I work out with a girl who said she has proof that the Government was pressuring the Church to change its policy regarding Blacks and the Priesthood or it would lose its tax exempt status. I asked for a source. She said her Dad knew it. LOL.
Anyway, does anyone have this proof, or am I correct in assuming this is typical anti Mormon clap trap with no hard evidence?
Big UP!
Lamanite
I believe it possible. I believe that God waited until people, blacks especially, but whites as well, stood up and demanded equality. I believe that the human rights movement played a role in the revelation occurring at that time. I believe that pressure from man is a variable in what God tells us. The perfect example is a king in Israel. Samuel told Israel God didn't want them to have a king, the people disagreed and pushed the issue, Israel got a king. Balaam is another example. Balaam was told by God don't go, I don't want you to, Balaam pressured God repeatedly asking, eventually Balaam went.
Proof is irrelevant, God said what He said, and it appears to have been a convenient, and opportune, time to have said it.
Does a poet create, originate, initiate the thing called a poem, or is his behavior merely the product of his genetic and environmental histories? B. F. Skinner (1904 - 1990)
For the LDS, our genetics and environmental histories started much earlier than conception, don't attack those of us that are Behaviorist's out of hand ;)
We choose the wrong path at the very start when we suppose that our goal is to change the "minds and hearts of men and women" rather than the world in which they live. ~ B. F. Skinner
I work out with a girl who said she has proof that the Government was pressuring the Church to change its policy regarding Blacks and the Priesthood or it would lose its tax exempt status. I asked for a source. She said her Dad knew it. LOL.
Anyway, does anyone have this proof, or am I correct in assuming this is typical anti Mormon clap trap with no hard evidence?
Big UP!
Lamanite
I have never heard of anything of this nature.
I do believe that this particular revelation does seem to be socially convenient, given the Civil Rights movement during that time frame.
I certainly don't believe LDS were the only ones who made some sort of response to these changes in society.
It was also somewhere around this time that the Southern Baptist Convention issued an apology for its support of slavery.
I don't think either decision was a bad one, and I think it could be said God could be found in both.
"Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the King, I tell you." - Mr. Beaver in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis
While it's easy to look at Official Declaration 2 from a US-centric viewpoint, we also shouldn't underestimate the influence of the missionary work in Brazil and other areas of the world with large populations of mixed (or indeterminate) heritage.
In spite of the world's arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God's prophets.
The Civil Rights movement was long over, 1960-1978. 18 years is quite a long time. But it probably was a combination of several things. Mostly that the church was preparing to move into south America and Africa. Many members of lamanite blood (Not cursed mind you) had already been baptized in central america. Can God use outside preassure to make his will known? Of course he can.... one need only read of the Babilonian Exile. Where God threw Israel to the wind and used servitude and exile to break his peoples pride. I am unaware of any preasure or threats of losing tax exempt status that influenced this decission.
Edited by Zakuska, 13 November 2008 - 06:46 PM.
"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” -- Martin Luther "Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!" -- Martin Luther
While it's easy to look at Official Declaration 2 from a US-centric viewpoint, we also shouldn't underestimate the influence of the missionary work in Brazil and other areas of the world with large populations of mixed (or indeterminate) heritage.
i remember hearing that president kimball did in fact begin his prayers because of the temple being built in brazil. many of the people in that area have black ancestry and it would have been very difficult.
there are times in history that we as members have forced something by our lack of faith. if the members do not accept something god has said we dont do it. of course we lose the blessing associated with it.
Elder Dallin Oaks, â??I find some wisdom in liberalism, some wisdom in conservatism, and much truth in intellectualism-but I find no salvation in any of them.â? â??Criticism,â? Ensign, Feb. 1987, 68
I work out with a girl who said she has proof that the Government was pressuring the Church to change its policy regarding Blacks and the Priesthood or it would lose its tax exempt status. I asked for a source. She said her Dad knew it. LOL.
Anyway, does anyone have this proof, or am I correct in assuming this is typical anti Mormon clap trap with no hard evidence?
