured' by God the bible is pretty explicit about that as well..

Romans 10:12-15 For there is no difference between the Jews and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

Then follows the famous scripture from Isaiah, how beautiful upon the mountains, etc. You remember Abinadi? And his explanation of that verse to the priests of king Noah?

Here is more about priesthood authority and being 'sent', and how God even when He speaks directly from the heavens to an individual, still recognizes that priesthood authority and sends them to recieve further direction from them etc..

Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 10:1, 7, 8, 14, 15, And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

..as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils:..

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgement, than for that city.

Matt 10:16, 40 Behold I send you forth..

He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you..

John 20:21-23..as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Acts 1:20-26..must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his ressurection.

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts9:6 ..Lord, what will thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Acts 10:1-6 ..Cornelius a devout man..which gave much alms..and prayed alway. he saw an angel of God. And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Acts 14:22,23 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Acts 15:2,6 ..should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter,

Acts 19:13-17 Then certain of the Jews took upon them(selves) to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth..And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the evil spirit leaped on them.. And the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

So to be 'captured' by God is our choice when we hear the gospel presented by an authorized servant of Christ, somebody sent by Him.

It cannot occur by reading the bible or receiving it from someone else who has simply read the bible..

It cannot occur by praying until the heavens are rent and God speaks directly to you..this is what happened to Paul/Saul. Yet after he beheld the resurrected Lord he was directed to Ananias, someone with prior authority, to receive further direction and be baptized etc. He preached Jesus immediately but wasn't called and sent until later by the apostles on his mission.

God's house is a house of order..

[jkfrost]

The scripture that is often brought up is Jeremiah 17 only they leave out the last part of it:

Jeremiah talks about the good and bad things the heart of man can do.

He says that we are to be judged according to the fruit of our doings.

Cursed be the man that trusteth in man...whose heart departeth from the LORD

Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man

according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah 17:5-10

5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man,

and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when

good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness,

in a salt land and not inhabited.

7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out

her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh,

but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought,

neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:

who can know it?

( I'll tell you who can know it - the Lord can ) :

10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man

according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

###

...for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. 1 Sam 16:7

[Sargon]

Thank you JKfrost. I wrote about that particular passage here:

http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2008/05/...f-jeremiah-179/

[Deborah]

This is how it is when I worship God. He takes me to wonderful indescribable places. He fills me with his love and I am in total awe of where he takes me. Yet I don't have to go to a LDS Temple.

Why is it you think LDS have to go to the temple to experience the things of the spirit or have access to God as you describe? You misunderstand the purpose of temples. Yes, one can get close to God in the temple, but it doesn't necessarily follow that one can't experience the spiritual gifts outside the temple; most of my marvelous experiences have been in day to day events. The primary purpose of the temple is for instruction and labor for both the living and the dead.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I am a Mormon apostate, why would God bless me so richly?

Heartleap...

I believe God will bless you to the extent he can and to the extent you allow, regardless.

[jkfrost]

Thank you JKfrost. I wrote about that particular passage here:

http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2008/05/...f-jeremiah-179/

Thanks for sharing this it is Very well done -

People miss what the whole passage is saying because they repeat what another has said about it

or do not look deep enough into the passage.

I will start a new topic on a different passage - would like to know your thoughts on it. (2Cr 5: