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consiglieri

Why Do Christians Say Mormons Are Not Christian?

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This seems to be what Johnny and AKboy are claiming. That you ahve to have the correct understanding of who God is.

And just what is the "correct understanding". That to me means that you would need a perfect understanding, to have the correct understanding.

I don't know about Johnny, but that's not what I'm claiming. This is what I just wrote a few posts ago on this thread, EVs don't say you have to understand God perfectly to be a Christian. They say you have to understand the basic fundamentals of God and His teachings.

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consiglieri

Capiche?

I Capiche that the Mormon Church teaches that "false Christianity" believes that God was a being without form which means that Catholics and Protestants are "false Christianity" according to the teachings of the Mormon Church.

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Johnny:

I'm headed out of town for a little while in just a few minutes, so there's no danger of my being sucked into an endless and pointless conversation with you. (Been there, done that.)

That makes it safe for me to make one observation:

You seem to be laboring under a too-narrow definition of "false."

A proposition can be false (e.g., 2+2=5) and a wife can be false -- but they are not "false" in the same sense. A "false wife" is "false" or "untrue" -- that is, unfaithful -- to her husband. She may be a real wife, though. In fact, she must be a real wife. Otherwise, the notion that she's a "false wife" makes no sense. A woman cannot be a false wife to a man to whom she is not genuinely married.

Latter-day Saints have never said that Catholics or Protestants or the Orthodox were non-Christians.

If you can wrap your mind around such concepts, I think it will help you to understand the Mormon position. But you'll need to give it a genuine effort, seeking to understand before you seek to score points.

Give it a shot.

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EVs don't say you have to understand God perfectly to be a Christian. They say you have to understand the basic fundamentals of God and His teachings. If you don't understand them, then you can't follow them. And if you're not following those teachings, the basic teachings of Christ, you're not a Christian. That's the message.

You're shifting your goalposts. In your post before this, you stated (and I'm assuming you agreed with it):

They assume a Christian is someone who follows Christ's example and teachings accurately, as he taught them.

Now you're saying you just have the understand the basic fundamentals.

Which one is it? And who has the authority to define what the "basic fundamentals" are?

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Daniel Peterson

Latter-day Saints have never said that Catholics or Protestants or the Orthodox were non-Christians.

Read my post again ... I didn't say "non-Christians", I said according to the teachings of the Mormon Church Catholics and Protestants are "false Christianity" .

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consiglieri

I Capiche that the Mormon Church teaches that "false Christianity" believes that God was a being without form which means that Catholics and Protestants are "false Christianity" according to the teachings of the Mormon Church.

HAhahahahaha, Johnn you are a robot I swear.

The Johnny will respond,

"I am not a robot, Mormonsism is false".

Johnny I have seen you over and over and over repeat that mormonism is false.

I have news for you, You arent winning any converts.

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Mola Ram Suda Ra...

Johnny I have seen you over and over and over repeat that mormonism is false.

In the thread below instead of simply saying Mormonism is false, I said the following:

Are Mormons Christians?,

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208490390

Mormons are Mormons, they believe the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon reveals a different gospel, the BoM reveals we are saved â??after all we can doâ?. The Bible reveals â??by grace are ye saved through faith â?¦ Not of worksâ?.

Christians are disciples of Christ, the disciples of Christ continue in his word, Christians continue in "there is one God". With the words "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord" Jesus taught that there is one God; and there is none other but he. Jesus did not teach â??three Godsâ? like Joseph Smith. The early Christians did not believe in â??three Godsâ? like Joseph Smith taught. The early Christian bishop who was ordained by the apostle Peter taught â??one Godâ?.

Mormons believe Jesus is the son of heavenly mother and the Son of God.

Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God.

Mormons believe in a Godhead that contains three Gods.

Christians believe in a Godhead that contains one God.

Mormons believe Christ did â??his partâ? to atone for our sins.

Christians believe Christ died for our sins.

Mormons hope in eternal life through eternal marriage.

Christians hope in eternal life through faith in His life, death and resurrection.

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Mola Ram Suda Ra...

In the thread below instead of simply saying Mormonism is false, I said the following:

Are Mormons Christians?,

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...mp;p=1208490390

Mormons are Mormons, they believe the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon reveals a different gospel, the BoM reveals we are saved â??after all we can doâ?. The Bible reveals â??by grace are ye saved through faith â?¦ Not of worksâ?.

