Jaredites And "others"

[brightpath]

The Nephites, Lamanites, and Mulekites mixed throughout the BofM. It really doesn't matter because they were all from the same blood, meaning the tribe of Joseph(Manasseh) and Judah(Mulekites). When Mormon made the statement I am a descendant fo Nephi it means he could trace his lineage all the way back to Nephi. IHe could have also made the claim I am from Lehi.

[Arandur]

By that reasoning, Brightpath, would it have seemed special that Jesus could trace his lineage through David? If direct descent does not matter, many Jews could probably claim some extremely distant relation to David.

[cdowis]

The Nephites, Lamanites, and Mulekites mixed throughout the BofM. It really doesn't matter because they were all from the same blood, meaning the tribe of Joseph(Manasseh) and Judah(Mulekites). When Mormon made the statement I am a descendant fo Nephi it means he could trace his lineage all the way back to Nephi. IHe could have also made the claim I am from Lehi.

Why did Mormon say he was a "pure" descendant from Lehi, if everyone came from Lehi? Did it occur to you that he was distinguishing himself from someone who was not descended from Lehi?

I guess you are having some difficulty wrapping your mind around that concept.

[cinepro]

Why did Mormon say he was a "pure" descendant from Lehi, if everyone came from Lehi? Did it occur to you that he was distinguishing himself from someone who was not descended from Lehi?

I guess you are having some difficulty wrapping your mind around that concept.

Not everyone came from Lehi. Zoram, Mulek, and Ishmael all threw their tadpoles into the gene pool.

[MormonMason]

Not everyone came from Lehi. Zoram, Mulek, and Ishmael all threw their tadpoles into the gene pool.

And, don't forget some remnants of the Jaredites, who were also Gentiles themselves.

The Book of Mormon Title page does seem to mention that the Jaredites were among the fathers of the Lamanites and so forth. But, the Jaredites existed in the time of the building of the great tower, which was well over a thousand years before the birth of Israel, the chosen seed. Thus, the Jaredites were Gentiles and they are among the ancestors of the Lamanites. And, then, there were those who came from other places and mixed in with them as well, people from Asia, and from various other places.

[brightpath]

Not everyone came from Lehi. Zoram, Mulek, and Ishmael all threw their tadpoles into the gene pool.

There were 2 main groups in America.The Nephites and Lamanites. Mormon was a Nephite so his father was Nephi. This is why he stated he was a descendant of Nephi. Zoram was one man. His blood was washed out in the 5th or 6th generation. Part of Ishmael's family went with Nephi, thus they were called Nephites. Thru this lineage Mormon could trace is geneology back to Nephi.

[brightpath]

And, don't forget some remnants of the Jaredites, who were also Gentiles themselves.

The Book of Mormon Title page does seem to mention that the Jaredites were among the fathers of the Lamanites and so forth. But, the Jaredites existed in the time of the building of the great tower, which was well over a thousand years before the birth of Israel, the chosen seed. Thus, the Jaredites were Gentiles and they are among the ancestors of the Lamanites. And, then, there were those who came from other places and mixed in with them as well, people from Asia, and from various other places.

God has always worked with a certain group of people throughout time. Even though Israel wasn't around at the tower of Bable they were the forefathers of the Lamanites(Israel) The tile page says so. They were not Gentiles. Ether was a prophet from the chosen seed. There was never in the history of the gospel a Gentile prophet until these latter days.

[Zakuska]

God has always worked with a certain group of people throughout time. Even though Israel wasn't around at the tower of Bable they were the forefathers of the Lamanites(Israel) The tile page says so. They were not Gentiles. Ether was a prophet from the chosen seed. There was never in the history of the gospel a Gentile prophet until these latter days.

Aren't you forgetting about one very important biblical Gentile Prophet?

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1583152

[MormonMason]

God has always worked with a certain group of people throughout time. Even though Israel wasn't around at the tower of Bable they were the forefathers of the Lamanites(Israel) The tile page says so. They were not Gentiles. Ether was a prophet from the chosen seed..

Ok. You yourself stated in another thread that there are only three kinds of people, Jews, Gentiles and Lamanites. Are you saying you now wish to retract that silly idea? If not, then where would Jaredites fit into the above scheme of three kinds of people?

They could not have been Lamanites, because there was no Laman when they were here.

They cannot have been Jews because they were not of Israel and existed thousands of years before Israel was in Rebekah's womb.

That leaves only Gentiles. The Jaredites, therefore, chosen people or not, were Gentiles! Jaredites were among the ancestors of the Lamanites. So says the title page of the Book of Mormon. Therefore, some of the ancestors of the Lamanites were Gentiles!

There was never in the history of the gospel a Gentile prophet until these latter days.

Why do you keep spouting off absolutes in ignorance? Who was Adam? Who was Enoch? Who was Noah? Who was Abraham? Who was Melchizedek? Who was Balaam (as brought up above)? None of these were Jews. None of them were Lamanites. That leaves only one class of people--Gentiles! Therefore, you are wrong--again!

Care to retract your previous claims regarding being ONLY three classes of people according to the Title Page of the Book of Mormon?

[maupayman]

That leaves only Gentiles. The Jaredites, therefore, chosen people or not, were Gentiles! Jaredites were among the ancestors of the Lamanites. So says the title page of the Book of Mormon.

Ahh but the Title page is not doctrine!!!!! See I can be a mormon apologist too!

[LeSellers]

Ahh but the Title page is not doctrine!!!!! See I can be a mormon apologist too!

But not a very good one, since the title page of the Book of Mormon is scripture, and therefore, doctrine.

Joseph Smith tells us:

I wish to mention here that the title-page of the Book of Mormon is a literal translation, taken from the very last leaf, on the left hand side of the collection or book of plates, which contained the record which has been translated, the language of the whole running the same as all Hebrew writing in general; and that said title page is not by any means a modern composition, either of mine or of any other man who has lived or does live in this generation.

It was written by Moroni, and, since he was a prophet, and writing under the influence of the Holy Ghost, and is part of our canon, it merits the appellation "scripture".

Lehi

[brightpath]

But not a very good one, since the title page of the Book of Mormon is scripture, and therefore, doctrine.

Joseph Smith tells us: It was written by Moroni, and, since he was a prophet, and writing under the influence of the Holy Ghost, and is part of our canon, it merits the appellation "scripture".

Lehi

Thank You Lesellers. The BofM title page is doctrine and comes straight from God. I'm not the one saying there are only 3 groups of people. GOD himself is saying it. If you question the title page then you question God! Again, according to the title page there are only three groups of people. The Lamanites(Israel-Joseph-Manasseh-Native Americans). Lamanites are also referred to as the branch broken off or the stick of Joseph(BofM). The Jews(Judah) and then the Gentiles(the rest of the world). After the flood thru Noah's son came 3 races. Ham-the seed of cain or blacks. Japheth-the gentile race and Shem. Thru Shem is where the chosen seed comes from. Shem-Abraham-Isaac-Jacob(Israel). The Jaredites come through Shem's lineage. How do we know this. The title page of the BofM tells us and no genitles inhabited the amercas until the Nephites(israel)rejected the gospel. Balaam was not a prophet of God. He was a gentile false prophet. He was not an Israelite.

[cdowis]

Mormon was a Nephite so his father was Nephi. This is why he stated he was a descendant of Nephi.

My edition of the BOM says, "I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of **Lehi**". I realize that the antimormon version differs significantly from the LDS version.

Anyway, may I suggest that you stick to the Title Page, since that is your claim to expertise in the BOM.

[LeSellers]

Thank You Lesellers.

Look, I sign every message "Lehi". No one should have any problem knowing the name I prefer; it is my name. I was forced to take my second choice as an account name because some interloper (who hasn't been seen since 3 September 2007, and has only posted 448 messages) took my legitimate name (it would greatly surprise me if anyone else shared this specific name). I'd much prefer people call me by the name my parents gave me, which they chose because it was also my grandfather's name.

The BofM title page is doctrine and comes straight from God. I'm not the one saying there are only 3 groups of people. GOD himself is saying it. If you question the title page then you question God!

