124 replies to this topic

[brightpath]

LeSellers, on Jun 15 2008, 05:14 PM, said:

I had no trouble finding the names of three groups of people listed on the title page. What I have trouble doing is figuring out how you count.

Here's what we have:

• Jews, a shorthand name for all of Israel; also a traditional term meaning "the covenant people" (whoever that might be â?? see below)
  • The Jews â?? in Moroni's time, that would be the sub-branch of the Israelites; what is effectively a "remnant of the House of Israel"
    
  • The Northern Israelites/Ten Tribes â?? another remnant of the House of Israel
    
  • The Lamanites â?? yet a third remnant of Israel
• Gentiles, everyone else

Where we disagree is in there being exactly three groups, not two, not four or more, among all the people of the earth. I say there are two.

Moroni simply counted "one from column 'A' and two from column 'B'" (or vice versa). The Lamanites could very well be the mixture you note, but that would still make them Israel (rather than gentiles or some other group). Jews, as Nephi tells us, was a term that had at least two meanings, not completely overlapping. The usage among Nephites seemed to be political, rather than religious, because he spoke of Jews as being them from whom he came. (Remember, Nephi was not a "Jew", he was a "Manassehite".)Notice Nephi uses the terms interchangeably.

You might be having a hard time understanding it because that's not what I said. What I said was "[Moroni wrote] long after there actually were Jews"; in contrast to the time of, say, Abraham, before there were any "Jews" because their eponymous father, Judah, had not even been born yet. The first use of the word "goy" is in Genesis 10:5, where it is translated "nations"; Judah doesn't make his first appearance until Gen 29:35.  So, "gentiles" ("goyim") doesn't just mean non-Jews, it means "those not of the covenant people".

The Jaredites, another group, whose descendants intermixed with the Nephites (and probably with the Lamanites, too), don't show up in Moroni's list. Whether they were "Jews", as I understand the word (covenant people) or gentiles (non-covenant people) before this intermarrying is open to debate because the specific covenant is not identified clearly. If it means the covenant God made with Abraham (or with Isaac, or with Jacob), then they are "gentiles", but if it's any other covenant, including the one God made with Jared and Mahonri Moricancumer, then they are "Jews". The language is tricky and we have little concrete evidence to guide us, along with much to confuse.

There are two groups of people. For convenience, we use the terms Jews (which means the covenant people) and the gentiles (the non-covenant people). The Lamanites (the particular concern of Lehi, Nephi, Enos, ..., Mormon, and finally, Moroni) are part of one or the other group, but they got specific mention because they were the brethren of the writers of the Book of Mormon, not because they constituted a separate people or group of people.

Lehi

The reason why Nephi refers to himself a a Jew is because he was from the Southern Kingdom and from Jerusalem. The SK was primarily Judah. For this reason he called himself a Jew. Later on when he got the records from Laban he found out he was from the tribe of Joseph(Manasseh).
The Jaredites did not mix with the Nephites. Limhi's people discovered their bones,ruins,records,and Coriantumr. The last Jaredite.
There has always been 2 groups of people. Gentiles and the chosen seed(Covenant people-AKAIsraelites)After the flood Noah had 3 sons. From Ham sprand the black Gentiles. From Japheth sprang the rest of the Gentiles and from Shem sprang the chosen seed(Covanant people) to preserve the priesthhood rite. The chosen seed was later referred to as Israelites(Jacob). The Jaredites came from this seed according to the title pge of the BofM. They are called the forefathers of the House of Israel.

[LeSellers]

brightpath, on Jul 3 2008, 10:56 AM, said:

The reason why Nephi refers to himself a a Jew is because he was from the Southern Kingdom and from Jerusalem. The SK was primarily Judah. For this reason he called himself a Jew. Later on when he got the records from Laban he found out he was from the tribe of Joseph(Manasseh).

Golleee, if I didn't say this, I shure meant to.

brightpath said:

The Jaredites did not mix with the Nephites. Limhi's people discovered their bones,ruins,records,and Coriantumr. The last Jaredite.

Not so fast. This is an assumption. There are so many Jaredite names in the Book of Mormon outside of Ether that I believe it to be a very poor assumption. Nibley did an excellent article on this, although I do not have a copy under my hand right now.

Let's not forget that "Nephite" and "Lamanite" are political, not lineage terms. Remember when Jacob told us that "Nephite" meant those who were friendly to the Nephis and "Lamanites" were all their enemies? When any Jaredites joined either camp, they took the political name of the group they joined.