Christians are disciples of Christ, the disciples of Christ continue in his word, Christians continue in "there is one God". With the words "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord" Jesus taught that there is one God; and there is none other but he. Jesus did not teach â??three Godsâ? like Joseph Smith. The early Christians did not believe in â??three Godsâ? like Joseph Smith taught. The early Christian bishop who was ordained by the apostle Peter taught â??one Godâ?.

Mormons believe Jesus is the son of heavenly mother and the Son of God.

Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God.

Mormons believe in a Godhead that contains three Gods.

Christians believe in a Godhead that contains one God.

Mormons believe Christ did â??his partâ? to atone for our sins.

Christians believe Christ died for our sins.

Mormons hope in eternal life through eternal marriage.

Christians hope in eternal life through faith in His life, death and resurrection.

*yawn*

But mormonis is still false. You will be assimilated. Destroy all mormonism.

Error. Does not compute.

Error

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

/Error!!

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You're shifting your goalposts. In your post before this, you stated (and I'm assuming you agreed with it):

Now you're saying you just have the understand the basic fundamentals.

Which one is it? And who has the authority to define what the "basic fundamentals" are?

I wasn't shifting goal posts. When I said 'Christ's example and teachings' I was referring to the basic fundamentals of His example and teachings. And I said we need to follow them accurately, not perfectly, to be a Christian.

God is the only one with the authority to define what the basic fundamentals, but that's not what the issue is. If two people disagree on what the fundamentals are, can they both be Christian?

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Honestly, i think the majority of non-LDS christians who consider us to be non-Christian believe that solely because they were taught it by someone else.

This is a very important point, and I think this hits the nail right on the head.

In all my years as an EV, I noticed that the various theological systems thrive on a "superiority" complex over other systems. For instance, myself and my family were conditioned while I was growing up to believe that public schools were inferior to Christian schools in that they had inferior standards, violent students, and taught abiogenesis as fact in evolutionary science. My family was convinced to spend thousands of dollars every year to send me to church schools, and I even went to a Christian college for the first two years of my education. I was worried when I went to a public college for the first time because I was so conditioned to believe they were inferior to the schools I had been going to. Now that I've gone to secular universities and have taught in the public school system I realize the stupidity in this type of thinking.

It doesn't end with education. All other belief systems are shown as inferior or damning. If suddenly all the top EV authors and theologians suddenly started saying LDS are saved we would see the end of antimormonism. However, their leaders will never allow them to see us as just another denomination, since we have no paid clergy, which is a big threat to their way of doing things, and we believe that the Bible is not complete, with other historical documents and modern-day revelations containing more of God's word. This is a big threat to them as well since they can't afford to change things or admit they were wrong at this point. I believe in the BYU channel special on the Dead Sea Scrolls most protestant universities did not want to study them, and they tend to throw every extrabiblical document that comes forward as either "gnostic" or "pseudopigrapha."

I think the Trinity issue is a smokescreen. Our Jesus Christ is the same Christ that any other church believes in. The important thing that makes someone a Christian, IMHO, is that you trust His atonement and blood sacrifice as sufficient to provide you forgiveness of sin. Every protestant I've taken to the visitor's center or to church agrees with me that we believe in the same Christ that they do.

There are some groups that believe in Christ and revere Him that I wouldn't consider Christians, though, such as Islam, Jehovah's Witness, or MacArthurites. For instance, Islam and Jehovah's Witness revere Jesus Christ as a prophet and teacher but do not believe that He was divine or that He died for our sins. MacArthur's group believes Christ is divine, but they deny the effectiveness of the Atonement as a blood sacrifice for our sins. (http://rlhymersjr.com/Online_Sermons/09-22...ndTheBlood.html

The main qualification to be Christian to me is that you believe in the same Christ mentioned in the Four Gospels and accept His atonement as the only way you can receive forgiveness of sins. Just reading our sacrament prayers and the chapter on the Atonement in our Gospel Principles manual shows we do. Some have said we don't believe Christ is unique, but this is false. He is the Only Begotten Son of God and is a member of the Godhead. He was chosen in the beginning by God to carry out His role as the Messiah, and is not equal to Lucifer. Lucifer lost his status as a son of God when he rebelled. We teach this in both the church and the temple. Jesus Christ created the world and was Jehovah in the Old Testament and the Messiah in the New.