Big UP!
Lamanite
My dad said the same thing. The proof is in the library of congress.
I work out with a girl who said she has proof that the Government was pressuring the Church to change its policy regarding Blacks and the Priesthood or it would lose its tax exempt status. I asked for a source. She said her Dad knew it. LOL.
Anyway, does anyone have this proof, or am I correct in assuming this is typical anti Mormon clap trap with no hard evidence?
It's just typical anti-Mormon claptrap with no evidence to support it. It's false.
As a geezer who was alive and quite aware during the years leading up to the revelation, I can say with certainty that the pressures on the Church were much, much lower in 1978 than they had been ten years earlier. Latter-day Saints, by and large, weren't expecting a change or even giving the issue a lot of attention; most of our critics assumed that we were irredeemable and were resigned to the status quo.
Incidentally, the current issue of BYU Studies has a superb and very important article, written by President Kimball's son Edward (a retired law professor), on the lead-up to the revelation and on the revelation itself. There is no need to invoke mythical government "pressures" to make the story make sense.
It's just typical anti-Mormon claptrap with no evidence to support it. It's false.
As a geezer who was alive and quite aware during the years leading up to the revelation, I can say with certainty that the pressures on the Church were much, much lower in 1978 than they had been ten years earlier. Latter-day Saints, by and large, weren't expecting a change or even giving the issue a lot of attention; most of our critics assumed that we were irredeemable and were resigned to the status quo.
Incidentally, the current issue of BYU Studies has a superb and very important article, written by President Kimball's son Edward (a retired law professor), on the lead-up to the revelation and on the revelation itself. There is no need to invoke mythical government "pressures" to make the story make sense.
Any way some of us poor college students can get a copy of the article you alluded to, Bro. Peterson? I'd enjoy reading it.
"Sooner or later, there comes a point in a man’s life when he’s gotta face some facts. And one fact I gotta face is that, whatever it is that women like, I ain’t got it. I chased after enough girls in my life. I went to enough dances. I got hurt enough. I don’t wanna get hurt no more." —Ernest Borgnine as Marty, the title character in the 1955 film. (RIP, Mr. Borgnine.)
Redefining excellence upwards, just to make it a challenge.
Contributor
9,845 posts
Posted 13 November 2008 - 08:26 PM
TAK, on Nov 13 2008, 05:11 PM, said:
I dont think that is the was the case. (I was on my mission when the change was announced..) If you really believe it had subsided - ask yourself what would be the climate today if the change had not happened... it would be nightmare.
Perhaps, but in 1978, the trend was down. Whatever happened later (and that hardly eliminates revelation and prophesy), the political environment was not as hostile as it had been earlier.
TAK said:
ttrib mentioned Stanford, but as I recall Wyoming and UTEP also threatened boycotts. Again today??
Today is not part of the question. As a matter of fact, the question was solely about governmental (tax) pressure. These others are side issues. They may have played into the whole scenario. But, as I recall, there was a reduction of that sort of pressure, too.
Standford, for instance, was backing down because their sports teams were jealous of the debate team that still was "playing" BYU. It was a budget issue for them, and having to travel further made it uneconomical for them. (As a Speech and Drama major, I was in on some of the flutters over this.) The football team, the basketball team, and others, all wanted on board, too.
TAK said:
I do not know of any pending Govt actions at the time. I do recall a interview w/ LeGrand Richard that they had difficulty figuring out who was black in South America for temple/priesthood ..
This is one of the interesting parts of this whole question.
We built the S?£o Paolo Temple before OD2. People try to make it sound as if the Brazilians built it, but they did not. They raised some of the costs, but it was the Saints in Utah and California who built that Temple (as all the others, too). Those who make this claim say it was internal pressure because of the Brazilians' money that caused the change.
Yet this claim is ridiculous. Why? Glad you asked.
The Brethren, as you said, knew the problems with the Priesthood ban. Why build a Temple that could not be used? The Lord told them to build that Temple, when He did, because He knew it would be needed there.
