24 replies to this topic

[Sargon]

Most critics of the Book of Mormon believe that Joseph (or the mysterious group of contemporaries who never revealed themselves) were inspired by their native surroundings in their production of the Book of Mormon. In fact, in recent years a map of BoM lands placed in a Great Lakes setting has gained considerable popularity with anti-mormon critics. A popular theory is that Joseph was inspired by tales of North American moundbuilders as imagined the characters and storylines in the BoM.

John Sorenson points out a small detail, among much more that could be said, that demonstrates that the author of the Book of Mormon was not assuming the environmental norms of the northeastern United States.

Quote

And is it reasonable for a man living in upper New York State who is supposedly drawing upon his own experience of the physical environment to produce a book that fails to mention "cold," "snow," or "ice" in the climate of the " promised land," or for him to write of oppressive heat at New Year's (see Alma 51:33 and 52:1)?

This can be read here, in footnote #3 : http://farms.byu.edu...b...&chapid=196

Here are the relevant verses:

Quote

Alma 51
33 And it came to pass that when the night had come, Teancum and his servant stole forth and went out by night, and went into the camp of Amalickiah; and behold, sleep had overpowered them because of their much fatigue, which was caused by the labors and heat of the day.
34 And it came to pass that Teancum stole privily into the tent of the king, and put a javelin to his heart; and he did cause the death of the king immediately that he did not awake his servants.

Alma 52
1 And now, it came to pass in the *twenty and sixth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, behold, when the Lamanites awoke on the first morning of the first month, behold, they found Amalickiah was dead in his own tent; and they also saw that Teancum was ready to give them battle on that day.

Was this a convenient slip of the pen? Did Joseph have in mind Mesoamerica all along? Did "the-ever-increasing-in-wisdom-and-knowledge-in-the-eyes-of-his-critics-esteemed-professor" Joseph fool us again?

OR

Is this a bulls-eye? Is this evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon? Is this evidence that the author of the Book of Mormon had in mind an geographical region in which the climate offered hot days around the New Year?

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

I think it is interesting, at least.

It is also interesting that the first day of the year was extremely important for kings in mesoamerica. In other words, it would have been an extremely bad omen to wake up and find your king murdered on that day.

[Sargon]

DispensatorMysteriorum, on Dec 2 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

I think it is interesting, at least.

It is also interesting that the first day of the year was extremely important for kings in mesoamerica. In other words, it would have been an extremely bad omen to wake up and find your king murdered on that day.

Awesome, where is a reference to that?

In other words, Teancum was playing spiritual warfare as well!

[Olavarria]

Sargon, on Dec 2 2008, 04:02 PM, said:

Awesome, where is a reference to that?

In other words, Teancum was playing spiritual warfare as well!

All Hail Michael Coe, the unwilling witness of mormonism, alamalagabalama!! Ohhhmm!!!

"Within the Haab, there were 18 named "months" of 20 days each, with a much-dreaded interval of 5 unlucky days added at the end. The Maya New year started with 1 Pop, the next day being 2 Pop, etc. The final day of the month, however, carried not the coefficient 20, but a sign indicating the "seating" of the month to follow, in line with the Maya philosophy that the influence of any particular span of time is felt before it actually begins and persists somewhat beyond its apparent termination."The Maya, 7th edition, pg 62.

Lets say that the first day of the lamanite year was called "cheechee". Amalikiah was killed on the last day of the previous month , which would have been the "seating of cheechee".  So if your king gets killed on the seating of cheechee, what does that tell you about the month of cheechee?  Answer: Run!!

Edited by Her Amun, 02 December 2008 - 03:28 PM.

[Olavarria]

Quote

Is this evidence that the author of the Book of Mormon had in mind an geographical region in which the climate offered hot days around the New Year?

Yep, which pretty much leaves out the Great Lakes.

[phaedrus ut]

IIRC there is almost no description of the weather or the climate in the textual narrative.


Phaedrus

[Sargon]

phaedrus ut, on Dec 2 2008, 04:32 PM, said:

IIRC there is almost no description of the weather or the climate in the textual narrative.
Phaedrus

Except for the exact things I mentioned above, right?

Edit: Sorenson points out the lack of cold or snow in the entire narrative, something which we would expect to read about in a narrative about the activities of New England cultures. Furthermore, the mention of intense heat at new year's day signals a climate quite opposite to the one Joseph was familiar with.

Edited by Sargon, 02 December 2008 - 03:38 PM.