See this link, because this is what the LDS church really believes about Jesus Christ from the words of our last prophet, and I don't think any protestant can say we are not saved based on this, in fact, most protestants would agree with this: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne..._&hideNav=1

Where Mormonism diverges from mainstream Christianity is more on non-salvific points of doctrine. If you look at the first four principles of the Gospel, no Mormon would say that protestants don't have the first two, which would at least get them to the terrestrial kingdom in Mormon doctrine. If protestants honestly knew how our church really is, I don't believe they would disagree with us having the first two either. Also, LDS believe that the protestants have a chance to accept a vicarious baptism assuming the Holy Ghost did not teach them of the truthfulness of the LDS church in this life. I think that many protestants would be pleasantly surprised if they could only attend our church for a month or so and see what we believe about Jesus Christ first-hand.

Sorry for the long rant, but this really cuts me to the quick since many in my family have turned their back on my grandmother and I since all they know is what the antis have told them. Although I understand some EVs, like Billy Graham and Rick Warren, have been more open to the idea of us being Christians, I just wish people would be more open to making up their own mind. Since joining this church I have focused more on Jesus Christ than I have at any other point during the 26 years I was an EV.

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Now, obviously, this does not apply to all Christians; but we have to go no further than the postings on this board to know that a sizeable number of Christians refuse to allow the Mormons to use that sobriquet.

This is specifically NOT a thread about WHETHER Mormons are Christian. (We really have had enough of that, I think.)

This IS a thread about WHY some Christians refuse to allow that Mormonism is Christian.

Any takers?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I was labeled a "non beleiver" on one discusion board because God and his son are differant beings. :P

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Johnny why do you not answer your own back door of web addresss ? while you are pounding at the front door of this web site ?. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/catholic.htm.

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Honestly, with all the shots I've seen EVs take at Catholics over the years, I am very surprised that Catholics say that we are not Christians. When I was in Bible College my EV professors taught me that the Catholic church is a non-Christian cult and that the Church of Rome is a fulfillment of the evil church in Revelation 17. In John Calvin's Institutes he calls the Pope the antichrist.

Catholics have been victimized by the same witchunt we have over the years, and to me it would seem like they would be a lot more understanding about us being Christians. I'm not saying I agree with any Catholic theology, just that they are Christians that are accused of not being Christians just like we are, and I would expect more understanding.

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I wasn't shifting goal posts. When I said 'Christ's example and teachings' I was referring to the basic fundamentals of His example and teachings. And I said we need to follow them accurately, not perfectly, to be a Christian.

Accurately, but not perfectly.

You'll need to explain that one.

God is the only one with the authority to define what the basic fundamentals, but that's not what the issue is. If two people disagree on what the fundamentals are, can they both be Christian?

So, where does He define the fundamentals clearly and objectively of what it takes to be a Christian?

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Accurately, but not perfectly.

You'll need to explain that one.

There are four different definitions of 'accurate.

1. Conforming exactly to fact; errorless.

2. Deviating only slightly or within acceptable limits from a standard.

3. Capable of providing a correct reading or measurement: an accurate scale.

4. Acting or performing with care and precision; meticulous: an accurate proofreader.'

3 and 4 doesn't fit with in this context and 1 is synonymous with perfect. 2 is a perfectly acceptable definition, no pun intended. Christ set the standard for what it means to follow Him. If I deviate from that standard outside the acceptable limit, it means I'm no longer a Christian, even if I think I'm still faithful.

So, where does He define the fundamentals clearly and objectively of what it takes to be a Christian?

There are multiple passages in the gospels that talk about following Christ. Romans also has a lot of important stuff, plus Galatians, Ephesians and 1 John. There's probably other passages, but that should cover most of it.

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bjw

Catholics have been victimized by the same witchunt we have over the years, and to me it would seem like they would be a lot more understanding about us being Christians.

It seems to me like the Mormon Church is not very understanding.

The Mormon Church says Catholic and Protestant Christianity is false Christianity because they don't believe the Mormon doctrine that God has a form.

According to Joseph Smith, Christ said that the sects like Catholicism and Protestantism are all wrong.

What makes the believing God has a form a non-negotiable tenet of true Christianity?

Why does the Mormon Church not allow that Catholicism and Protestantism Christianity to be called true Christianity?

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bjw

It seems to me like the Mormon Church is not very understanding.

The Mormon Church says Catholic and Protestant Christianity is false Christianity because they don't believe the Mormon doctrine that God has a form.

According to Joseph Smith, Christ said that the sects like Catholicism and Protestantism are all wrong.

What makes the believing God has a form a non-negotiable tenet of true Christianity?