Lehi
The public school system: "Usually a twelve year sentence of mind control. Crushing creativity, smashing individualism, encouraging collectivism and compromise, destroying the exercise of intellectual inquiry, twisting it instead into meek subservience to authority".
— Walter Karp
The ban/curse was never taught as being a permanent condition, so I think it is rather silly to suggest that any other entity forced or pressured the Church into lifting the ban. I will say that I agree that the spreading of the gospel through missionary efforts outside of the US was a factor, since after, Brigham Young said it would be more than a century before:
Quote
When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. D&C 84:92 He that receiveth you not, go away from him alone by yourselves, and cleanse your feet even with water, pure water, whether in heat or in cold, and bear testimony of it unto your Father which is in heaven, and return not again unto that man. Ether 8:24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
Redefining excellence upwards, just to make it a challenge.
Contributor
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Posted 13 November 2008 - 09:19 PM
Mudcat, on Nov 13 2008, 05:54 PM, said:
It was also somewhere around this time that the Southern Baptist Convention issued an apology for its support of slavery.
Sorry, Jason, that apology was not forthcoming for yet another 17 years. It was 20 June 1995 that the SBC made the statement to which you refer. Re: Christian Century, 5 July 1995.
Lehi
Edited by LeSellers, 13 November 2008 - 09:20 PM.
The public school system: "Usually a twelve year sentence of mind control. Crushing creativity, smashing individualism, encouraging collectivism and compromise, destroying the exercise of intellectual inquiry, twisting it instead into meek subservience to authority".
— Walter Karp
Has anyone ever said anything about the content of the revelation? Or in other words, have there been any second- or third-hand accounts of what actually happened?
Here are some quotes, the ones everyone has read.
Elder Bruce R. McConkie: "It was during this prayer that the revelation came. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon us all; we felt something akin to what happened on the day of Pentecost and at the Kirtland Temple. From the midst of eternity, the voice of God, conveyed by the power of the Spirit, spoke to his prophet. The message was that the time had now come to offer the fullness of the everlasting gospel, including celestial marriage, and the priesthood, and the blessings of the temple, to all men, without reference to race or color, solely on the basis of personal worthiness. And we all heard the same voice, received the same message, and became personal witnesses that the word received was the mind and will and voice of the Lord."
And: "President Kimball's prayer was answered and our prayers were answered. He heard the voice and we heard the same voice. All doubt and uncertainty fled. He knew the answer and we knew the answer. And we are all living witnesses of the truthfulness of the word so graciously sent from heaven."
And: "In the days that followed the receipt of the new revelation, President Kimball and President Ezra Taft Benson, the senior and most spiritually experienced ones among us, both said, expressing the feelings of us all, that neither of them had ever experienced anything of such spiritual magnitude and power as was poured out upon the Presidency and the Twelve that day in the upper room in the house of the Lord. And of it I say: I was there; I heard the voice; and the Lord be praised that it has come to pass in our day."
President Gordon B. Hinckley: "Not one of us who was present on that occasion was ever quite the same after that. Nor has the Church been quite the same. All of us knew that the time had come for a change and that the decision had come from the heavens. The answer was clear. There was perfect unity among us in our experience and in our understanding."
Elder LeGrand Richards: (When asked if details of the revelation would be included or just a statement): "We discussed it in our meeting. What else should we say besides that announcement? And we decided that was sufficient; that no more needed to be said."
"...for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children
of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish
the thing which he commandeth them." --Nephi 3:7
"Never give an order that can't be obeyed." --Douglas MacArthur
I work out with a girl who said she has proof that the Government was pressuring the Church to change its policy regarding Blacks and the Priesthood or it would lose its tax exempt status. I asked for a source. She said her Dad knew it. LOL.
Anyway, does anyone have this proof, or am I correct in assuming this is typical anti Mormon clap trap with no hard evidence?
Big UP!