No, you are the one saying there are only three groups of people. We can question your interpretation of the title page without questioning God.

Again, according to the title page there are only three groups of people. The Lamanites(Israel-Joseph-Manasseh-Native Americans). Lamanites are also referred to as the branch broken off or the stick of Joseph(BofM). The Jews(Judah) and then the Gentiles(the rest of the world).

THE BOOK OF MORMON

AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY

THE HAND OF MORMON

UPON PLATES

TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites--Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile--Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation--Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed--To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof--Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile--The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven--Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever-- And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations--And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

I am trying to find a place that says "there are only three groups of people" on the whole earth.

Since Mormon (and later Moroni) abridged the book long after there actually were Jews, and since the Hebrew word translated as "gentiles" is

גּי / גּוי

gôy

BDB Definition:

1. nation, people (noun masculine)
   1. 
      
   2. nation, people
      
      1. usually of non-Hebrew people
         
      2. of descendants of Abraham
         
      3. of Israel
         
         
      4. of swarm of locusts, other animals (figuratively)
         
      5. Goyim? = â??nationsâ? (noun proper masculine)
         
         
         
         So, "gentile" means anyone who isn't an Israelite, nothing more nor less. Thus, there are two groups of people: Israelites (commonly called Jews, as Moroni employed the term), and gentiles. Both groups are subdivided into several other groups, but it is harldy reasonable to say there are three groups because, there are "Jews" and "(Northern) Israelites", and "Gentiles". They do not branch from the same level.

         After the flood thru Noah's son came 3 races. Ham-the seed of cain or blacks. Japheth-the gentile race and Shem. Thru Shem is where the chosen seed comes from. Shem-Abraham-Isaac-Jacob(Israel). The Jaredites come through Shem's lineage. How do we know this. The title page of the BofM tells us and no genitles inhabited the amercas until the Nephites(israel)rejected the gospel.

         This is simply an assumption, because the text does not make this claim. The closest it comes is saying "this land", which could be interpreted as the whole of the Americas, but not likely. Why? you may ask. Because the same phrase shows up many times in the Bible, and there it clearly does not mean all of Asia, or even the Middle East. It means a very small chuck of earth from the eastern Mediterranean Sea to somewhere in the Arabian desert, from Lebanon to the Red Sea.

         Balaam was not a prophet of God. He was a gentile false prophet. He was not an Israelite.

         Balaam was a prophet of God.

         8 And he said unto them, Lodge here this night, and I will bring you word again, as the LORD shall speak unto me: and the princes of Moab abode with Balaam. 9 And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men [are] these with thee?10 And Balaam said unto God, Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, hath sent unto me, saying, 11 Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out.
         12 And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed. 13 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and said unto the princes of Balak, Get you into your land: for the LORD refuseth to give me leave to go with you.
         14 And the princes of Moab rose up, and they went unto Balak, and said, Balaam refuseth to come with us.
         15

[Bender]

cdowis Posted Today, 07:32 AM

My edition of the BOM says, "I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of **Lehi**". I realize that the antimormon version differs significantly from the LDS version.

Anyway, may I suggest that you stick to the Title Page, since that is your claim to expertise in the BOM.

I'm not sure Ive ever seen an anti-mormon version of the BoM, but you might try reading the first chapter of Mormon verse 5. Mormon does state being descendants of Lehi and Nephi.

[cdowis]

You need to understand this post in the context of our entire discussion.

[brightpath]

Look, I sign every message "Lehi". No one should have any problem knowing the name I prefer; it is my name. I was forced to take my second choice as an account name because some interloper (who hasn't been seen since 3 September 2007, and has only posted 448 messages) took my legitimate name (it would greatly surprise me if anyone else shared this specific name). I'd much prefer people call me by the name my parents gave me, which they chose because it was also my grandfather's name.

No, you are the one saying there are only three groups of people. We can question your interpretation of the title page without questioning God.

I am trying to find a place that says "there are only three groups of people" on the whole earth.