[Zakuska]

"Heat of the day"  it was more likley fatigue from their New Years eve Party.  "Hang over"

[phaedrus ut]

Sargon, on Dec 2 2008, 04:34 PM, said:

Except for the exact things I mentioned above, right?

Edit: Sorenson points out the lack of cold or snow in the entire narrative, something which we would expect to read about in a narrative about the activities of New England cultures. Furthermore, the mention of intense heat at new year's day signals a climate quite opposite to the one Joseph was familiar with.

It depends what are you using for New Years Day?  The Julian calendar? The Jewish new year Rosh Hashanah? If they were observant Jews where is the observation of Leviticus 23:24?

What season was New Years day in 60ish BCE in the 260 day Mayan Calendar?


Phaedrus

Edited by phaedrus ut, 02 December 2008 - 03:57 PM.

[Nofear]

Sargon, on Dec 2 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

Is this a bulls-eye? Is this evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon? Is this evidence that the author of the Book of Mormon had in mind an geographical region in which the climate offered hot days around the New Year?

Off the top of my head, I can't recall the correlation between the Book of Mormon calendaring system and our contemporary Gregorian calendar. Do we have good reason to suppose that the first day of the first month lands in winter as opposed to the middle of summer? The long count calender, for example, starts with August 11 (long, long ago) according to one correlation scheme.

But, suppose Joseph did mean the for first day of the first month to be in the hot months of summer. Then, we'd claim this as the bulls-eye, as how could Joseph known the calendaring correlation?

[Sargon]

In order for this NOT to be a bulls-eye, one would have to demonstrate that Joseph consciously abandoned the Gregorian calendar he knew for another calendar.

As far as I know, that isn't any evidence that Joseph was even aware of other calendar systems, much less that his own was called the "Gregorian."

It doesn't matter what day on the calendar it was for the Maya. Every day is hot in central america.

[livy111us]

Randall Spackman has done the most comprehensive work on The Book of Mormon calendar, and concluded that the first of the year was in February http://farms.byu.edu...o...um=1&id=170

John Lund says in his book:

"In the Eastern Mesoamerica coastal region, the average temperature on April 1st is 88 degrees. The Book of Mormon reports that Amalickiah camped in tents, "on the beach by the seashore" (Alma 51:32). In the northern climates around Rochester New York, the average temprature for April 1st is 42 degrees with the evening minimum temperature at freezing. The heat of the day is a phrase that best applies to Mesoamerica for late March and early April..." One wouldn't wear loin clothes to battle in tempratures like this, then complain it was to hot. If it was in North America, they should be mentioning how cold it was.

More interesting points can be found in Alma 14:8-23 when Alma and Amulek had their clothes taken from them, bound with cords and suffered "many days". Alma 10:6 sets the date as the 4th day 7th month, or around the beginning of October, end of September (lunar calendar). They were delivered from the prison on the "twelfth day in the tenth month" (Alma 14:23). That is about 96 days in prison, and corresponds to around the first week in January. If the BOM happened in N. America, the temp that they would have to endure would be, for the first week of January, a high of 31 degrees, and a low of 19 degrees. They would have surely died from exposure. But in Mesoamerica, the lowest temp would be in the mid-sixties. It would be cold, but survivable.

Enos who lived between 544 bc and 421 bc described the Lamanites as "wandering about the wilderness with a short girdle about their loins and their heads shaven" (Enos 1:25)
Around 178 bc, Zeniff said of the Lamanites dress "And they had their heads shaven and they were naked; and they were girded with a leathern girdle about their loins" Mosiah 10:8
In 87 bc said  "the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins" Alma 3:4-5
74 bc "they were naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins, yea all were naked save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites" Alma 43:20