Lamanite
Nope. Didn't happen. In fact, even the newspapers were surprised by the announcement and by the lateness of the hour when it came. Much of the pressure had been dying down by that time with a few flukes here and there.
It's just typical anti-Mormon claptrap with no evidence to support it. It's false.
As a geezer who was alive and quite aware during the years leading up to the revelation, I can say with certainty that the pressures on the Church were much, much lower in 1978 than they had been ten years earlier. Latter-day Saints, by and large, weren't expecting a change or even giving the issue a lot of attention; most of our critics assumed that we were irredeemable and were resigned to the status quo.
Incidentally, the current issue of BYU Studies has a superb and very important article, written by President Kimball's son Edward (a retired law professor), on the lead-up to the revelation and on the revelation itself. There is no need to invoke mythical government "pressures" to make the story make sense.
Hey...I use the phrase "clap trap" too. We're brothers. Now, does Edward add anything in addition to what he already wrote in the bio of his Dad's Presidency?
Big UP!
Lamanite
"Tell that to Hitler's biographer."- Blair Hodges to Richard Bushman
www.fleetingfactoids.wordpress.com
Has anyone ever said anything about the content of the revelation? Or in other words, have there been any second- or third-hand accounts of what actually happened?
Here are some quotes, the ones everyone has read.
Elder Bruce R. McConkie: "It was during this prayer that the revelation came. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon us all; we felt something akin to what happened on the day of Pentecost and at the Kirtland Temple. From the midst of eternity, the voice of God, conveyed by the power of the Spirit, spoke to his prophet. The message was that the time had now come to offer the fullness of the everlasting gospel, including celestial marriage, and the priesthood, and the blessings of the temple, to all men, without reference to race or color, solely on the basis of personal worthiness. And we all heard the same voice, received the same message, and became personal witnesses that the word received was the mind and will and voice of the Lord."
And: "President Kimball's prayer was answered and our prayers were answered. He heard the voice and we heard the same voice. All doubt and uncertainty fled. He knew the answer and we knew the answer. And we are all living witnesses of the truthfulness of the word so graciously sent from heaven."
And: "In the days that followed the receipt of the new revelation, President Kimball and President Ezra Taft Benson, the senior and most spiritually experienced ones among us, both said, expressing the feelings of us all, that neither of them had ever experienced anything of such spiritual magnitude and power as was poured out upon the Presidency and the Twelve that day in the upper room in the house of the Lord. And of it I say: I was there; I heard the voice; and the Lord be praised that it has come to pass in our day."
President Gordon B. Hinckley: "Not one of us who was present on that occasion was ever quite the same after that. Nor has the Church been quite the same. All of us knew that the time had come for a change and that the decision had come from the heavens. The answer was clear. There was perfect unity among us in our experience and in our understanding."
Elder LeGrand Richards: (When asked if details of the revelation would be included or just a statement): "We discussed it in our meeting. What else should we say besides that announcement? And we decided that was sufficient; that no more needed to be said."
From Edward Kimball's bio "Lengthen your stride: The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball", we learn that Elder McConkie kind of got an "earful" for making it seem as if they heard an actual voice. If he did, it was not a shared experience and President Kimball counseled him on this matter.
Big UP
Lamanite
"Tell that to Hitler's biographer."- Blair Hodges to Richard Bushman
www.fleetingfactoids.wordpress.com
Now, does Edward add anything in addition to what he already wrote in the bio of his Dad's Presidency?
The BYU Studies article is a lengthier treatment of the subject than he was permitted by his publisher to include in the biography.
Even so, though, there is one curious omission from the sources he cites: He doesn't quote Leonard Arrington's Adventures of a Church Historian (University of Illinois Press), in which Professor Arrington, the former Historian of the Church, gives a very interesting account of the revelation, based in part on his own conversations with two apostles immediately after the event.
"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” -- Martin Luther "Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!" -- Martin Luther
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Lamanite, on Nov 13 2008, 04:56 PM, said:
If I didn't believe in miracles before, I certainly do, now. 