Since Mormon (and later Moroni) abridged the book long after there actually were Jews, and since the Hebrew word translated as "gentiles" is So, "gentile" means anyone who isn't an Israelite, nothing more nor less. Thus, there are two groups of people: Israelites (commonly called Jews, as Moroni employed the term), and gentiles. Both groups are subdivided into several other groups, but it is harldy reasonable to say there are three groups because, there are "Jews" and "(Northern) Israelites", and "Gentiles". They do not branch from the same level.

This is simply an assumption, because the text does not make this claim. The closest it comes is saying "this land", which could be interpreted as the whole of the Americas, but not likely. Why? you may ask. Because the same phrase shows up many times in the Bible, and there it clearly does not mean all of Asia, or even the Middle East. It means a very small chuck of earth from the eastern Mediterranean Sea to somewhere in the Arabian desert, from Lebanon to the Red Sea.

Balaam was a prophet of God. There's more in the same vein, but this will do.

No one is saying Balaam endured to the end, nor that he did not succumb to temptaion. But for you to say that Balaam was not a prophet of Go is simply to deny the scriptures.

Lehi

You are having a problem finding 3 groups of people in the title page? Let me help you. In the first paragraph it says"Written to the Lamanites(Joseph-Mannaseh-Native Americans) who are a remnant of the House of Israel. This is group one. "and also to Jew(Judah)(Group 2) and Gentile(Group 3 the rest of the world).

I'm have a hard time understanding your statement about Jews not being on earth when Moroni was present. Jews did exist before Moroni;s time.

[brightpath]

Look, I sign every message "Lehi". No one should have any problem knowing the name I prefer; it is my name. I was forced to take my second choice as an account name because some interloper (who hasn't been seen since 3 September 2007, and has only posted 448 messages) took my legitimate name (it would greatly surprise me if anyone else shared this specific name). I'd much prefer people call me by the name my parents gave me, which they chose because it was also my grandfather's name.

No, you are the one saying there are only three groups of people. We can question your interpretation of the title page without questioning God.

I am trying to find a place that says "there are only three groups of people" on the whole earth.

Since Mormon (and later Moroni) abridged the book long after there actually were Jews, and since the Hebrew word translated as "gentiles" is So, "gentile" means anyone who isn't an Israelite, nothing more nor less. Thus, there are two groups of people: Israelites (commonly called Jews, as Moroni employed the term), and gentiles. Both groups are subdivided into several other groups, but it is harldy reasonable to say there are three groups because, there are "Jews" and "(Northern) Israelites", and "Gentiles". They do not branch from the same level.

This is simply an assumption, because the text does not make this claim. The closest it comes is saying "this land", which could be interpreted as the whole of the Americas, but not likely. Why? you may ask. Because the same phrase shows up many times in the Bible, and there it clearly does not mean all of Asia, or even the Middle East. It means a very small chuck of earth from the eastern Mediterranean Sea to somewhere in the Arabian desert, from Lebanon to the Red Sea.

Balaam was a prophet of God. There's more in the same vein, but this will do.

No one is saying Balaam endured to the end, nor that he did not succumb to temptaion. But for you to say that Balaam was not a prophet of Go is simply to deny the scriptures.

Lehi

You are having a problem finding 3 groups of people in the title page? Let me help you. In the first paragraph it says"Written to the Lamanites(Joseph-Mannaseh-Native Americans) who are a remnant of the House of Israel. This is group one. "and also to Jew(Judah)(Group 2) and Gentile(Group 3 the rest of the world).

I'm have a hard time understanding your statement about Jews not being on earth when Moroni was present. Jews did exist before Moroni;s time.

[MormonMason]

You are having a problem finding 3 groups of people in the title page? Let me help you. In the first paragraph it says"Written to the Lamanites(Joseph-Mannaseh-Native Americans) who are a remnant of the House of Israel. This is group one. "and also to Jew(Judah)(Group 2) and Gentile(Group 3 the rest of the world).

I'm have a hard time understanding your statement about Jews not being on earth when Moroni was present. Jews did exist before Moroni;s time.

But, they didn't when the Jaredites came here.