Alma 43:37 "nakedness was exposed"
Alma 44:18 "naked skins and their bare heads"
19 ad 3 Nephi 4:7 "lamb-skin about their loins"
The internal evidence in The Book of Mormon confirms that the Lamanites came to battle year round. Some of the wars lasted for six years and thye were not seasonal, but one continious struggle (Alma 51-62). As previously quoted, the naked and shorn Lamanites came to war in the sixth month (Sept, 3 Nephi 4:7) and the commencement of the year (April), and at the years end (March) (3 Nephi 4:1, 2:17, ALma 56:20). Teancums killing of Amalickiah was on the last day of the first month,March, and on the first day of the new moon near April 1st, they found Amalickiah dead in his own tent (Alma 51:33-37). Supplies are brought to the Stripling warriors of Helaman in the second month (May) (Alma 56:27). And these same groups of young soldiers were fighting in the seventh month (October) (Alma 56:42). Alma records a battle in the eleventh month (Feb. 10th) (Alma 49:1)
The sum of the matter is that the Lamanites came to battle and war dressed in only a loin cloth, and their heads were shaven. This tradition was perpetuated for centuries. They came to battle in Feb. March, April, May, Sept, and Oct. as specifically mentioned in the BOM, and some wars lasted for years. It is doubtful these battles took place in a climate not conducive to nakedness and loinclothes. Feb. in New York with loincloths is a stretch for the most avid adherent to the Canadian border believers. Year-round loincloths in Mesoamerica are a well established fact. When the explorer John Lloyd Stevens first arrived in Mesoamerica he made some preliminary observations: "The Indians were naked, except a small piece of cotton cloth around the loins, and crossing in front between the legs" It was November 1839.

[Sargon]

Awesome post livy!

[phaedrus ut]

Sargon, on Dec 2 2008, 05:15 PM, said:

In order for this NOT to be a bulls-eye, one would have to demonstrate that Joseph consciously abandoned the Gregorian calendar he knew for another calendar.
As far as I know, that isn't any evidence that Joseph was even aware of other calendar systems, much less that his own was called the "Gregorian."
It doesn't matter what day on the calendar it was for the Maya. Every day is hot in central america.

Ahh I see your point.  This is actually a good match and argument for those with a Mesoamerican preference.  Especially when considering a great lakes or hemispheric model.  


Phaedrus

[rick7475]

Native Americans of Eastern NA in the winter months lived in large birch wood longhouses and slept on furs. They also wore furs in the winters. Not skins: furs.

Not one mention of furs in the BOM, not even for armor, which you might suspect since Lamanites feared Nephite armor. Fur makes pretty good armor in the winter: ask a Norseman.

Also, the word cold is only seen once: 2 Ne 1:14 refering to a cold grave.

Snow is only mentioned once, in Nephi's dream when he was still in the old world 1 Ne 11:8.

[Anijen]

Quote

Sargon
Was this a convenient slip of the pen? Did Joseph have in mind Mesoamerica all along? Did "the-ever-increasing-in-wisdom-and-knowledge-in-the-eyes-of-his-critics-esteemed-professor" Joseph fool us again?

OR

Is this a bulls-eye? Is this evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon? Is this evidence that the author of the Book of Mormon had in mind an geographical region in which the climate offered hot days around the New Year?

Edited by Anijen, 02 December 2008 - 09:51 PM.

[consiglieri]

If Joseph Smith's early American culture permeated the Book of Mormon, especially in his recitation of Captain Moroni's struggle for liberty and so forth, where is anything comparable to the suffering in the ice and snow endured by General George Washington and his troops at Valley Forge?  

Where is anything resembling Washington's surprise attack on enemy forces stationed at Trenton, New Jersey by crossing the partially frozen Delaware River on Christmas Day of 1776?

Some of the most heroic and famous deeds of the American Revolution are enshrined in the snow and ice of the modern United States.

It is hard to imagine that Joseph Smith was not aware of these events, making me think that the omission of any reference to a cold climate, ice or snow in the Book of Mormon is even more remarkable.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Sargon]

livy111us, on Dec 2 2008, 05:22 PM, said:

Randall Spackman has done the most comprehensive work on The Book of Mormon calendar, and concluded that the first of the year was in February http://farms.byu.edu...o...um=1&id=170

John Lund says in his book:

"In the Eastern Mesoamerica coastal region, the average temperature on April 1st is 88 degrees. The Book of Mormon reports that Amalickiah camped in tents, "on the beach by the seashore" (Alma 51:32). In the northern climates around Rochester New York, the average temprature for April 1st is 42 degrees with the evening minimum temperature at freezing. The heat of the day is a phrase that best applies to Mesoamerica for late March and early April..." One wouldn't wear loin clothes to battle in tempratures like this, then complain it was to hot. If it was in North America, they should be mentioning how cold it was.

More interesting points can be found in Alma 14:8-23 when Alma and Amulek had their clothes taken from them, bound with cords and suffered "many days". Alma 10:6 sets the date as the 4th day 7th month, or around the beginning of October, end of September (lunar calendar). They were delivered from the prison on the "twelfth day in the tenth month" (Alma 14:23). That is about 96 days in prison, and corresponds to around the first week in January. If the BOM happened in N. America, the temp that they would have to endure would be, for the first week of January, a high of 31 degrees, and a low of 19 degrees. They would have surely died from exposure. But in Mesoamerica, the lowest temp would be in the mid-sixties. It would be cold, but survivable.