Why does the Mormon Church not allow that Catholicism and Protestantism Christianity to be called true Christianity?

You seem to be stuck on the word "true". We believe the teaching of 'God having no form' to be false. If you lump all the teachings that are false together, that would comprise "false christianity".

We say that Catholics are Christian. You want us to use the term "true" in front of it as an admission that the Catholic church is the "true" church. Though we believe the Catholic church to have truth in it, but it also has misconceptions and inaccuarcies, or "false" teachings. Is it all false? No. Do we think that you are truly and sincerely trying to follow Christ? Yes. So in that sense you are "true" christians, but "true" christianity for for the true teachings of Christ.

Now you take offense at us because someone used the term "false christianity". Let me ask you, do you and all other catholics think mormonism is "true christianity? If not, why then would you feel slighted that mormons would not use that term to describe catholicism in total?

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EVs don't say you have to understand God perfectly to be a Christian. They say you have to understand the basic fundamentals of God and His teachings. If you don't understand them, then you can't follow them. And if you're not following those teachings, the basic teachings of Christ, you're not a Christian. That's the message.

You say to be a Christian, "you have to understand the basic fundamentals of God and His teachings. If you don't understand them, then you can't follow them." With over 10,000 different sects and denomination of Christians in the U.S. alone because of schisms or what have you it seems to me that the basic fundamentals are in the eye of the beholder. With so many different sects which one of those is the 'true Chruch?' I would really like to know.

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Flyonthewall

You seem to be stuck on the word "true". We believe the teaching of 'God having no form' to be false. If you lump all the teachings that are false together, that would comprise "false christianity".

I am stuck on the Mormon teaching that Catholic and Protestant Christianity is false Christianity.

We say that Catholics are Christian. You want us to use the term "true" in front of it as an admission that the Catholic church is the "true" church. Though we believe the Catholic church to have truth in it, but it also has misconceptions and inaccuarcies, or "false" teachings. Is it all false? No. Do we think that you are truly and sincerely trying to follow Christ? Yes. So in that sense you are "true" christians, but "true" christianity for for the true teachings of Christ.

I find it amusing that Mormons can say Catholics and Protestance are "true" Christians yet they are "false" Christianity.

Let me ask you, do you and all other catholics think mormonism is "true christianity? If not, why then would you feel slighted that mormons would not use that term to describe catholicism in total?

I think Mormonism is "false Christianity", I also think Mormons consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians (see the links below from ETWN, a Catholic Television Network).

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=

  • Although Mormons certainly consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically. The Church has ruled that Mormon baptism is not valid, which means that Mormons are not Christians by baptism. Since Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and do not believe in Christ's divinity (as it is understood by orthodox Christians), they are not theological Christians either.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=

  • Those who deny the doctrine of the Holy Trinity deny that Christ is God. Now if one denies that Christ is God, he is denying an essential aspect of Christianity.

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There are four different definitions of 'accurate.

1. Conforming exactly to fact; errorless.

2. Deviating only slightly or within acceptable limits from a standard.

3. Capable of providing a correct reading or measurement: an accurate scale.

4. Acting or performing with care and precision; meticulous: an accurate proofreader.'

3 and 4 doesn't fit with in this context and 1 is synonymous with perfect. 2 is a perfectly acceptable definition, no pun intended. Christ set the standard for what it means to follow Him. If I deviate from that standard outside the acceptable limit, it means I'm no longer a Christian, even if I think I'm still faithful.

And who has the authority to interpret what is accurate?

Your comments here are interesting. They indicate that faithfulness and being a Christian is based on what you are doing to follow Christ, within whatever framework you deem is basically needed. You've just described salvation based on works, putting the grace of Christ aside (because we all make mistakes within your "accurate standard" from time to time), in the definition of who is Christian.

Very interesting, indeed, coming from an "EV" perspective.

There are multiple passages in the gospels that talk about following Christ. Romans also has a lot of important stuff, plus Galatians, Ephesians and 1 John. There's probably other passages, but that should cover most of it.

Again, who is authoritative in determining which selected passages in the Bible - along with their interpretation - determine who is Christian?

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Flyonthewall

I am stuck on the Mormon teaching that Catholic and Protestant Christianity is false Christianity.

I find it amusing that Mormons can say Catholics and Protestance are "true" Christians yet they are "false" Christianity.

I think Mormonism is "false Christianity", I also think Mormons consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians (see the links below from ETWN, a Catholic Television Network).