[LeSellers]

You are having a problem finding 3 groups of people in the title page? Let me help you. In the first paragraph it says"Written to the Lamanites(Joseph-Mannaseh-Native Americans) who are a remnant of the House of Israel. This is group one. "and also to Jew(Judah)(Group 2) and Gentile(Group 3 the rest of the world).

I had no trouble finding the names of three groups of people listed on the title page. What I have trouble doing is figuring out how you count.

Here's what we have:

• Jews, a shorthand name for all of Israel; also a traditional term meaning "the covenant people" (whoever that might be â?? see below)
  • The Jews â?? in Moroni's time, that would be the sub-branch of the Israelites; what is effectively a "remnant of the House of Israel"
    
  • The Northern Israelites/Ten Tribes â?? another remnant of the House of Israel
    
  • The Lamanites â?? yet a third remnant of Israel
    

  [*]Gentiles, everyone else

Where we disagree is in there being exactly three groups, not two, not four or more, among all the people of the earth. I say there are two.

Moroni simply counted "one from column 'A' and two from column 'B'" (or vice versa). The Lamanites could very well be the mixture you note, but that would still make them Israel (rather than gentiles or some other group). Jews, as Nephi tells us, was a term that had at least two meanings, not completely overlapping. The usage among Nephites seemed to be political, rather than religious, because he spoke of Jews as being them from whom he came.

I have charity for the Jew--I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.

(Remember, Nephi was not a "Jew", he was a "Manassehite".)

And I did rehearse unto them the words of Isaiah, who spake concerning the restoration of the Jews, or of the house of Israel ...

Notice Nephi uses the terms interchangeably.

I'm have a hard time understanding your statement about Jews not being on earth when Moroni was present. Jews did exist before Moroni;s time.

You might be having a hard time understanding it because that's not what I said. What I said was "[Moroni wrote] long after there actually were Jews"; in contrast to the time of, say, Abraham, before there were any "Jews" because their eponymous father, Judah, had not even been born yet. The first use of the word "goy" is in Genesis 10:5, where it is translated "nations"; Judah doesn't make his first appearance until Gen 29:35. So, "gentiles" ("goyim") doesn't just mean non-Jews, it means "those not of the covenant people".

The Jaredites, another group, whose descendants intermixed with the Nephites (and probably with the Lamanites, too), don't show up in Moroni's list. Whether they were "Jews", as I understand the word (covenant people) or gentiles (non-covenant people) before this intermarrying is open to debate because the specific covenant is not identified clearly. If it means the covenant God made with Abraham (or with Isaac, or with Jacob), then they are "gentiles", but if it's any other covenant, including the one God made with Jared and Mahonri Moricancumer, then they are "Jews". The language is tricky and we have little concrete evidence to guide us, along with much to confuse.

There are two groups of people. For convenience, we use the terms Jews (which means the covenant people) and the gentiles (the non-covenant people). The Lamanites (the particular concern of Lehi, Nephi, Enos, ..., Mormon, and finally, Moroni) are part of one or the other group, but they got specific mention because they were the brethren of the writers of the Book of Mormon, not because they constituted a separate people or group of people.

Lehi

[brightpath]

I had no trouble finding the names of three groups of people listed on the title page. What I have trouble doing is figuring out how you count.

Here's what we have:

• Jews, a shorthand name for all of Israel; also a traditional term meaning "the covenant people" (whoever that might be â?? see below)
  • The Jews â?? in Moroni's time, that would be the sub-branch of the Israelites; what is effectively a "remnant of the House of Israel"
    
  • The Northern Israelites/Ten Tribes â?? another remnant of the House of Israel
    
  • The Lamanites â?? yet a third remnant of Israel
    

  [*]Gentiles, everyone else

Where we disagree is in there being exactly three groups, not two, not four or more, among all the people of the earth. I say there are two.

Moroni simply counted "one from column 'A' and two from column 'B'" (or vice versa). The Lamanites could very well be the mixture you note, but that would still make them Israel (rather than gentiles or some other group). Jews, as Nephi tells us, was a term that had at least two meanings, not completely overlapping. The usage among Nephites seemed to be political, rather than religious, because he spoke of Jews as being them from whom he came. (Remember, Nephi was not a "Jew", he was a "Manassehite".)Notice Nephi uses the terms interchangeably.

