45 replies to this topic

[kamenraider]

LifeOnaPlate, on Oct 1 2008, 07:17 PM, said:

If anyone is actually buying into kaman's speculations please let me know. Otherwise we need not waste time on such arguments.

Which speculations? You don't think that the fact that a man was 7/8 white could have been a factor in his being ordained to the priesthood during a time when scripture was published (Book of Abraham) that lent support to the idea of priesthood denial based on Hamitic lineage -- a time when, some say, Joseph Smith directed that blacks not be ordained?

LifeOnaPlate, on Oct 1 2008, 07:13 PM, said:

kaman: why the heavy interest in polygamy and blacks and the priesthood?

Is this a thread about me?

Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to the topic being discussed?

You can pm me anytime with personal questions.

Edited by kamenraider, 01 October 2008 - 08:38 PM.

[Stanley]

Scott Gordon, on Sep 28 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

The information on the "one' exception is outdated and incorrect.

I do wish you would go over and read the timelines. It would help bring you up to date on some of the information. Elijah Abel was not the ONE exception. I understand that even this information is a bit outdated, and we now know there were others ordained in the 1830s. Several people were ordained under Joseph Smith, and at least one person of color under Brigham Young.

Here is a partial list

1836: In March, Elijah Abel, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1836: In December, Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Seventy.
1844: Walker Lewis, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1846: William McCary, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1900: Enoch Abel, the son of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1935: Elijah Abel, grandson of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1958: All black Melanesians (Fijians) are given the priesthood (blacks in the Philippines even earlier)

That is the problem with many of the discussions on blacks and the priesthood. Information is frequently quoted from the 1930's through 1960's during a time when lots of assertions were made but very little facts were actually researched.

You seem to focus on the exception to the basic rule of the church's 100+ policy of banning Blacks from the priesthood.  Have YOU done research and read some of the racist publications distributed within the LDS Church?  One, The Juvenile Instructor, comes to mind.  Although privately owned in 1868, it published racist material and is classified as "semi-official" according to Wiki.

Check the October 15th, 1868 issue in particular.

[calmoriah]

kamenraider, on Oct 1 2008, 09:37 PM, said:

the fact that a man was 7/8 white

CFR please that Abel was 7/8 white.

[Scott Gordon]

Members of the church in the 1800s were racist by today's standards. That is clear. But so was everybody else. But the scriptures say that the priesthood is to go to all men.I do get tired of people calling Mormons racist while ignoring other groups. We weren't the religion separating over the slavery issue. We weren't the ones baring children from going to schools or participating in lynchings year after year.There were exceptions to the ban. I happen to believe, from my research and from talking with other researchers that there was no ban at first.From everything I have read, the ban originated with Brigham Young. Yet, there were problems between the blacks and the whites even in the beginning just like other places in America.As for being 1/8 black, I think that is outdated wishful thinking. I believe it is incorrect. But, I don't think any percentage would make a difference. He looks black, and people of his time thought he was black. And I'm not talking about the drawing, I'm talking about the photos.There has been a lot of research done recently in this area. Margaret and Darius have combed through the archives as well as other information and found more information.You certainly would believe that Jane Manning James was black. She was promised an endowment and a sealing. She eventually got something less than that, but her letters clearly claim that JS promised her more.David O Mckay said it was a policy and not a doctrine.

Stanley, on Oct 1 2008, 09:54 PM, said:

You seem to focus on the exception to the basic rule of the church's 100+ policy of banning Blacks from the priesthood.  Have YOU done research and read some of the racist publications distributed within the LDS Church?  One, The Juvenile Instructor, comes to mind.  Although privately owned in 1868, it published racist material and is classified as "semi-official" according to Wiki.Check the October 15th, 1868 issue in particular.

One of the popular books of the day claimed that blacks were created when Eve had an affair with the snake in the garden. (No it is not a Mormon book.)Our whole view on blacks was disgusting in that time period. it serves us well to distance ourselves from this.

[kamenraider]

calmoriah, on Oct 2 2008, 01:02 AM, said:

CFR please that Abel was 7/8 white.

http://www.xmission....tral/chorg2.htm

For a couple of references, you can click on this link and then hit "Ctrl - F" and look for "octoroon".

[MormonMason]

DispensatorMysteriorum, on Sep 28 2008, 10:34 AM, said:

That is myth, not doctrine.  The fact is that priesthood was given to blacks until Utah (around 1848) with no explanation.

Actually, there were further ordinations in Utah even after 1848. Here is an ordination record for one of Elijah Abel's descendents:

 Elijah_Abel_son_of_Enoch_Abel.jpg   42.41K   4 downloads

I somehow managed to misplace my other ones so will have to look for them but there are indeed more than this one. At least I didn't manage to lose all of them and I can post this one.   

Edit: While looking through more of my stuff, I also just came across this one in a fairly recent edition of one of the Tanners' books. I thought I might have stuck my stuff with theirs for my move a bit ago. No dice! Where did I put that stuff....!!!!!  

Edited by MormonMason, 26 October 2008 - 01:13 AM.