Jacob 1:14 said:

But I, Jacob, shall not hereafter distinguish them by these names, but I shall call them Lamanites that seek to destroy the people of Nephi, and those who are friendly to Nephi I shall call Nephites, or the people of Nephi, according to the reigns of the kings.

brightpath said:

There has always been 2 groups of people. Gentiles and the chosen seed(Covenant people-AKAIsraelites)After the flood Noah had 3 sons. From Ham sprand the black Gentiles. From Japheth sprang the rest of the Gentiles and from Shem sprang the chosen seed(Covanant people) to preserve the priesthhood rite. The chosen seed was later referred to as Israelites(Jacob).

I am sure I said this very thing. The "Jews" being a sort of shorthand for "the chosen people".

brightpath said:

The Jaredites came from this seed according to the title pge of the BofM. They are called the forefathers of the House of Israel.

I must have missed this.

Title Page said:

THE BOOK OF MORMON
AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY
THE HAND OF MORMON
UPON PLATES
TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanitesâ??Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentileâ??Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelationâ??Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyedâ??To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof--Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentileâ??The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heavenâ??Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off foreverâ?? And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nationsâ??And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

Please highlight the part that says the Jaredites are the forefathers of Israel, for I cannot find it. (And don't forget that the punctuation and paragraphing are not by Joseph Smith (or any LDS), but by a hostile typesetter who did not know the Book of Mormon story, and did not believe Joseph was a prophet.)

It makes no sense, though, as you have written it because the Jaredites had no descendants in the Old World, so Israel (and Abraham, their father) could not have sprung from among them. That they may have been Semites (i.e of Shem) I have no argument, but they certanly were not the forefathers of Israel.

Lehi

[brightpath]

LeSellers, on Jul 3 2008, 11:44 AM, said:

Golleee, if I didn't say this, I shure meant to.

Not so fast. This is an assumption. There are so many Jaredite names in the Book of Mormon outside of Ether that I believe it to be a very poor assumption. Nibley did an excellent article on this, although I do not have a copy under my hand right now.

Let's not forget that "Nephite" and "Lamanite" are political, not lineage terms. Remember when Jacob told us that "Nephite" meant those who were friendly to the Nephis and "Lamanites" were all their enemies? When any Jaredites joined either camp, they took the political name of the group they joined.

I am sure I said this very thing. The "Jews" being a sort of shorthand for "the chosen people".

I must have missed this. Please highlight the part that says the Jaredites are the forefathers of Israel, for I cannot find it. (And don't forget that the punctuation and paragraphing are not by Joseph Smith (or any LDS), but by a hostile typesetter who did not know the Book of Mormon story, and did not believe Joseph was a prophet.)

It makes no sense, though, as you have written it because the Jaredites had no descendants in the Old World, so Israel (and Abraham, their father) could not have sprung from among them. That they may have been Semites (i.e of Shem) I have no argument, but they certanly were not the forefathers of Israel.

Lehi

God told Ether Coriantumr would be the last Jaredite living. This was his punishment for not believing Ether. I tend to believe God over what Nibley says. The names of Jaredites probably came from the book of Ether and Coriantumr himself.
If you read the second paragraph of the Title page, I think it's pretty clear! If you throw out the punctuation it still makes sense. The Book of Ether and the people of Jared came from Shem's seed(The chosen seed). Babel was built just after the flood. This is why they are referred to as the father's of the House of Israel.

[LeSellers]

brightpath, on Jul 3 2008, 12:01 PM, said:

God told Ether Coriantumr would be the last Jaredite living. This was his punishment for not believing Ether.

Except that's not exactly what Ether to relay on to Coriantumr:

Ether 13 said:

20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the peopleâ??21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.

Where does it say that "Coriantumr would be the last living Jaredite"? Because, as I read it, it does not say this at all.

We should read what's there, not what we think is there, nor what we have been told is there. "Destroyed" does not equal "annihilated". What will be "destroyed" anyway? Is it the people or Coriantumr's (disputed) kingdom?

It does not say that only Coriantumr would live, but that the only reason he would live was so that he could see the fulfilling of the prophecies.  

We read that the Nephites were "destroyed", yet Moroni clearly tells us that many went south and although they denied the Christ, they were still Nephites, and were not killed. Moroni, another Nephite, was himself not killed. "Destroyed" can mean many things, and is far from a synonym for completely erased form the face of the earth.

The last chapters of Ether are full of vast armies attacking each other, and of the two kings amassing all in their paths to join them (conscription), but it is such a sweeping saga that it, by necessity, misses the minutia. People have been swept into such armies throughout much of history. Yet not everyone of the ethnic group was destroyed or even press-ganged into military service. Many ran a way, or hid otherwise. There is no reason to assume that the words you seem to read as demonstrating that every man, woman, and child were marshaled into one army or the other. Ether writes only of those who were, not of those whom he did not see.