You might be having a hard time understanding it because that's not what I said. What I said was "[Moroni wrote] long after there actually were Jews"; in contrast to the time of, say, Abraham, before there were any "Jews" because their eponymous father, Judah, had not even been born yet. The first use of the word "goy" is in Genesis 10:5, where it is translated "nations"; Judah doesn't make his first appearance until Gen 29:35. So, "gentiles" ("goyim") doesn't just mean non-Jews, it means "those not of the covenant people".

The Jaredites, another group, whose descendants intermixed with the Nephites (and probably with the Lamanites, too), don't show up in Moroni's list. Whether they were "Jews", as I understand the word (covenant people) or gentiles (non-covenant people) before this intermarrying is open to debate because the specific covenant is not identified clearly. If it means the covenant God made with Abraham (or with Isaac, or with Jacob), then they are "gentiles", but if it's any other covenant, including the one God made with Jared and Mahonri Moricancumer, then they are "Jews". The language is tricky and we have little concrete evidence to guide us, along with much to confuse.

There are two groups of people. For convenience, we use the terms Jews (which means the covenant people) and the gentiles (the non-covenant people). The Lamanites (the particular concern of Lehi, Nephi, Enos, ..., Mormon, and finally, Moroni) are part of one or the other group, but they got specific mention because they were the brethren of the writers of the Book of Mormon, not because they constituted a separate people or group of people.

Lehi

The reason why Nephi refers to himself a a Jew is because he was from the Southern Kingdom and from Jerusalem. The SK was primarily Judah. For this reason he called himself a Jew. Later on when he got the records from Laban he found out he was from the tribe of Joseph(Manasseh).

The Jaredites did not mix with the Nephites. Limhi's people discovered their bones,ruins,records,and Coriantumr. The last Jaredite.

There has always been 2 groups of people. Gentiles and the chosen seed(Covenant people-AKAIsraelites)After the flood Noah had 3 sons. From Ham sprand the black Gentiles. From Japheth sprang the rest of the Gentiles and from Shem sprang the chosen seed(Covanant people) to preserve the priesthhood rite. The chosen seed was later referred to as Israelites(Jacob). The Jaredites came from this seed according to the title pge of the BofM. They are called the forefathers of the House of Israel.

[LeSellers]

The reason why Nephi refers to himself a a Jew is because he was from the Southern Kingdom and from Jerusalem. The SK was primarily Judah. For this reason he called himself a Jew. Later on when he got the records from Laban he found out he was from the tribe of Joseph(Manasseh).

Golleee, if I didn't say this, I shure meant to.

The Jaredites did not mix with the Nephites. Limhi's people discovered their bones,ruins,records,and Coriantumr. The last Jaredite.

Not so fast. This is an assumption. There are so many Jaredite names in the Book of Mormon outside of Ether that I believe it to be a very poor assumption. Nibley did an excellent article on this, although I do not have a copy under my hand right now.

Let's not forget that "Nephite" and "Lamanite" are political, not lineage terms. Remember when Jacob told us that "Nephite" meant those who were friendly to the Nephis and "Lamanites" were all their enemies? When any Jaredites joined either camp, they took the political name of the group they joined.

But I, Jacob, shall not hereafter distinguish them by these names, but I shall call them Lamanites that seek to destroy the people of Nephi, and those who are friendly to Nephi I shall call Nephites, or the people of Nephi, according to the reigns of the kings.

There has always been 2 groups of people. Gentiles and the chosen seed(Covenant people-AKAIsraelites)After the flood Noah had 3 sons. From Ham sprand the black Gentiles. From Japheth sprang the rest of the Gentiles and from Shem sprang the chosen seed(Covanant people) to preserve the priesthhood rite. The chosen seed was later referred to as Israelites(Jacob).

I am sure I said this very thing. The "Jews" being a sort of shorthand for "the chosen people".