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=

  • Although Mormons certainly consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically. The Church has ruled that Mormon baptism is not valid, which means that Mormons are not Christians by baptism. Since Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and do not believe in Christ's divinity (as it is understood by orthodox Christians), they are not theological Christians either.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=

  • Those who deny the doctrine of the Holy Trinity deny that Christ is God. Now if one denies that Christ is God, he is denying an essential aspect of Christianity.

I was under the impression that the Trinity was not a Biblical doctrine until 325AD when it became so by the Nicene Creed. So does that make all Christians before that time non-Christians like us Mormons?

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Flyonthewall

I am stuck on the Mormon teaching that Catholic and Protestant Christianity is false Christianity.

I don't see why. Do you believe Protestant Christianity to be "true" christianity? If so, why? they have different doctrines than catholics, otherwise they would still be catholic. If Protestantism thought Catholicism was true, they would not have broken off from it.
I find it amusing that Mormons can say Catholics and Protestance are "true" Christians yet they are "false" Christianity.
I find it amusing that you deny Mormons to be christian, but feel slighted that we believe that you have some false teachings, but are still christian. :P
I think Mormonism is "false Christianity", I also think Mormons consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians (see the links below from ETWN, a Catholic Television Network).

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=

  • Although Mormons certainly consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically. The Church has ruled that Mormon baptism is not valid, which means that Mormons are not Christians by baptism. Since Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and do not believe in Christ's divinity (as it is understood by orthodox Christians), they are not theological Christians either.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=

  • Those who deny the doctrine of the Holy Trinity deny that Christ is God. Now if one denies that Christ is God, he is denying an essential aspect of Christianity.

See what I mean?

Your list of reasons why mormons are not christian only goes to show that whomever wrote the list does not understand mormonism. If we were to use the same standards you do, we could say that Catholics are not christian neither in baptism nor theoligically. You deny the doctrine of the Godhead so you deny Christ is God and therefore you deny Christisanity.

Basically, you do not believe the same as we do so you are pagans and we are "true" christians. This is what you are trying to say.

You just don't like the same standard used on you that you use on us.

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bjw

It seems to me like the Mormon Church is not very understanding.

The Mormon Church says Catholic and Protestant Christianity is false Christianity because they don't believe the Mormon doctrine that God has a form.

According to Joseph Smith, Christ said that the sects like Catholicism and Protestantism are all wrong.

What makes the believing God has a form a non-negotiable tenet of true Christianity?

Why does the Mormon Church not allow that Catholicism and Protestantism Christianity to be called true Christianity?

Who is the Mormon Church? Never heard of it. I think you may be referring to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

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Hannah Rebekah

I was under the impression that the Trinity was not a Biblical doctrine until 325AD when it became so by the Nicene Creed. So does that make all Christians before that time non-Christians like us Mormons?

The doctrine of the Trinity is about "one God", the Christians before 325 AD believed in "one God" just like today's Christians do.

Joseph Smith taught "three Gods", the Christians before 325 AD did not believe in "three Gods" like Mormons do.

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Flyonthewall

Idon't see why. Do you believe Protestant Christianity to be "true" christianity? If so, why? they have different doctrines than catholics, otherwise they would still be catholic. If Protestantism thought Catholicism was true, they would not have broken off from it.

Catholics believe Protestant to be Christians. Catholics accept Protestant baptisms as valid, Catholics do not accept Mormon baptisms as valid. Protestant Christianity believes in the essential aspect of Christianity which is Christ is God.

I find it amusing that you deny Mormons to be christian, but feel slighted that we believe that you have some false teachings, but are still christian.

I deny Mormons to be Christians because they deny the essential aspect of Christianity which is one God.

See what I mean?

Your list of reasons why mormons are not christian only goes to show that whomever wrote the list does not understand mormonism. If we were to use the same standards you do, we could say that Catholics are not christian neither in baptism nor theoligically. You deny the doctrine of the Godhead so you deny Christ is God and therefore you deny Christisanity.

Basically, you do not believe the same as we do so you are pagans and we are "true" christians. This is what you are trying to say.

You just don't like the same standard used on you that you use on us

.

Those who wrote the list probably understood that Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church teach "three Gods".

Catholics do not deny the doctrine of the Godhead, the Godhead is part of the Catholic creed.

Catholics deny the Mormon teaching that there are "three Gods" in the Godhead.

The standard is the doctrine that the Bible reveals, the Bible reveals "one God". The Bible does not reveal "three Gods" like Joseph Smith taught.

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