We have a similar situation in ancient England. The Romans destroyed the Iceni under Boudica, but refugees migrated and settled new lands and merged with their new neighbors.

brightpath said:

I tend to believe God over what Nibley says.

Have you read Dr. Nibley's works on this subject?

You are free to believe anything you choose, but you are not free to insist that your interpretation of scripture is the only one possible, and expect me to reject what I have determined solely on your say-so.

brightpath said:

The names of Jaredites probably came from the book of Ether and Coriantumr himself.

"Probably"? You expect me to take your word as gospel, and you offer "probably"?

brightpath said:

If you read the second paragraph of the Title page, I think it's pretty clear! ... The Book of Ether and the people of Jared came from Shem's seed(The chosen seed). Babel was built just after the flood. This is why they are referred to as the father's of the House of Israel.

You keep making htis claim., I know it's probably just me, but please show where the Title Page says this, for I cannot locate these words, nor this idea.

Title Page said:

THE BOOK OF MORMON
AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY
THE HAND OF MORMON
UPON PLATES
TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanitesâ??Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentileâ??Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelationâ??Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyedâ??To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof--Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentileâ??The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heavenâ??Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off foreverâ?? And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nationsâ??And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

Just to be sure you understand, I am not saying your conclusion about Shem is wrong (because I agree with you), but the evidence you offer does not support the case. The Title Page does not mention Shem. You can wave your hands all yoiu like, but you cannot make the words appear as you assert.

Lehi

[brightpath]

LeSellers, on Jul 5 2008, 05:38 PM, said:

Except that's not exactly what Ether to relay on to Coriantumr: Where does it say that "Coriantumr would be the last living Jaredite"? Because, as I read it, it does not say this at all.

We should read what's there, not what we think is there, nor what we have been told is there. "Destroyed" does not equal "annihilated". What will be "destroyed" anyway? Is it the people or Coriantumr's (disputed) kingdom?

It does not say that only Coriantumr would live, but that the only reason he would live was so that he could see the fulfilling of the prophecies.  

We read that the Nephites were "destroyed", yet Moroni clearly tells us that many went south and although they denied the Christ, they were still Nephites, and were not killed. Moroni, another Nephite, was himself not killed. "Destroyed" can mean many things, and is far from a synonym for completely erased form the face of the earth.

The last chapters of Ether are full of vast armies attacking each other, and of the two kings amassing all in their paths to join them (conscription), but it is such a sweeping saga that it, by necessity, misses the minutia. People have been swept into such armies throughout much of history. Yet not everyone of the ethnic group was destroyed or even press-ganged into military service. Many ran a way, or hid otherwise. There is no reason to assume that the words you seem to read as demonstrating that every man, woman, and child were marshaled into one army or the other. Ether writes only of those who were, not of those whom he did not see.

We have a similar situation in ancient England. The Romans destroyed the Iceni under Boudica, but refugees migrated and settled new lands and merged with their new neighbors.

Have you read Dr. Nibley's works on this subject?

You are free to believe anything you choose, but you are not free to insist that your interpretation of scripture is the only one possible, and expect me to reject what I have determined solely on your say-so.

"Probably"? You expect me to take your word as gospel, and you offer "probably"?

You keep making htis claim., I know it's probably just me, but please show where the Title Page says this, for I cannot locate these words, nor this idea.
Just to be sure you understand, I am not saying your conclusion about Shem is wrong (because I agree with you), but the evidence you offer does not support the case. The Title Page does not mention Shem. You can wave your hands all yoiu like, but you cannot make the words appear as you assert.

Lehi

Thanks Lehi for your words. Here is the clue I believe that tells us the Jaredites were from Shem(Melchizedek's) seed. The second paragraph where it says. An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heavenâ??WHICH IS TO SHOW UNTO THE REMNANT OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL WHAT GREAT THINGS THE LORD HATH DONE FOR THEIR FATHERS(not shouting). The great thing was bringing them to the Americas and preserving them from Babel.  
Coriantumr was th elast Jardite living. The end of verse 21 says it all."and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr. When the Mulekites found the Jaredite nation they found only ruins, bones, 24 plates, and Coriantumr. That's it. Furthermore if you read the chapter heading of chapter 15 it says, the Jaredite nation is utterly destroyed-Only Coriantumr remains. All the Jaredite people were gathered up into 2 camps. The camp of Shiz and the camp of Coriantumr.