The Jaredites came from this seed according to the title pge of the BofM. They are called the forefathers of the House of Israel.

I must have missed this.

THE BOOK OF MORMON

AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY

THE HAND OF MORMON

UPON PLATES

TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanitesâ??Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentileâ??Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelationâ??Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyedâ??To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof--Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentileâ??The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heavenâ??Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off foreverâ?? And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nationsâ??And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

Please highlight the part that says the Jaredites are the forefathers of Israel, for I cannot find it. (And don't forget that the punctuation and paragraphing are not by Joseph Smith (or any LDS), but by a hostile typesetter who did not know the Book of Mormon story, and did not believe Joseph was a prophet.)

It makes no sense, though, as you have written it because the Jaredites had no descendants in the Old World, so Israel (and Abraham, their father) could not have sprung from among them. That they may have been Semites (i.e of Shem) I have no argument, but they certanly were not the forefathers of Israel.

Lehi

[brightpath]

Golleee, if I didn't say this, I shure meant to.

Not so fast. This is an assumption. There are so many Jaredite names in the Book of Mormon outside of Ether that I believe it to be a very poor assumption. Nibley did an excellent article on this, although I do not have a copy under my hand right now.

Let's not forget that "Nephite" and "Lamanite" are political, not lineage terms. Remember when Jacob told us that "Nephite" meant those who were friendly to the Nephis and "Lamanites" were all their enemies? When any Jaredites joined either camp, they took the political name of the group they joined.

I am sure I said this very thing. The "Jews" being a sort of shorthand for "the chosen people".

I must have missed this. Please highlight the part that says the Jaredites are the forefathers of Israel, for I cannot find it. (And don't forget that the punctuation and paragraphing are not by Joseph Smith (or any LDS), but by a hostile typesetter who did not know the Book of Mormon story, and did not believe Joseph was a prophet.)

It makes no sense, though, as you have written it because the Jaredites had no descendants in the Old World, so Israel (and Abraham, their father) could not have sprung from among them. That they may have been Semites (i.e of Shem) I have no argument, but they certanly were not the forefathers of Israel.

Lehi

God told Ether Coriantumr would be the last Jaredite living. This was his punishment for not believing Ether. I tend to believe God over what Nibley says. The names of Jaredites probably came from the book of Ether and Coriantumr himself.

If you read the second paragraph of the Title page, I think it's pretty clear! If you throw out the punctuation it still makes sense. The Book of Ether and the people of Jared came from Shem's seed(The chosen seed). Babel was built just after the flood. This is why they are referred to as the father's of the House of Israel.

[LeSellers]

God told Ether Coriantumr would be the last Jaredite living. This was his punishment for not believing Ether.

Except that's not exactly what Ether to relay on to Coriantumr:

20 And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the peopleâ??21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.

Where does it say that "Coriantumr would be the last living Jaredite"? Because, as I read it, it does not say this at all.

We should read what's there, not what we think is there, nor what we have been told is there. "Destroyed" does not equal "annihilated". What will be "destroyed" anyway? Is it the people or Coriantumr's (disputed) kingdom?

It does not say that only Coriantumr would live, but that the only reason he would live was so that he could see the fulfilling of the prophecies.

We read that the Nephites were "destroyed", yet Moroni clearly tells us that many went south and although they denied the Christ, they were still Nephites, and were not killed. Moroni, another Nephite, was himself not killed. "Destroyed" can mean many things, and is far from a synonym for completely erased form the face of the earth.

The last chapters of Ether are full of vast armies attacking each other, and of the two kings amassing all in their paths to join them (conscription), but it is such a sweeping saga that it, by necessity, misses the minutia. People have been swept into such armies throughout much of history. Yet not everyone of the ethnic group was destroyed or even press-ganged into military service. Many ran a way, or hid otherwise. There is no reason to assume that the words you seem to read as demonstrating that every man, woman, and child were marshaled into one army or the other. Ether writes only of those who were, not of those whom he did not see.

We have a similar situation in ancient England. The Romans destroyed the Iceni under Boudica, but refugees migrated and settled new lands and merged with their new neighbors.