Enos who lived between 544 bc and 421 bc described the Lamanites as "wandering about the wilderness with a short girdle about their loins and their heads shaven" (Enos 1:25)
Around 178 bc, Zeniff said of the Lamanites dress "And they had their heads shaven and they were naked; and they were girded with a leathern girdle about their loins" Mosiah 10:8
In 87 bc said  "the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins" Alma 3:4-5
74 bc "they were naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins, yea all were naked save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites" Alma 43:20

Alma 43:37 "nakedness was exposed"
Alma 44:18 "naked skins and their bare heads"
19 ad 3 Nephi 4:7 "lamb-skin about their loins"
The internal evidence in The Book of Mormon confirms that the Lamanites came to battle year round. Some of the wars lasted for six years and thye were not seasonal, but one continious struggle (Alma 51-62). As previously quoted, the naked and shorn Lamanites came to war in the sixth month (Sept, 3 Nephi 4:7) and the commencement of the year (April), and at the years end (March) (3 Nephi 4:1, 2:17, ALma 56:20). Teancums killing of Amalickiah was on the last day of the first month,March, and on the first day of the new moon near April 1st, they found Amalickiah dead in his own tent (Alma 51:33-37). Supplies are brought to the Stripling warriors of Helaman in the second month (May) (Alma 56:27). And these same groups of young soldiers were fighting in the seventh month (October) (Alma 56:42). Alma records a battle in the eleventh month (Feb. 10th) (Alma 49:1)
The sum of the matter is that the Lamanites came to battle and war dressed in only a loin cloth, and their heads were shaven. This tradition was perpetuated for centuries. They came to battle in Feb. March, April, May, Sept, and Oct. as specifically mentioned in the BOM, and some wars lasted for years. It is doubtful these battles took place in a climate not conducive to nakedness and loinclothes. Feb. in New York with loincloths is a stretch for the most avid adherent to the Canadian border believers. Year-round loincloths in Mesoamerica are a well established fact. When the explorer John Lloyd Stevens first arrived in Mesoamerica he made some preliminary observations: "The Indians were naked, except a small piece of cotton cloth around the loins, and crossing in front between the legs" It was November 1839.

Is all of this information from Lund's book, or is some of it your independent research?

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Sargon,

I saw it on BYU tv. haha It was on the second Journey of Faith movie.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Sargon, on Dec 2 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

Except for the exact things I mentioned above, right?

Edit: Sorenson points out the lack of cold or snow in the entire narrative, something which we would expect to read about in a narrative about the activities of New England cultures. Furthermore, the mention of intense heat at new year's day signals a climate quite opposite to the one Joseph was familiar with.

Except when you put into mind certain things...which I can further confirm with observations I have made.

New Year's Day would not have been January 1st in the narrative, otherwise, Christ would have died on January 4th, given the story in 3 Nephi 8 when the diasaters around Christ's death happened on the first month, on the fourth day of the month.

Christ died at the Jewish Feast of Passover, celebrated by the first full moon after the spring equinox.  The Hebrew calendar before the exile had the passover month as the first month of the year (heb. Nisan), translating to late March to mid April.

I have been down in Mesoamerica, specifically Chiapas and Tabasco states, in April.  It is the most unpleasant time of the year, height of the dry season, and also when temperatures are at their peak (in Tabasco, in excess of 45 degrees centigrade, or 113 Fahrenheit, with the most oppresive humidity imaginable, unless you happen to live along the US gulf coast).  The rainy season usually tends to pick up in mid May and lasts through the end of October resulting in moderated temperatures of about 35 degrees centigrade.

The New Year which you guys are referring to, could very easily have been in late March or early April, when the climatic conditions regarding heat are at their worst in Mesoamerica.  Also of reference, the pre exilic Hebrew calendar that had Nisan, the month of Passover, as its first month.

The only time snow is mentioned in the Book of Mormon is when Nephi was referring to some clothes of angels, where he remarked that they were white is snow.  While uncommon, snow does fall in the hills around Jerusalem in winter time...Mount Hermon to the north is a functioning ski resort.

So to recap...I have serious doubts that the New year referred to here is in January, but more likely it was April, which would be an even more confirming the Book of Mormon record as having taken place in Mesoamerica.