I tend to believe God over what Nibley says.

Have you read Dr. Nibley's works on this subject?

You are free to believe anything you choose, but you are not free to insist that your interpretation of scripture is the only one possible, and expect me to reject what I have determined solely on your say-so.

The names of Jaredites probably came from the book of Ether and Coriantumr himself.

"Probably"? You expect me to take your word as gospel, and you offer "probably"?

If you read the second paragraph of the Title page, I think it's pretty clear! ... The Book of Ether and the people of Jared came from Shem's seed(The chosen seed). Babel was built just after the flood. This is why they are referred to as the father's of the House of Israel.

You keep making htis claim., I know it's probably just me, but please show where the Title Page says this, for I cannot locate these words, nor this idea.

THE BOOK OF MORMON

AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY

THE HAND OF MORMON

UPON PLATES

TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanitesâ??Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentileâ??Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelationâ??Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyedâ??To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof--Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentileâ??The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heavenâ??Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off foreverâ?? And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nationsâ??And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

Just to be sure you understand, I am not saying your conclusion about Shem is wrong (because I agree with you), but the evidence you offer does not support the case. The Title Page does not mention Shem. You can wave your hands all yoiu like, but you cannot make the words appear as you assert.

Lehi

[brightpath]

Except that's not exactly what Ether to relay on to Coriantumr: Where does it say that "Coriantumr would be the last living Jaredite"? Because, as I read it, it does not say this at all.

We should read what's there, not what we think is there, nor what we have been told is there. "Destroyed" does not equal "annihilated". What will be "destroyed" anyway? Is it the people or Coriantumr's (disputed) kingdom?

It does not say that only Coriantumr would live, but that the only reason he would live was so that he could see the fulfilling of the prophecies.

We read that the Nephites were "destroyed", yet Moroni clearly tells us that many went south and although they denied the Christ, they were still Nephites, and were not killed. Moroni, another Nephite, was himself not killed. "Destroyed" can mean many things, and is far from a synonym for completely erased form the face of the earth.

The last chapters of Ether are full of vast armies attacking each other, and of the two kings amassing all in their paths to join them (conscription), but it is such a sweeping saga that it, by necessity, misses the minutia. People have been swept into such armies throughout much of history. Yet not everyone of the ethnic group was destroyed or even press-ganged into military service. Many ran a way, or hid otherwise. There is no reason to assume that the words you seem to read as demonstrating that every man, woman, and child were marshaled into one army or the other. Ether writes only of those who were, not of those whom he did not see.

We have a similar situation in ancient England. The Romans destroyed the Iceni under Boudica, but refugees migrated and settled new lands and merged with their new neighbors.

Have you read Dr. Nibley's works on this subject?

You are free to believe anything you choose, but you are not free to insist that your interpretation of scripture is the only one possible, and expect me to reject what I have determined solely on your say-so.

"Probably"? You expect me to take your word as gospel, and you offer "probably"?

You keep making htis claim., I know it's probably just me, but please show where the Title Page says this, for I cannot locate these words, nor this idea.

Just to be sure you understand, I am not saying your conclusion about Shem is wrong (because I agree with you), but the evidence you offer does not support the case. The Title Page does not mention Shem. You can wave your hands all yoiu like, but you cannot make the words appear as you assert.

Lehi

Thanks Lehi for your words. Here is the clue I believe that tells us the Jaredites were from Shem(Melchizedek's) seed. The second paragraph where it says. An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heavenâ??WHICH IS TO SHOW UNTO THE REMNANT OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL WHAT GREAT THINGS THE LORD HATH DONE FOR THEIR FATHERS(not shouting). The great thing was bringing them to the Americas and preserving them from Babel.

Coriantumr was th elast Jardite living. The end of verse 21 says it all."and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr. When the Mulekites found the Jaredite nation they found only ruins, bones, 24 plates, and Coriantumr. That's it. Furthermore if you read the chapter heading of chapter 15 it says, the Jaredite nation is utterly destroyed-Only Coriantumr remains. All the Jaredite people were gathered up into 2 camps. The camp of Shiz and the camp of Coriantumr.